*sigh* Gotta love family, right?

[rhoenix]

I got an email from my rather overzealously Republican cousin again. Normally, they're stupid "funny picture! wow!" types forwarded to a plethora of people from his @AOL.com address (which should say something on it's own). However, this one I'm tempted to reply to:

Do you believe in God?

NBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the highest
Number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls, and the Percentage was the same as this:


86% to keep the words, IN God We Trust and God in the Pledge of Allegiance
14% against.

That is a pretty 'commanding' public response.

I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't.

Now it is your turn ... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.
Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such
A mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having
God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Why is the world catering to this 14%?

AMEN!

If you agree, pass this on, if not, simply delete.


In God We STILL Trust

First off, "In God We Trust" was placed in the Pledge by "They're all Commies!" McCarthy back in the 50's to set us apart from those "Godless Commies" in Cold War-era Russia.

However, if he thinks this is actually valid reasoning, a cynical part of me thinks he's beyond reason anyway. If you think I should reply and set him straight, please help me do so. If you think he's beyond redemption (*chuckle*) however, please leave your thoughts as well.

Thank you in advance.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

86% to keep the words, IN God We Trust and God in the Pledge of Allegiance

14% against.

That is a pretty 'commanding' public response.

[...]

Now it is your turn ... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.
Therefore, I have a very hard time understanding why there is such
A mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having
God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

First off, you can tell him that Appeal to Popularity or numbers don't make something ok. Since I don't see any other argument comming from him...I don't see much else to say about that.

You might also just switch the particulars of his appeal to numbers argument with something devious, like slavery (placing the argument in the proper historical context, though). You can do this because he gives no other qualifying conditions for something we should or shouldn't cater to. He simply mentions "X is really popular and has a lot of people behind it, therefore I don't get why we don't do it and cater to the minority."

Why is the world catering to this 14%?

1. We don't have a majoritarian government; I suggest directing your friend to Madison and Hamilton's Federalist Papers where he can learn the majority doesn't get everything it wants merely because it wants it.


2. Because we have protections of a minority, we have a Constitution with provisions that create certain duties on behalf of the State and the people. Really, "In God We Trust" ought not even be on the money in the first place. It was an ad hoc event.

[Darth Wong]

Ah yes, the tyranny of the majority. And this same sort of Republitard will turn around and angrily complain about the harsh treatment of women in Islamic countries, despite the fact that the majority of people in those countries support the misogynist Sharia laws in question. Oops, could it be that the tyranny of the majority should not obliterate the rights of the minority? Or is that only true when we're criticizing Islamic countries?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I get the same things from my redneck relatives, and in answer to your question, yes, the blood is thicker then water fallacy says you have to love them. It never says you have to like them, or put up with their shit.

[Medic]

Thank god all the God-fearing members of my family weren't raised on a steady diet of hellfire and brimstone proselytization. They think it's a private matter.

You can point out the previous faults of appeal to authority; I'd like to add throwing Japanese Americans in camps in WWII... and the small fact that the 442nd Regimental Combat Team was the most decorated unit in the U.S. Army. Yes, that, the all-volunteer, Japanese unit.

Yes I'm blatanly stereotyping them as God-fearing, flag-waving, military-adulating Americans.

[Rye]

One nation under fraud would be more accurate. You can't point to this God, you can't mark him out as an america-shaped mass in the sky, and there are thousands of people that don't consider themselves "under" him in any real sense, nor would submit to his rule if he were real. It appears to be a mutually supportive delusion, and that cannot really justify discrimination against minorities, you should not be able to exclude people from citizenship or value just because they don't believe in your god. That is taliban thinking, you're not part of the christian taliban are you?

[Darth Servo]

I tried replying to one of those chain emails once. They never responded.

[Medic]

One nation under fraud would be more accurate. You can't point to this God, you can't mark him out as an america-shaped mass in the sky, and there are thousands of people that don't consider themselves "under" him in any real sense, nor would submit to his rule if he were real. It appears to be a mutually supportive delusion, and that cannot really justify discrimination against minorities, you should not be able to exclude people from citizenship or value just because they don't believe in your god. That is taliban thinking, you're not part of the christian taliban are you?

That's exactly what's going on, least according to one study discussed in our very own friendly, neighborhood N&P forum. Warning PDF Warning -- more in-depth article than the one at the top of the N&P thread.

Only immediately on-hand because by coincidence, I happened to re-visit both of these just Sunday.

[Darth Wong]

When you think about it, that's probably a large part of the acceptance of "intelligent design". It doesn't name God so it's perceived as open-minded and inclusive, whereas a pure scientific theory is godless and therefore wrong. The line between religions is far less prominent than the line around religions. When Americans are more accepting of Muslims than atheists despite the total lack of atheist terror attacks, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

[The Yosemite Bear]

When you think about it, that's probably a large part of the acceptance of "intelligent design". It doesn't name God so it's perceived as open-minded and inclusive, whereas a pure scientific theory is godless and therefore wrong. The line between religions is far less prominent than the line around religions. When Americans are more accepting of Muslims than atheists despite the total lack of atheist terror attacks, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

At least since 1917 that should read mike. (although the trade unions were largely socialist and athiest in backing, and the mine sabotage, and rail sabotage wasn't nearly as bad as the sensationalist newspapers tried to make it sound. the only people who really had a problem with Athiest terrorists were the eastern european countries that we're being plauged by nillists, (though I do recall nillist and anarchist terrorists being a minor problem in the US and Japan as well)

[kheegster]

Slightly OT question, but do the words 'In God we trust' on American currency originate from the McCarthy era as well?

[DPDarkPrimus]

You know, I just don't let my relatives find out what my email address is. It lets me bypass annoying chain spam rather elegantly.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I feel that it's not only the intolerance of that minority that makes me pissed off, but the whole persecution complex they have, despite holding all the cards. I, just today, mentioned in a thread about God's kindness on another board, that he's a total twat for killing innocents such as women and children because Sodom and Gomorrah dared involve themselves in anal sex.

What happens? One dipshit not only gets his panties in a twist, but reports the post to a mod. I fucking thread discussing critiques of this stupid sky pixie, and someone gets bent out of shape because I took apart their little rigteous justification for God killing people for trivial reasons.

[Rye]

I feel that it's not only the intolerance of that minority that makes me pissed off, but the whole persecution complex they have, despite holding all the cards. I, just today, mentioned in a thread about God's kindness on another board, that he's a total twat for killing innocents such as women and children because Sodom and Gomorrah dared involve themselves in anal sex.

What happens? One dipshit not only gets his panties in a twist, but reports the post to a mod. I fucking thread discussing critiques of this stupid sky pixie, and someone gets bent out of shape because I took apart their little rigteous justification for God killing people for trivial reasons.

Yes, that one is frequent on American/international boards. On british boards I've found the usual response is "why do you care? There aren't any fundamentalist christians or muslims around here, you're offending people for nothing, you're an atheist fundie." As if the shit in the middle east won't affect our lives here, and a war between the evangelicals and the muslims isn't realistic and a worldwide problem.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I just posted an essay from Dawkins' book, the one just after 11th September with the quotes from Douglas Adams. That tends to help matters, especially when winning over the borderline atheists over that place.