Looking for sources on pederasty in ancient Greece

[hongi]

Any suggestions for the topic of pederasty in the classical period (5-4th century CE)?

P.S What the hell is with the vitriol on the internets about Greek concepts of sexuality? I hear it all the time, the Spartans weren't really pederasts! It's those PC academics pushing their filthy, unwholesome views upon a glorious period of Western civilisation!

I exaggerate only a little.

[Thanas]

Any suggestions for the topic of pederasty in the classical period (5-4th century CE)?

Do you mean primary sources or secondary sources?

P.S What the hell is with the vitriol on the internets about Greek concepts of sexuality? I hear it all the time, the Spartans weren't really pederasts! It's those PC academics pushing their filthy, unwholesome views upon a glorious period of Western civilisation!

I exaggerate only a little.

Because it is self-projection. These guys love to think of the Spartans (= themselves) as vicious, noble warriors. You know, standing up to the badguys, with no consequences of killing them, raping their women and utterly wrecking havoc in their cities.

When facts enter this glorious time of self-projection and fantasizing, most of those people don't see it as a correction, they see it as an attack on themselves and their identity. (If they are Americans, you can also throw in a lot of Strong Sparta!America vs. weak, rich Athen!Eurotrash penis envy). This happens all the time. If I were to criticize the founding fathers of about any country, there will always be a significant percentage of people outraged at this attack on their heritage. Tribalism, nothing more.

[hongi]

Do you mean primary sources or secondary sources?

Sorry, I mean secondary sources. My Greek isn't up to scratch just yet for Xenophon et al.

[TC Pilot]

Read a translation?

Anyway, while ancient Greece is hardly a specialty of mine, I've read a bit of Plutarch and his Life of Agesilaus, King of Sparta, springs to mind.

Apart from the public aspect of the affair, he was irritated beyond measure for a more personal reason, namely his love for Megabates which had taken possession of him, although whenever the boy was present, he summoned up all his determination and struggled to master his passion. Indeed on one occasion when Megabates came up and moved as if to kiss him, Agesilaus turned away. The boy was embarrassed by this and drew back, and afterwards kept his distance when he addressed him, whereupon Agesilaus, who not felt upset and repentant at having rebuffed him, pretended to wonder what was wrong with Megabates and why he no longer greeted him with a kiss. 'It is your fault,' the king's companions told him, 'It was you who refused and took fright and turned away from his kiss, but even now he could be persuaded to come to you again. But this time, see that you do not shrink away.' Agesilaus thought for a while in silence, and then he said, 'There is no harm in your persuading him, for I think I would rather fight that battle of the kiss again, than be master of all the gold I have ever seen.' This was how he acted when Megabates was present, but when the boy was gone, he was so consumed with the fire of his passion for him, that it is hard to say, if he had come back, whether he would have had the strength to refuse his kiss.

[Norseman]

Any suggestions for the topic of pederasty in the classical period (5-4th century CE)?

P.S What the hell is with the vitriol on the internets about Greek concepts of sexuality? I hear it all the time, the Spartans weren't really pederasts! It's those PC academics pushing their filthy, unwholesome views upon a glorious period of Western civilisation!

I exaggerate only a little.

Goodness me! You've met followers of Adonis Georgiades? And you're not exaggerating at all this guy wrote a book called The myth of homosexuality in Ancient Hellas. More to the point his attitudes are very common among the nationalist greeks I know, most of whom claim that the British invented the lie of Greek homosexuality to cover for their own boy buggering ways. That second link of mine holds the various claims and quotes you'll need to debunk in order to deal with this theory.

[Setzer]

I don't think the Brits made up the myths of Zeus and Ganymede, or Apollo and Hyacinth. I'm just saying. If even the gods do it, you'd think mortal men would not consider it abhorrent.

[Norseman]

Maybe, but then again Zeus is technically married to his sister, sooooo... wouldn't take that comparison too far.

[Norseman]

By the way you can always cite Erotes by Pseudo-Lucian, which is a debate about the relative merits of male and female. Mind you some Greeks claim that this is the result of a liberal, San Francisco style author which cannot be taken as representative of upper class Greeks in general. Not sure what they'd say about Antinous and assorted other boytoys of the Roman Emperors, except maybe "They weren't Greek."

Speaking of the relative merits of male and female, there's an arabian nights tale called The man's dispute with the learned woman concerning the relative excellence of male and female. Even now most muslim countries are quite infamous for pederasty, as I'm sure you've heard. The point with this is that even if there are laws against something, as there are in the Muslim lands, that doesn't mean that everyone isn't doing it.

That said I'm sure that the Greeks really had and enforced rules against debauching the sons of free men, especially voters, or preventing male prostitutes from standing for office. Likewise they often condemned anally penetrating free boys, even if their father was okay with your relationship, as this was thought to make them effeminate. That however is hardly a blanket condemnation of sodomy.

But the people you're arguing with probably won't care for any of this.

[Samuel]

Maybe, but then again Zeus is technically married to his sister, sooooo... wouldn't take that comparison too far.

The Ptolemic Dynastry did exactly that.

[Norseman]

Maybe, but then again Zeus is technically married to his sister, sooooo... wouldn't take that comparison too far.

The Ptolemic Dynastry did exactly that.

Yes but in fairness that was an Egyptian thing, not a Greek thing.

[Thanas]

By the way you can always cite Erotes by Pseudo-Lucian, which is a debate about the relative merits of male and female. Mind you some Greeks claim that this is the result of a liberal, San Francisco style author which cannot be taken as representative of upper class Greeks in general. Not sure what they'd say about Antinous and assorted other boytoys of the Roman Emperors, except maybe "They weren't Greek."

The judgement on Antinous is still out.

[Norseman]

By the way you can always cite Erotes by Pseudo-Lucian, which is a debate about the relative merits of male and female. Mind you some Greeks claim that this is the result of a liberal, San Francisco style author which cannot be taken as representative of upper class Greeks in general. Not sure what they'd say about Antinous and assorted other boytoys of the Roman Emperors, except maybe "They weren't Greek."

The judgement on Antinous is still out.

How? How can the judgement still be out? How is it possible to even...

Never mind... I'm sure some learned doctor would tell us that the Roman emperors kept pretty boys around purely for their aesthetic appeal.

[Thanas]

How? How can the judgement still be out? How is it possible to even...

Never mind... I'm sure some learned doctor would tell us that the Roman emperors kept pretty boys around purely for their aesthetic appeal.

No. The question becomes a matter of politics. EDIT: To elaborate, there is a question of how much of the relationship was sexual, how much of it was propaganda to include local elites, and how much of it was just politics.