How prevalent was Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

[The Grim Squeaker]

I was curious as to whether any Greekophiles would know anything about the supposed higher levels of homosexuality in ancient Greece. Did it really exist, or was it just a case of any homosexuals simply having a higher profile without being discriminated against, and were cases of this higher than in comparable liberal western societies today (say in Europe, where there is a relatively low level of discrimination).

[Norseman]

Personally I would say that homosexuality was about as common as it is today, nor was it anymore prevailent. However look at the societies where this Greek pederasty developed, then look at how those societies saw and treated women. Ancient Greece could be fairly hard on women, much like say the Middle East. Under such circumstances a boy or a young somewhat effeminate male is very handy: He won't get pregnant, you can take him with you wherever you go, he's got no virginity to preserve so his family won't cause trouble, and since you're both men you probably share quite a few interests.

For that matter you could look at boy's schools and other all male communities and see what kind of behaviour develops there.

[TC Pilot]

Depends on how one would define homosexuality, I suppose. In Greek society, there was nothing incompatible with young men having sexual relationships with each other and later having wives and children. Agesilaus, the Spartan king I mentioned in the pederasty thread, had one. Alexander the Great probably had one with Hephaestion. Does that make them homosexual, then? Bisexual? Neither?

[Norseman]

Back in the day, though they realised that some people were exclusively drawn to one gender or another, they didn't really have a homosexual identity as such. There's some absolutely fascinating literature on the subject though, especially in regards to astrology.

[Thanas]

Personally I would say that homosexuality was about as common as it is today, nor was it anymore prevailent. However look at the societies where this Greek pederasty developed, then look at how those societies saw and treated women. Ancient Greece could be fairly hard on women, much like say the Middle East.

Elaborate, please. As it stands, your statement is not really a good one.

[Setzer]

I remember reading an opinion that homosexuality was prevalent in cultures where women were viewed as inferiors, and a homosexual relationship was the only way a man could really love his equal.

[Norseman]

I remember reading an opinion that homosexuality was prevalent in cultures where women were viewed as inferiors, and a homosexual relationship was the only way a man could really love his equal.

That is part of it, another part of it is that if women are unavailable to young men they tend to turn to other men. For instance custom in many Middle-Eastern countries is that young men who can't get married yet seeks out teenage boys for sexual intercourse. The older partner is general the active and provides gifts and protection to the younger. This is surprisingly similar to the descriptions of such activities in ancient Greece. Though in Greece the institution was developed further. I'm told that there were similar customs in ancient Japan, but I don't feel comfortable elaborating on that.

So if a society requires considerable assets to form a family, restricts access to women, and views women as altogether inferior to men, then some sort of homosexual culture is likely to arise.

[Gil Hamilton]

That is part of it, another part of it is that if women are unavailable to young men they tend to turn to other men. For instance custom in many Middle-Eastern countries is that young men who can't get married yet seeks out teenage boys for sexual intercourse. The older partner is general the active and provides gifts and protection to the younger. This is surprisingly similar to the descriptions of such activities in ancient Greece. Though in Greece the institution was developed further. I'm told that there were similar customs in ancient Japan, but I don't feel comfortable elaborating on that.

So if a society requires considerable assets to form a family, restricts access to women, and views women as altogether inferior to men, then some sort of homosexual culture is likely to arise.

You're right on the Japanese part, at least in some eras. In the Edo era, homosexual relations weren't uncommon and not considered THAT weird between warriors. They did so for the same reason a great many warrior cultures do, because women aren't the equal of men and cannot be warriors, thus one can never really have a profound relationship with a women. Passion is something that exists between men because only men are fully capable of profound emotion and reasion (at least, the conceit is), and thus only real relationships between men are enduring. Samurai even published books on the matter and told stories of great loves between male Samurai warriors.

So homosexuality existed for good proper chauvanist warrior culture reasons, much like it did in Greece and Rome and other places. This cultural artifact in Japanese warrior culture only really went away when the country became open to Western culture and missionaries, and the Meiji Revolution happened, where the Japanese, for the most part, were convinced that it was a Bad Thing by growing western influence, particularly in the Showa era.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think it can be said that the number of homosexuals was the same in ancient times as the present but in Greece in particular the number of bisexuals was much higher--people who would opportunistically have sex with men or women depending on circumstances. The "true"homosexuals probably tended in many respects to fulfill the roles of catamites and so on (with obvious exceptions for those more interested in competing in a masculine world), whereas the bisexual men... Fulfilled all normal male social roles, including occasionally having sex with women, at least often enough to sire heirs, and then, per the standards of the time, also engaged in sexual relations with other men, but particularly with younger and effeminate boys, and of course castrati and other forms of eunuchs.

[Elfdart]

I remember reading an opinion that homosexuality was prevalent in cultures where women were viewed as inferiors, and a homosexual relationship was the only way a man could really love his equal.

The problem with that theory is that so many cultures have been misogynistic it would be hard to tell. Certainly in the modern world, homophobes tend to hate women as well. In fact, they hate "fags" because they are considered the one thing worse than female: a male who acts like a female.

I remember reading somewhere that while homosexuality in Greece and Rome wasn't considered a sin in and of itself, it was considered bad form for the higher-status male to be poked by one of lower status. The higher-ranking male was expected to "pitch" rather than "catch".

[Norseman]

I remember reading somewhere that while homosexuality in Greece and Rome wasn't considered a sin in and of itself, it was considered bad form for the higher-status male to be poked by one of lower status. The higher-ranking male was expected to "pitch" rather than "catch".

I read a book that dealt with that called Love Between Women: Early Christian Responses to Female Homoeroticism but it's more than just Christianity and lesbianism. Basically it discusses how the Christian view on sexuality was greatly influenced by that of the Greco-Roman world.

Seeing as how the boundary was between the active (male) and the passive (female) it was considered perfectly acceptable for a male to actively penetrate both men and women. It was however shameful for a man to be penetrated, some of the early Christians went to great trouble to explain that they weren't just angry with the passive male but that the active male was also sinning. Anyway part of this Greco-Roman attitude was that women had to be passive, so a woman who took the active role in a lesbian relationship had to be unnatural. Opinions were divided on whether the passive female was acting acceptably (by being passive) or inappropriately (by being with another woman).

Finally you might want to read what Lucian of Samosata (who by the way you would probably like) said about lesbians. It's very amusing and surprisingly modern in its attitudes.