Background:
Lately I have been trying to read up on western europe and the period of the early Merovingians. mostly between the Battle of Vouillé in 507 and the Gothic warof 535-554.
So far most of it has been just getting the grasp of things using the internet to see who is connected to who and the wheres and whens. But then when trying to find good sources on the era I find that very few "new" books cover this period and if they do they are usually french translations. Which makes me a bit suspicious of a nationalistic bias for the Salian Franks.
So first and foremost I am looking for good books (or websites) that cover the era.
After that I have been running into some questions and some things which I thought was myth and not fact. So I wondered if someone could help me finding the answers to some of these questions?
1) What is the big deal with the frankish throwing axe? There are a lot of references to it, but I was under the impression that this is something which was widely used by all the teutonic tribes of this era. Like the Angles/Jutes/Saxons. Would the franks employ them in a specific way that was unique? Or was it the quantity that the franks had them in that was unique?
2) I have difficulties getting good description of the frankish tactics of the era. Anything I found is about later tactics by Charlemagne or later Merovian tactics.
One thing that I have read startled me since I thought that it was a myth and that is when they defeat the saxons it is mentioned that the franks used their horses in battle but that the saxons only used them for logistics. But I think that I have seen mentions of a saxon cavalry so that must be false right?
3) What happened to the vandals? They go from a major force in 450-475, then they decline into some third rate punching toy by the 520's. Was it only the personal ineptitude of Thrasamund or is there some greater scheme I am missing? Is it the rise of the berbers? I could not find any reliable sources to this.
4) How big a deal is the imprisonment and death of pope John I by Theodoric and the forced appointment of Pope Felix IV?
The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
Moderator: K. A. Pital
Re: The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
If you want to really learn about the period, become an archaeologist, not a historian.Spoonist wrote:So far most of it has been just getting the grasp of things using the internet to see who is connected to who and the wheres and whens. But then when trying to find good sources on the era I find that very few "new" books cover this period and if they do they are usually french translations. Which makes me a bit suspicious of a nationalistic bias for the Salian Franks.
So first and foremost I am looking for good books (or websites) that cover the era.
Though I haven't read much at all on the period, I did stumble upon a newly-published survey history by Chris Wickham called The Inheritance of Rome: Illuminating the Dark Ages, 400-1000 that I think might suit what you're looking for. It should help you answer question 3, as well.
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Re: The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
Thanks but not thanks. Were I come from there are not that many jobs for the archeologists and if they do exist they are temporary only. An acquaintance of mine after 10 years as an archeologist had only had 2 years of work as one. The rest she had to take whatever was available, and that was after 4 years of training...TC Pilot wrote:If you want to really learn about the period, become an archaeologist, not a historian.
Great, he had an earlier book as well which was on sale. So thanks very much for the tip.TC Pilot wrote:Though I haven't read much at all on the period, I did stumble upon a newly-published survey history by Chris Wickham called The Inheritance of Rome: Illuminating the Dark Ages, 400-1000 that I think might suit what you're looking for. It should help you answer question 3, as well.
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Re: The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
Question: when speaking about the 520s, are you referring to their wars against Belisarius? I'm not saying you are, but if you were, that might explain a lot of it right there; the guy was a legendary genius, after all.Spoonist wrote:3) What happened to the vandals? They go from a major force in 450-475, then they decline into some third rate punching toy by the 520's. Was it only the personal ineptitude of Thrasamund or is there some greater scheme I am missing? Is it the rise of the berbers? I could not find any reliable sources to this.
Not all of it, I'm sure, but a lot.
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Re: The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
I recall that it was a combination of four things:Spoonist wrote: 3) What happened to the vandals? They go from a major force in 450-475, then they decline into some third rate punching toy by the 520's. Was it only the personal ineptitude of Thrasamund or is there some greater scheme I am missing? Is it the rise of the berbers? I could not find any reliable sources to this.
1. lack of respect for Gaiseric's successors by both the Vandal nobility and their neighbours
2. Moorish uprisings (related to 1)
3. Internal conflict between the Catholic and Arian factions
4. The Byzantines signed a peace treaty with the Persians in 532 which freed them up to take military action in the west
I'm sure someone can give a more detailed breakdown on the details.
Re: The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
Belisarius also attacked when he knew the Vandal fleet was away fighting at Sardinia which also probably meant a decent portion of the army was gone as well.Simon_Jester wrote:Question: when speaking about the 520s, are you referring to their wars against Belisarius? I'm not saying you are, but if you were, that might explain a lot of it right there; the guy was a legendary genius, after all.Spoonist wrote:3) What happened to the vandals? They go from a major force in 450-475, then they decline into some third rate punching toy by the 520's. Was it only the personal ineptitude of Thrasamund or is there some greater scheme I am missing? Is it the rise of the berbers? I could not find any reliable sources to this.
Not all of it, I'm sure, but a lot.
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Re: The Merovingians and Ostrogoths of 507-554
After reading further I think I was trying to over simplify things. It seems that there are a hundred little things that where going on, all of which led to a "downfall". Also it seems that they had the old "great leader" trump card in the 450's. Like so many before.Twigler wrote:I recall that it was a combination of four things:Spoonist wrote: 3) What happened to the vandals? They go from a major force in 450-475, then they decline into some third rate punching toy by the 520's. Was it only the personal ineptitude of Thrasamund or is there some greater scheme I am missing? Is it the rise of the berbers? I could not find any reliable sources to this.
1. lack of respect for Gaiseric's successors by both the Vandal nobility and their neighbours
2. Moorish uprisings (related to 1)
3. Internal conflict between the Catholic and Arian factions
4. The Byzantines signed a peace treaty with the Persians in 532 which freed them up to take military action in the west
I'm sure someone can give a more detailed breakdown on the details.
What I am leaning towards is that they based lots of their strategy on piracy & plunder, so they where perceived stronger. It is always easier to plunder and go home than to actually conquer a place. It is also not a secure revenue stream when your neighbours get their act together. So it led to over confidence and a few big losses with high casaulties to take away the drive.