No Muslims in the New World

[StarshipTitanic]

The natives would certainly be "assholes" from the point of view of the Vikings! They'd go home and say, "Brunhilda, I went to the new world and these little guys wouldn't stand still for me to stab them! Then when I finally stabbed them, they freaked out and threw spears and rocks... They broke the horns off that new helmet you gave me for our anniversary. To hell with that place."

This is simplistic view. The Vikings were also traders and Newfoundland had wood and fur, both valuable goods for the Greenland colonies which had neither. Plus, the Vikings returned several times so their reception by the Inuit surely was not universally hostile.

[Lonestar]

Not really. Coyote is referring to fist hand accounts of Vikings stabbing the Natives to see if they bled like "real people".

[Thanas]

Not really. Coyote is referring to fist hand accounts of Vikings stabbing the Natives to see if they bled like "real people".

Which are sourced where?

[Lonestar]

Which are sourced where?

I recall reading it from this book. I'm at work(work the graveyard shift), but when I get home I'll quote chapter and verse, if you want.

[Thanas]

I'd be more interested in the primary sources, where Diamond is getting his information from.

[Lonestar]

I'd be more interested in the primary sources, where Diamond is getting his information from.

Well then I'll be sure to look for the footnote then.

[Twigler]

I'd be more interested in the primary sources, where Diamond is getting his information from.

Historia Norvegiae, but the quote has been taken out of context. They didn't stab them to see if they would bleed. They just noticed that these "Skaelings" bled differently. Still, not the best start to international relations. I also doubt if this was a good source to use in Diamond's book. It sounds like the original quote was already far removed from a primary account:

From http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/ ... Passio.pdf

Greenland is cut off from these by icy crags. This
country, which was discovered, settled and confirmed in the
universal faith by Icelanders, is the western boundary of
Europe, almost touching the African islands where the waters
of ocean flood in.
Beyond the Greenlanders some manikins
have been found by hunters, who call them Skrælings.
Weapon wounds inflicted on them from which they will survive grow
white without bleeding, but if they are mortal the blood
hardly ceases flowing. But they lack iron completely: they
use whales’ teeth for missiles, sharp stones for knives.

[Lonestar]

I'd be more interested in the primary sources, where Diamond is getting his information from.

Alright, I was remembering more from what Diamond was inferring from a brief blurb from A History of Norway preserved in a "15th Century Manuscript". He prefaces the quote by remarking that it should how the nOrse first encountered the Inuits(it doesn't actually say so in the quote)

Farther to the north beyond the Norse settlements, hunters have come across small people whome they call skraelings. When they are stabbed with a nonfatal wound , their wounds turn white and they don't bleed, but when they are mortally wounded, they bleed incessantly.

Diamond states that this is a "matter of fact tone" and suggests that the Norse had a bad attitude to start with with the Inuit.(his words)

His bibliography sucks, by the way. There are not foot notes. Just a listing of sources at the rear of the book divided by chapter with no detailed notation as to what claims in the chapter came from what source. In fact the whole bibliography is listed as "further readings", so your guess is as good as mine.

EDIT: Twigler found it

[Thanas]

This is pretty bad form on Diamond's part then - I remembered the thing Twigler posted, but I had never heard of a "stab first to see if they are men" attitude. In any case, that is taking things pretty much out of context, but given that Diamond's other viewpoints about the vikings were challenged as well in the field, I wonder if he is not just stringing stuff together according to what he thinks instead of careful research. Kinda like a lot of details getting lost in a big picture.

[The Dark]

Screw you back asshole. I was making a casual reference to Columbus who figured the distance around the planet worng and then refused to accept that fact when others pointed out the mistakes he was making. If North and South America had not been in the way Columbus and the crews of his 3 ships would have fucking starved to death long before they hit the eastern coast of Asia.

No, you did not just talk about Columbus. You spoke in the plurality,

This enticed some enterprising and geography challenged people in various Christian countries to find other routes to the Far East for trade.

indicating you meant far more people than columbus.

Your right. He was from Italy, unless he was the only Italian on the trip he must have convinced then. Then he also convinced the King, Queen, Court, and advisors of the court of Spain that his incorrect measurements were in fact correct.

His family was in Genoa, which was ruled by Milan at the time. However, there's some evidence that they were conversos who left Spain for Italy - even when writing to people in Genoa, Colon always wrote in Castilian, not Italian, he used what appears to be a Hebrew cartouche of the sh'ma, and his logs make reference to Jewish holidays. The fact that he wrote his last name as Colon is also unusual - the typical Spanish name was Colom or Colombo, but Colon was a common variant among conversos and marranos. Consuelo Varela also noted in Cristóbal Colón: Textos y documentos completos that there are identifiable Hebrew persons among the crews of Colon's ships. The voyage departed on August 3, 1492, rather than the original date of August 31. Colon also insisted the crew all be aboard ship by August 2. This date was the deadline for all Jews to leave the soil of Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella's expulsion order. By moving the date up and moving his crew aboard a day early, his voyage complied by having his Jewish crewmembers off Spanish soil and in the middle of the harbor, where caravels anchored due to their deeper draft.

Colon likely was the only Italian aboard. The Santa Maria was owned and captained by Juan de la Cosa of Cantabria, and the Pinzon brothers (owners and captains of the two caravels) were from Palos de Frontera, which is where the first expedition sailed from. Virtually the entire crew was Andalusian. Alice Bache Gould pieced through the archives in Spain, and the names of all 87 crewmembers of the first voyage are definitively known.

Also, the advisers of the court of Spain who recommended Colon were Luis de Santange (a "Court Jew" who offered to finance the entire voyage out of his private wealth), Rabbi Abraham Zacuto (astronomer and author of the Tables of Navigation), and Zacuto's student Joseph Vecino, physician to John II of Portugal. Columbus was using Zacuto's Tables to make his voyage, so if he was "geographically challenged," so was the Jewish court of Spain.

As far as why the Muslims didn't sail west, recall Colon's goal - to sail to Asia. The Muslim nations already had a land route to Asia.

If North and South America had not been in the way Columbus and the crews of his 3 ships would have fucking starved to death long before they hit the eastern coast of Asia.

Untrue. His ships carried a year of supplies. The trip to the Caribbean from the Canaries (3,877 miles) took five weeks. The distance from Las Palmas de Gran Canaria to Calicut, India (where da Gama would land 6 years later) is about 6,000 miles. At the speed Colon's ships were sailing, even if you triple that distance, the voyage would take barely more than half of the supplies aboard. At the rate the ships sailed, and with the supplies he had, on an Earth with no land, he could have sailed around the world five times at the equator before running out. Do some fucking research next time. It'll make you look like less of a dumbass.

[Samuel]

At the speed Colon's ships were sailing, even if you triple that distance, the voyage would take barely more than half of the supplies aboard. At the rate the ships sailed, and with the supplies he had, on an Earth with no land, he could have sailed around the world five times at the equator before running out. Do some fucking research next time. It'll make you look like less of a dumbass.

Wow. I didn't know he was that well prepared- I thought he thought the Earth was smaller than it was. However, given the extreme mortality rates that sea voyages took in those days would the crew have survived?

[StarshipTitanic]

At the speed Colon's ships were sailing, even if you triple that distance, the voyage would take barely more than half of the supplies aboard. At the rate the ships sailed, and with the supplies he had, on an Earth with no land, he could have sailed around the world five times at the equator before running out. Do some fucking research next time. It'll make you look like less of a dumbass.

Wow. I didn't know he was that well prepared- I thought he thought the Earth was smaller than it was. However, given the extreme mortality rates that sea voyages took in those days would the crew have survived?

Columbus did think the world was smaller but he was also a cautious and thoughtful planner. He was also supposed to visit the Emperor of China (who they still thought was a Mongol khan) before he returned so it made sense to have enough supplies for an extended visit.

If he actually crossed the distance without making any landfall, then his ships would have probably sunk from leaks. He was forced to wait a year for rescue after beaching two rotting ships during one of his later expeditions.

[Thanas]

I very much doubt all his ships would have sunk from leaks, given what we know of the quality of spanish shipbuilding and given that his ships of the initial expedition did not seem to be rotten. Especially the Niña performed very well with her miles travelled and the Pinta was said to be the fastest of his ships which also performed quite well. .

[The Dark]

At the speed Colon's ships were sailing, even if you triple that distance, the voyage would take barely more than half of the supplies aboard. At the rate the ships sailed, and with the supplies he had, on an Earth with no land, he could have sailed around the world five times at the equator before running out. Do some fucking research next time. It'll make you look like less of a dumbass.

Wow. I didn't know he was that well prepared- I thought he thought the Earth was smaller than it was. However, given the extreme mortality rates that sea voyages took in those days would the crew have survived?

Columbus did think the world was smaller but he was also a cautious and thoughtful planner. He was also supposed to visit the Emperor of China (who they still thought was a Mongol khan) before he returned so it made sense to have enough supplies for an extended visit.

If he actually crossed the distance without making any landfall, then his ships would have probably sunk from leaks. He was forced to wait a year for rescue after beaching two rotting ships during one of his later expeditions.

The only one of his ships that had problems on the original voyage was Santa Maria, which ran aground in shallow water off Hispaniola. The rotting ships abandoned on the 1502 voyage had already survived a hurricane that sank 24 of 28 ships sent off by Governor Ovando (all of the ships he kept survived), which suggests they weren't that rotten. The ships, post-hurricane, sailed from Hispaniola to Honduras, up the coast to Panama, before he ran his last ship aground (again), this time off Jamaica, leading to the need for rescue. Those four ships and the Santa Maria were the only ships lost that I'm aware of during the four voyages.

[StarshipTitanic]

I very much doubt all his ships would have sunk from leaks, given what we know of the quality of spanish shipbuilding and given that his ships of the initial expedition did not seem to be rotten. Especially the Niña performed very well with her miles travelled and the Pinta was said to be the fastest of his ships which also performed quite well. .

Before he left the Caribbean, Columbus blamed hasty workmanship done at the Palos shipyard for leaks in both of those vessels. I'm not sure what kind of damage that implies because it could mean human error in caulking. Obviously the ships still successfully completed the return journey (with Niña repeating the feat) so maybe I'm being pessimistic. However, the round trip across the Atlantic is shorter than a single voyage from Spain to Asia through America and Columbus already had leak problems during the former voyage.

The only one of his ships that had problems on the original voyage was Santa Maria, which ran aground in shallow water off Hispaniola. The rotting ships abandoned on the 1502 voyage had already survived a hurricane that sank 24 of 28 ships sent off by Governor Ovando (all of the ships he kept survived), which suggests they weren't that rotten. The ships, post-hurricane, sailed from Hispaniola to Honduras, up the coast to Panama, before he ran his last ship aground (again), this time off Jamaica, leading to the need for rescue. Those four ships and the Santa Maria were the only ships lost that I'm aware of during the four voyages.

Why does the hurricane suggest the ships were not rotten? Columbus repaired his ships before exploring Honduras but he only careened one once he was there. That ship was abandoned because it was later trapped behind a bar. The second was abandoned due to the leaks during the return voyage and the last two had water almost to the decks by the time he beached them. Those ships were afloat for about a year, though I concede that the Caribbean is generally worse in terms of shipworms. But also remember he had the crew of four ships trying to pump two ships and the effort was failing by the end.

[The Dark]

The only one of his ships that had problems on the original voyage was Santa Maria, which ran aground in shallow water off Hispaniola. The rotting ships abandoned on the 1502 voyage had already survived a hurricane that sank 24 of 28 ships sent off by Governor Ovando (all of the ships he kept survived), which suggests they weren't that rotten. The ships, post-hurricane, sailed from Hispaniola to Honduras, up the coast to Panama, before he ran his last ship aground (again), this time off Jamaica, leading to the need for rescue. Those four ships and the Santa Maria were the only ships lost that I'm aware of during the four voyages.

Why does the hurricane suggest the ships were not rotten? Columbus repaired his ships before exploring Honduras but he only careened one once he was there. That ship was abandoned because it was later trapped behind a bar. The second was abandoned due to the leaks during the return voyage and the last two had water almost to the decks by the time he beached them. Those ships were afloat for about a year, though I concede that the Caribbean is generally worse in terms of shipworms. But also remember he had the crew of four ships trying to pump two ships and the effort was failing by the end.

I didn't say they weren't rotten, just that they couldn't have been that bad. The hurricane hit in late June (Columbus arrived at Hispaniola on June 29th; the hurricane struck after he anchored in an estuary). He then sailed to Jamaica and on to Guanaja, arriving there by July 30th. At this point, he's about one month from when the hurricane hit. Whatever repairs were done could not have been extensive, given the timeline. They landed on August 14th at Puerto Castilla, Honduras. Traveling up the coast, he reached Almirante Bay in Panama on October 16th. Storms delayed his return journey, and it was January 9th before he could return to the mouth of the Rio Belen, where one ship was lost during a battle with natives on April 6th. They were struck by another storm off the coast of Cuba, and the last ship's boat was lost in the storm. The ships were beached at St. Anne's Bay on June 25. That means the ships traveled around the Caribbean for almost a year after surviving at least one hurricane before being sunk. Given that the ships were already old, and the Caribbean is essentially the worst ocean for Teredo Navalis, they did well. The British and Spanish estimated in the Napoleonic era that a wooden ship, well maintained, would survive about ten years in the Caribbean. Columbus' old, less advanced, uncoppered ships survived a year while being treated roughly. If they were rotten at the beginning of the voyage, it could not have been horribly so, or the ships would have been destroyed far sooner by the weather experienced during the voyage.