Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Raesene »

JBG wrote: [...]

A modernised Reknown class with 4.5" AA as opposed to early 5.25" AA on KGVs would have been useful.
I can't find the reference, but some KGV-concepts (and also studies for Hood-rebuilds) had 20x 4.5'' instead of the 16x 5.25'' guns.
For AA, the 4.5'' would have been preferred, but the RN considered them too light to be useful defending against destroyers performing torpedo attacks. They requested at least 13cm guns for dual purpose artillery. An early 1930s study for a battleship was similar to the german and italian practise of using 6'' against destroyers and ~10cm as heavy AAA.

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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by TabascoOne »

I would think that the mass and space used mounting two types of secondary armament, even if either is ideal for their respective jobs, would completely outweigh the gains in efficiency. I know I'd much rather have 20 guns that aren't perfect for either job but will work than 10 of each that are ideal.

That said and speaking as someone who is far from an expert on naval operations, isn't screening against torpedo boats and destroyers what the escorts are for anyway?
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Thanas »

TabascoOne wrote:That said and speaking as someone who is far from an expert on naval operations, isn't screening against torpedo boats and destroyers what the escorts are for anyway?
You cannot always count on escorts so you need secondary armament. With it, for example, even a single heavy ship can defend itself against 6-12 destroyers, as the Battle of the Dogger Bank showed. Without, it is a big huge target just begging for a torpedo attack.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

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Sea Skimmer wrote:The odds are a lot less then one in six that damage in that area would cause such catastrophic flooding and such extensive loss of power. A direct hit on the shaft bracket is more like a 1/200 chance. USS Intrepid took a deep running torpedo hit in-between her rudder and her screw, not a very large space, and this did not lead to the loss of use of any shaft for example. The rudder was ruined.
A massive, immediate ship-killing flood like the one that got PoW is unlikely I agree; in that sense PoW was very unlucky (but then she was a very unlucky ship). However, the vulnerable area of the shafts and screws run for over a hundred plus feet and a hit anywhere in that area is going to cause a mass of grief. It only needs a very slight bend in the shaftline for the propshaft to start reaming the guts of the ship out. The damage tends to escalate from there. Even although immediate massive flooding might not take place, progressive flooding throughout the entire powertrain in inevitable. If the ship gets back to port before she sinks (progressive flooding is virtually unstoppable with the resources available at sea) she'll be in drydock for months plus before getting fixed. Even then, she'll never be quite the same again.

Intrepid was very lucky indeed; that torpedo must have been just outside the area where shaft deformation occurs.

By the way, shaft deformation was why many of the post-war DEs were single-shaft. The argument was that in a hull of that size, any blow big enough to cause shaft deformation on once side of a twin-screw would take out the other side as well. A single shaft being buried in the hull structure would have a better chance of escaping damage.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by JBG »

TabascoOne wrote:I would think that the mass and space used mounting two types of secondary armament, even if either is ideal for their respective jobs, would completely outweigh the gains in efficiency. I know I'd much rather have 20 guns that aren't perfect for either job but will work than 10 of each that are ideal.

That said and speaking as someone who is far from an expert on naval operations, isn't screening against torpedo boats and destroyers what the escorts are for anyway?
You are right. Mixed secondaries by WW2 were woefully wasteful of space. Look at the deck plans of the Twins, the Bismark klasse and the Yamato class. In fact Yamato later had some 6" guns removed to make space for more 5" guns. IMHO the US 5"/38 setups were the best but bear in mind that before that gun's developement in the mid '30s US capital ships could have two different 5" guns - a low elevation for anti-surface work and a high angle elevation gun for AA work. One was 25 calibre and the other, from memory, 52 calibre. The dual purpose gun, as noted above, was 38 calibre.

The 5"/38 was not the best for surface work, though adequate but it was good for AA with a relatively high rate of fire. so you have the standard US fast battleship fitout of 20 5"/38s (except South Dakota - she had 16, two turrets removed to make space for flag facilities). Standard later US cruisers such as the Baltimores and Clevelands had 12, 2 fore, two aft and 4 on each beam amidship, all in the standard US navy twin turret.

(One calibre = the muzzle diameter so calibres are used as shorthand for the length of the barrel)

I agree with the second point. Capital ships are too expensive to not be escorted by smaller, faster craft. The RN even had classes of cruisers and destroyers that were designed specifically for fleet work, such as Arethusa and her sisters.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Thanas »

^Nobody ever argued that they should not be escorted. That said, there were some situations in WWI when escorts could not keep up with BBs/BCs and those had to use their secondary armament to defend themselves. Which is why every BB still had a secondary armament that was also directed against ships.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by TabascoOne »

Ok, that's fair for the older ships as originally built. But by the 1930's ships like the G and H class of the Royal Navy were available that had the range to keep up with the battlewagons. In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to leave the MTBs and destroyers to them, and concentrate on AAA?
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

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TabascoOne wrote:Ok, that's fair for the older ships as originally built. But by the 1930's ships like the G and H class of the Royal Navy were available that had the range to keep up with the battlewagons. In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to leave the MTBs and destroyers to them, and concentrate on AAA?
Range was not an issue. Light fleet elements trying to keep up with battlecruisers going 27+ knots in heavy seas was. The heavier the seas, the harder it is for smaller units to keep up at high speeds. There is also the issue of not wanting to risk exposing your light units to enemy heavy gunfire.

That said, if you can get dual-purpose, why sacrifice one of the two modes just for a slight increase in AA?
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by TabascoOne »

Point taken, I hadn't thought about how heavy weather would effect the issue.

I'm not as sure about the gunfire, since the light units tended to hang back once the heavies closed in anyway, didn't they? I thought I remembered reading that the Japanese used to send their big guns in at the head of the fleet column, with lighter units trailing behind. This worked a lot better than the early USN way, which had the escorts out front and as exposed as you'd expect.

I could see having extra flexibility would be nice, depending on how big a difference it made. All I turned up in a quick google search on the subject was this table, which is kind of neat assuming it's accurate.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_second.htm

Judging by this, it looks like the 4" range weapons and the 5" ones had pretty comparable rates of fire, which would be the name of the game before radar directed AAA. So I'll retract my point on preferring the smaller caliber weapons in favor of the dual purpose type.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

JBG wrote:
You are right. Mixed secondaries by WW2 were woefully wasteful of space. Look at the deck plans of the Twins, the Bismark klasse and the Yamato class. In fact Yamato later had some 6" guns removed to make space for more 5" guns.
One has to remember, however, that the AA optimized secondaries could be used against surface targets as well. They were not exclusive AA guns but dual purpose guns. The Italian 90 mm guns were admittedly marginal against surface targets larger than a gunship or torpedo boat, but the French 100 mm, German 105 mm and the Japanese 127 mm "AA" guns certainly were powerful enough to seriously damage destroyers even if the sub-127 mm guns were far from ideal for the task. So the mixed secondaries were only a problem for AA defense, not really for defense against destroyers, especially since the 150-155 mm weapons were more effective than 127 mm guns would have been.

I am not saying that mixed secondaries were a good idea, but in the 1930s only the US Navy and to somewhat lesser degree the Royal Navy and the French Navy correctly estimated the relative threats presented by aircraft and destroyers. The US Navy ended up sacrificing some anti-destroyers firepower for better anti-aircraft firepower, which was ultimately the right decisions. The Royal Navy and the French Navy wanted to have the best of both worlds. The 5.25" DP was a only partially successful until the improved RP10 mountings for the Anson and Vanguard. The French 152 mm DP gun on the other hand were almost a complete failure for AA work and in fact the French had to replace some of them with 100 mm guns. Even after the war the French were unable to fix them completely. So it's not like uniform DP secondary guns were not attempted but only the US 5"/38 really hit the spot.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

Sorry about the double post, but I did not notice this until it was too late to edit my previous post:
TabascoOne wrote: Judging by this, it looks like the 4" range weapons and the 5" ones had pretty comparable rates of fire, which would be the name of the game before radar directed AAA. So I'll retract my point on preferring the smaller caliber weapons in favor of the dual purpose type.
Well, the US 5"/38 DP was a rather exceptional gun for its caliber and the mounts were good as well. Most other 5" or 127 mm guns had a lower rate of fire, typically around 8-10 rounds per minute. The German guns based on the 128 mm AA gun had a similar rate of fire as the 5"/38, but they did not reach service on any ships. The Russian 130 mm/50 DP mount also had a fairly good rate of fire but like the German ones they did not reach service during the war. The Bofors 120 mm M1942 had even higher rate of fire, but it too did not enter service until 1945. All of them were designed nearly 10 years later than the 5"/38 (in case of the Soviet 130 mm weapon the actual gun was designed only a few years later, but the DP mount followed several years after that).
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Raesene »

The RN and USN were also more concerned with saving weight to stay treaty compliant than the Germans or Italians.

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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by TabascoOne »

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Sorry about the double post, but I did not notice this until it was too late to edit my previous post:
TabascoOne wrote: Judging by this, it looks like the 4" range weapons and the 5" ones had pretty comparable rates of fire, which would be the name of the game before radar directed AAA. So I'll retract my point on preferring the smaller caliber weapons in favor of the dual purpose type.
Well, the US 5"/38 DP was a rather exceptional gun for its caliber and the mounts were good as well. Most other 5" or 127 mm guns had a lower rate of fire, typically around 8-10 rounds per minute. The German guns based on the 128 mm AA gun had a similar rate of fire as the 5"/38, but they did not reach service on any ships. The Russian 130 mm/50 DP mount also had a fairly good rate of fire but like the German ones they did not reach service during the war. The Bofors 120 mm M1942 had even higher rate of fire, but it too did not enter service until 1945. All of them were designed nearly 10 years later than the 5"/38 (in case of the Soviet 130 mm weapon the actual gun was designed only a few years later, but the DP mount followed several years after that).
Ok, so in short, for the USN it was a wash as far as whether they went with 4" or 5", so they naturally picked the heavier caliber. But for some of the others it was an actual decision.

Would this be a good time to point out we've wandered pretty far from U-boats?
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by JBG »

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
JBG wrote:
You are right. Mixed secondaries by WW2 were woefully wasteful of space. Look at the deck plans of the Twins, the Bismark klasse and the Yamato class. In fact Yamato later had some 6" guns removed to make space for more 5" guns.
One has to remember, however, that the AA optimized secondaries could be used against surface targets as well. They were not exclusive AA guns but dual purpose guns. The Italian 90 mm guns were admittedly marginal against surface targets larger than a gunship or torpedo boat, but the French 100 mm, German 105 mm and the Japanese 127 mm "AA" guns certainly were powerful enough to seriously damage destroyers even if the sub-127 mm guns were far from ideal for the task. So the mixed secondaries were only a problem for AA defense, not really for defense against destroyers, especially since the 150-155 mm weapons were more effective than 127 mm guns would have been.

I am not saying that mixed secondaries were a good idea, but in the 1930s only the US Navy and to somewhat lesser degree the Royal Navy and the French Navy correctly estimated the relative threats presented by aircraft and destroyers. The US Navy ended up sacrificing some anti-destroyers firepower for better anti-aircraft firepower, which was ultimately the right decisions. The Royal Navy and the French Navy wanted to have the best of both worlds. The 5.25" DP was a only partially successful until the improved RP10 mountings for the Anson and Vanguard. The French 152 mm DP gun on the other hand were almost a complete failure for AA work and in fact the French had to replace some of them with 100 mm guns. Even after the war the French were unable to fix them completely. So it's not like uniform DP secondary guns were not attempted but only the US 5"/38 really hit the spot.
Indeed AA optimised secondaries could always be used against surface targets within range. If too light then destroyers can shhot at you before you at them. Given good destroyer designs generally had guns 4.5" and above, a 4" secondary won't provide enough protection in this scenario. Having said that, IMHO 5" was the maximum (and actually optimum as it turned out) calibre workable for the DP role. And of them the US system was a standout success.

At least that is until the advent of reliable automatic 6" mounts.

Of course by then missiles had arrived...

It is all a case of trade offs, after all, and improving gun, fire control and ordinance technology changed the whole field as they matured.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

JBG wrote: Indeed AA optimised secondaries could always be used against surface targets within range. If too light then destroyers can shhot at you before you at them. Given good destroyer designs generally had guns 4.5" and above, a 4" secondary won't provide enough protection in this scenario. Having said that, IMHO 5" was the maximum (and actually optimum as it turned out) calibre workable for the DP role. And of them the US system was a standout success.

At least that is until the advent of reliable automatic 6" mounts.

Of course by then missiles had arrived...

It is all a case of trade offs, after all, and improving gun, fire control and ordinance technology changed the whole field as they matured.
Destroyer gun fire was not a major problem for battleships or battlecruisers; even the latter were usually armored well against guns up to 8". Surely 100-127 mm gun fire could cause some casualties and damage the superstructure, as well as destroy unarmored systems like radio and radar antennas, but the major function of capital ship secondaries was to prevent destroyers from making torpedo attack runs. Destoyer torpedos were big and could easily sink even the best protected capital ships with multiple hits or even a single lucky hit. That was also the reason why pretty much everyone except the USN wanted bigger than 5" guns as secondaries; the British 5.25" gun was also a compromise. Those navies believed than they would be needed to stop enemy destroyers before they could launch their torpedoes.

The US 5"/38 was not a entirely perfect gun for its role, either. It had a relatively low muzzle velocity, which made it less than optimal for AA work and gave it a non-exceptional range, although in practice range was not really that important. These relatively minor, but nevetheless real shortcomings gave the rise to the 5"/54 Mark 16, which (as indicated) had a longer barrel and fired a heavier profectile. The decision to make the projectile heavier was a mistake, however, since it increased gun crew fatigue and made the MV increase smaller than it could have been. Thanks to the heavy projectile it did have quite an impressive range for a 5" gun, which even modern 127-130 mm naval guns only match, but do not exceed.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by irishmick79 »

Another question.

If the Royal navy bulked up on the heavier tonnage to deal with a stronger German surface fleet, how would that impact the planning for amphibious invasions like Normandy? If the British and Americans deploy heavier surface units in support of invasion planning, would you still see the amount of destroyer support you saw on the beaches?
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

irishmick79 wrote:Another question.

If the Royal navy bulked up on the heavier tonnage to deal with a stronger German surface fleet, how would that impact the planning for amphibious invasions like Normandy? If the British and Americans deploy heavier surface units in support of invasion planning, would you still see the amount of destroyer support you saw on the beaches?
I think Normandy was based on the premise of a fairly weak German response on the sea. The Royal Navy might have focused on annihilating the latter before indulging on any risky operation like Normandy.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by JBG »

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
JBG wrote: Indeed AA optimised secondaries could always be used against surface targets within range. If too light then destroyers can shhot at you before you at them. Given good destroyer designs generally had guns 4.5" and above, a 4" secondary won't provide enough protection in this scenario. Having said that, IMHO 5" was the maximum (and actually optimum as it turned out) calibre workable for the DP role. And of them the US system was a standout success.

At least that is until the advent of reliable automatic 6" mounts.

Of course by then missiles had arrived...

It is all a case of trade offs, after all, and improving gun, fire control and ordinance technology changed the whole field as they matured.
Destroyer gun fire was not a major problem for battleships or battlecruisers; even the latter were usually armored well against guns up to 8". Surely 100-127 mm gun fire could cause some casualties and damage the superstructure, as well as destroy unarmored systems like radio and radar antennas, but the major function of capital ship secondaries was to prevent destroyers from making torpedo attack runs. Destoyer torpedos were big and could easily sink even the best protected capital ships with multiple hits or even a single lucky hit. That was also the reason why pretty much everyone except the USN wanted bigger than 5" guns as secondaries; the British 5.25" gun was also a compromise. Those navies believed than they would be needed to stop enemy destroyers before they could launch their torpedoes.

The US 5"/38 was not a entirely perfect gun for its role, either. It had a relatively low muzzle velocity, which made it less than optimal for AA work and gave it a non-exceptional range, although in practice range was not really that important. These relatively minor, but nevetheless real shortcomings gave the rise to the 5"/54 Mark 16, which (as indicated) had a longer barrel and fired a heavier profectile. The decision to make the projectile heavier was a mistake, however, since it increased gun crew fatigue and made the MV increase smaller than it could have been. Thanks to the heavy projectile it did have quite an impressive range for a 5" gun, which even modern 127-130 mm naval guns only match, but do not exceed.
That is a good point about the torpedoes. Especially with the arrival of the Long Lance torpedoes into IJN service. Unusually but perhaps sensibly many IJN destroyers carried reload torpedoes.

And also a good point about the 54 calibre gun. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? Slower rate of fire less handy ordinance and more bulky turrets with longer barrels to get in other turrets' way. Much better ASW weapons though. I really should get "Naval Weapons of WW2". Whitley and Friedman can take one just so far.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by JBG »

irishmick79 wrote:Another question.

If the Royal navy bulked up on the heavier tonnage to deal with a stronger German surface fleet, how would that impact the planning for amphibious invasions like Normandy? If the British and Americans deploy heavier surface units in support of invasion planning, would you still see the amount of destroyer support you saw on the beaches?
The RN had duties far beyond mere naval support of amphibious landings. I've heard it described as a global naval power on the strategic defensive. So lots of escort and patrol vessels, from corvettes up to cruisers like the County class.

Any impact would mostly be on diversion of resources from building landing craft and associated support vessels.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

JBG wrote: That is a good point about the torpedoes. Especially with the arrival of the Long Lance torpedoes into IJN service. Unusually but perhaps sensibly many IJN destroyers carried reload torpedoes.
The IJN "Long Lance" torpedo was probably the best destroyer torpedo of the war, but the torpedo boat and later destroyer torpedo attack threat was taken very seriously by naval tacticians and architects even before WW1. In fact it was the primary reason why Dreadnought battleships had secondary armament at all, since there was very little threat from the air before WW1. The main battery had too slow rate of fire and turret turning rates to engage anything smaller than armored (later light & heavy) cruisers effectively.

Already before WW1 torpedo boats got bigger and gained better torpedoes, which made some of the early secondaries like the British 12-pounder (3") guns obsolete and prompted the increase in secondary gun caliber. Pre-WW1 battleships typically mounted the secondaries in casemates instead of turrets, but the caliber was already up to 6". The big change during the interbellum was that destroyers replaced torpedo boats1 completely in some navies (most notably the RN and the USN) by taking over the torpedo attack role. This trend had of course started earlier, but after WW1 many navies did not introduce new torpedo boats at all. Some did, but they were generally larger than the pre-WW1 boats (typically around 600 tons, since anything less than 600 tons was not treaty limited) and the German torpedo boats eventually developed into light destroyers anyway. At the same time the problematic casemate mounted secondary guns of battleships were replaced by more flexible turret mounts.

1One must not confuse torpedo boats with motor torpedo boats. The latter were typically much smaller (up to 100 tons in case of the German E-boats / S-boote) and were suitable only for littoral waters whereas true torpedo boats were by WW1 usually oceangoing.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

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Marcus Aurelius wrote: I am not saying that mixed secondaries were a good idea, but in the 1930s only the US Navy and to somewhat lesser degree the Royal Navy and the French Navy correctly estimated the relative threats presented by aircraft and destroyers. The US Navy ended up sacrificing some anti-destroyers firepower for better anti-aircraft firepower, which was ultimately the right decisions. The Royal Navy and the French Navy wanted to have the best of both worlds. The 5.25" DP was a only partially successful until the improved RP10 mountings for the Anson and Vanguard. The French 152 mm DP gun on the other hand were almost a complete failure for AA work and in fact the French had to replace some of them with 100 mm guns. Even after the war the French were unable to fix them completely. So it's not like uniform DP secondary guns were not attempted but only the US 5"/38 really hit the spot.
There's another aspect to this as well. During the era when secondary batteries were regarded as a defense against torpedo craft, the caliber of secondaries used for that purpose was related directly to the size of those targets. The guns were selected for their ability to do a lot of damage to said craft quickly, before the latter could fire their torpedoes. In the early days (up to Dreadnought) the 12 pounder and its equivalents were considered perfectly adequate for this role. This is disguised because the pre-Dreadnoughts carried heavy "secondary" batteries of 6 inch and 9.2 inch guns or their equivalents. These were not anti-destroyer guns but were intended to be part of the ship's anti-capital ship armament, providing smothering fire with HE while the big guns provided penetrating and crushing power. That was the theory anyway. I put the secondary in quotation marks because those batteries of smaller guns were often regarded as the ship's primary armament and the quartette or so of big guns were secondary to them. The "anti-destroyer" (actually anti-torpedo-boat) guns were the 12 pounders and 3 inch weapons and their equivalents.

Now, several things happened in the early years of the 20th century. One was that battle ranges went up and experience showed that the heavy batteries of 6 inch and 9.2 inch class weapons really weren't worth the weight they absorbed. In fact, they were a liability because they meant that magazines for them were dispersed all over the ship. So battleships simplified their armament by concentrating on heavy anti-ship guns and anti-torpedo boat guns. So, we have Dreadnought with 12 inch and 12 pounders. The US did the same with its first class of Dreadnoughts that carried 12 inch and 3 inch guns. The French, Germans and Japanese kept the 6 inch and their equivalents in the ship layout but these were not anti-torpedo boat guns (note that the same ships also carried the 12 pounder equivalents for that role). Those 5.9 inch, 5.5 inch et al weapons were still part of the main battery and were intended for anti-capital ship work. The inclusion of those guns was a highly retrograde feature that showed the Germans, Japanese and French had completely missed the point. The Germans and French could be forgiven, in naval terms they were bungling amateurs. The Japanese had no such excuse; it was their great naval victory off Tsushima that had highlighted the uselessness of the medium-caliber batteries.

Another thing that happened was that torpedo boats started getting bigger. From 1905 onwards this process was fast as torpedo-boat destroyers were evolved to sink torpedo boats and then took over the latter's role. They weren't just getting bigger, they were getting faster and the torpedoes they carried were also getting larger, faster and longer-ranged. It was very quickly apparent that the 12 pounder, 3 inch and 3.4 inch guns used for anti-torpedo boat work were outclassed and inadequate. The requirement was changing; the new destroyers could fire from further out and make their attacks with less warning. This decreased the window of opportunity to sink said destroyers and that needed guns with longer range and heavier shells. Have a look at a 1914 JFS and the surge in size, speed and fighting power of torpedo boats as they evolved into destroyers is very obvious. So, the British went from 12 pounder to 4 inch, the US went to 5 inch. Note that on these ships, there remained only two types of gun, the heavy anti-capital ship guns and the light anti-destroyer guns. There was no secondary armament per se. Once again, the Germans managed to miss the point completely; they held to the intermediate-caliber guns and left the anti-destroyer task to the inadequate 3.4 inch gun. The Japanese and French wised up and they eliminated their light anti-destroyer guns completely. They introduced new caliber guns (5.5 inch) for the secondary battery and use dthem for anti-destroyer work.

By 1912, even the four inch and its equivalents were becoming regarded as ineffective. There was a lot of pressure to make the next jump up to six-inch weapons. The French and Japanese weren't worried; they were ahead of the curve with their 5.5s anyway. The Americans were quite happy with their 5 inch gun and the Germans were happy with their 3.4 inch. In Britain, there was a big debate over the anti-destroyer battery with one side claiming the six-inch was essential due to its range and weight of shell while the other claimed that the four inch with its high rate of fire was the better choice. The six-inch crew won that battle temporarily although they lost it later and the UK reverted to the four inch, then changed its mind again and went back to the six inch as destroyers continued to grow.

OK, now we can jump forward and we can look at the situation in the 1930s. Destroyers had grown a lot bigger, a lot faster and a lot better armed. Eight or even ten torpedoes were standard, guns were 4.7 inch or 5 inch while their speed had jumped from the high twenties to mid-thirties. Even the six-inch gun wasn't going to cut it as an anti-torpedo defense. So what were navies to do? The obvious "answer" to the big new destroyers was a heavier anti-destroyer gun. Was that going to be eight inch? Or 9.2 inch? Or 12 inch? Once again, the obvious answer was the wrong one; the fact was that no battleship of reasonable dimensions could carry an effective anti-destroyer battery. In fact, an effective anti-destroyer gun for battleships couldn't be designed at all. A gun that fired a shell heavy enough to cripple a destroyer quickly couldn't be fired fast enough to guarantee scoring a hit in the time available.

So, the anti-destroyer mission had more or less gone away. That's why "dual purpose" guns were adopted by the British and U.S.; they realized that with the anti-capital ship and anti-destroyer functions both gone, there was no point in looking for anti-surface capability. On the other hand, aircraft were growing threats and that was the new primary role for the secondary battery. Again, there was a fight over that (these things never happen quickly or cleanly) but the upshoot of the debate was the US 5 inch L38 and the British 5.25 L50. In fact, the row continued well after that point, the obvious results being the 4.5 inch secondary batteries on the modernized battleships and battlecruisers. The Germans (of course) completely missed the point and retained the 5.9 inch as a classical anti-capital ship secondary battery while replaced the old 3.4 inch with a 4.1 inch gun for anti-torpedocraft work - except that anti-torpedo craft role now included anti-aircraft.

So, the argument over whether Bismarck et al should have had dual-purpose "secondary" armaments or not misses the point. As the British and Americans defined things, she had a modern dual-purpose secondary battery, her 4.1 inch guns. The catch was that she had a traditional secondary battery as well - and therein lay the problem. A British or American design team in the German's shoes would almost certainly have thrown that battery of 5.9 inch guns away and installed additional 4.1 inch guns. After all, the 4.1 inch fired faster, was easier and faster to swing and train, wasn't weighed down with an armored turret and, to a 1941 destroyer, the difference between getting him by a 4.1 inch shell and a 5.9 inch shell wasn't really consequential. In either case, she'd live long enough to get her torpedoes off.

Imagine Bismarck with no 5.9s but 16 twin 4.1s instead of eight. She would have had a lot better AA firepower - and that might have saved her - and her anti-destroyer capability wouldn't have been any worse. What she would have lost was her anti-capital ship secondary battery - and that had been obsolete since 1905.

PS It should be noted that the above refers to why design choices were made; how the guns actually got used is entirely another matter.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Thanas »

There is another question I am wondering about - I know the renown and repulse had very extensive refits. Why was there no attempt made to strengthen their insufficient armor (especially their deck armor)? Was that practically impossible or just too costly?
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Raesene »

Thanas wrote:There is another question I am wondering about - I know the renown and repulse had very extensive refits. Why was there no attempt made to strengthen their insufficient armor (especially their deck armor)? Was that practically impossible or just too costly?
Renown's deck armour was improved during her pre-war rebuilt by adding armour plates over new magazines and additional plates to achieve constant thickness. Raven/Roberts write that the desire to retain the high speed limited the increase of protection.
In addition, I think the treaties permitted only a certain weight gain during refits/reconstruction.

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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Thanas »

That's interesting, do you have any more information about the cost and time period of her refit, as well as how much additional armor was added? I always thought improving deck armor would be hugely impractical.
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Re: Efficiency of the U-boat fleet

Post by Simon_Jester »

I would be interested to hear how the guns got used, if you have the time.
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