Was Von Braun even fucking necessary for NASA?

[Wanderer]

Lets see this man oversaw a slave labor operation that saw the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. Yet he got away with it because ZOMG he made a Ballistic Missile.

Yet, we had Charles Bossart come up with an improved V-2, the MX 774, with triple the range and double the payload when the US Military approached Consolidated on making V-2s for them. Bossart's team two biggest innovations (which became world standards for ballistic missiles since then) were the elimination of the airframe in favor of stressed skin tanks using internal pressure for rigidity and swiveling nozzles for rocket engines.

So what exactly did Von Braun bring to the table that he escaped the noose he so richly deserved, when we had a team at Consolidated that was shooting ahead of Von Braun?

Can anyone shed light on this?

[Broomstick]

First of all, I'd like a cite for "tens of thousands" of dead slave laborers. Yes, I know the fact he did use slave labor is not in dispute, nor is the fact that some of those people died. I am interested in confirmation that "tens of thousands dead" is accurate and not hyperbole.

Second, I am not versed enough in rocketry to state whether or not Von Braun's contribution was truly essential or not, but there is no question that the US (and probably the UK as well) did NOT want the man working for the USSR and one way to prevent that was to employ him in a US program. As it happens Von Braun didn't want to work for the USSR, either, so that goal was easily enough achieved.

Third, even prior to WWII Von Braun had the idea of going to the Moon or Mars or both. Not everyone involved in rocket science had such lofty goals. His mindset and desire to go into space may well have had an impact beyond merely his technical skills, which were considerable.

[Kanastrous]

I don't think that anyone else at the time had Von Braun & team's cumulative experience in rocket design and construction, even if other engineers were able to rapidly improve upon his wartime work.

FWIW the Russians claim that "their" Germans weren't particularly vital to *their* rocketry programs, and that what's-his-name (Russian engineering genius who died after a botched surgery) was the real brains.

[Kanastrous]

ghetto edit: Korolev, it was.

[Wanderer]

First of all, I'd like a cite for "tens of thousands" of dead slave laborers. Yes, I know the fact he did use slave labor is not in dispute, nor is the fact that some of those people died. I am interested in confirmation that "tens of thousands dead" is accurate and not hyperbole.

One Source for Dora, near Nordhausen

V-2 mass production was conducted at underground slave labour camps named Dora, near Nordhausen, Germany. About 10,000 slaves died of overwork or at the hands of their guards from the SS. These slaves were mostly prisoners of war, many were French and Soviet.

Any infringement of the rules resulted in the same penalty - death by hanging - many of the survivors of Dora - Mittlebrau remember such days as when Von Braun noticed damage to the guidance system of a number of rockets. He immediately ordered twelve workers to be hanged as a warning to others. In a little more than 18 months Von Braun witnessed over 20,000 men die in the terrible caverns of Dora - Mittlebrau.

Another site with same range of deaths

Immediately after the war, while America was building its own rocket program on the foundations of German technology, the horrible reality of slave labor used during V-2 production was concealed from the public. Only in the past 10 years, as prisoners’ histories have been published, have we begun to understand more. Estimates put the number of prisoners used by the Germans for V-2 production at - Mittelbau at more than 60,000. Over 25,000 of these were killed either by beatings, starvation, and sickness in the complex, or by the brutal efforts of the SS to relocate them before the Americans arrived in April, 1945. We now know that many of the most shocking “concentration camp pictures” that are seared into our common consciousness from this era were taken by U.S. troops as they entered the Mittelbau camps.

Global Security

At the end of August 1943, the first skilled prisoners arrived from Buchenwald to form a new subcamp with the undercover name of "Dora". Foreign workers under the supervision of skilled German technicians assumed an increasing burden; at Mittelwerk, ninety percent of the 10,000 laborers were non-Germans. Officials estimate that from 1943 until 1945, 60,000 prisoners worked in these factories. Of these, 20,000 had died from various causes including starvation, fatigue and execution.

A third to half of the slave labor, the numbers vary a bit depending on the source, died working on the V-2 which Von Braun supervised. Some where even ordered to be executed by Von Braun for sabotage.

[MKSheppard]

First of all, I'd like a cite for "tens of thousands" of dead slave laborers. Yes, I know the fact he did use slave labor is not in dispute, nor is the fact that some of those people died. I am interested in confirmation that "tens of thousands dead" is accurate and not hyperbole.

Okay fine; Broomy. Link

Yes, I know Wikipedia, but hell, what do you expect me to do in 5 minutes:

Basically, somewhere from 12,000 to 20,000 people died in the Mittlebau-Dora complex; making the V-2 the only weapon that killed more people making it than it did of the enemy.

[MKSheppard]

Yet, we had Charles Bossart come up with an improved V-2, the MX 774, with triple the range and double the payload

I'm revising my opinion of you; you apparently know about Bossart and the MX 774; which is definitely an obscure subject.

From the USAF official history on ballistic missiles:

The point of departure for the MX-774 was the V-2. As a structural engineer, Bossart immediately concerned himself with tackling the problem of the V-2's weight. He removed the double wall arrangement from the German missile and stored its propellant in two individual metal enclosures mounted inside the missile. In a single stroke, Bossart increased the missile's fuel capacity while also eliminating the internal tanks. What emerged was a sort of flying propellant tank with a power plant in the rear and an instrumentation package up front.

The V-2 also was deficient in that the entire missile was designed to reenter the atmosphere and, therefore, had to withstand considerable heat. Bossart, however, reasoned that after the missile was launched the only part needed to complete the mission was the warhead. Thus, if the warhead could be separated from the missile after burnout, it alone would have to be protected against heat. The result would be another savings in weight. Another advantage in devising a separating nose cone (which housed the warhead) was that it would reduce the drag on the missile, thereby improving its range.

Bossart and his team also removed the stiffeners that had supported the interior of the V-2's conventional airframe. They obtained structural rigidity in an ingenious manner, by utilizing nitrogen gas pressure to support the airframe. When all these innovations were taken together, Bossart's weight reduction program improved the V-2's airframe-to-propellant weight ratio by a factor of three.

The fourth, and perhaps the most important, MX-774 design innovation was Bossart's swiveling engines. Although the Germans had first conceived the idea and discarded it, Bossart was unaware of their work and arrived at his design independently. Previously, the only way to control the direction of flight of a rocket had been through insertion of movable vanes in the exhaust system. This method, however, retarded the exhaust flow and thereby reduced thrust by about 17 percent. By swiveling the engines, Bossart obtained better control of the rocket's flight. Bossart also kept the missile's fins (inspired by the V-2) as a form of insurance, although he was confident that the swiveling engines would suffice to keep the MX-774 stable.

Though I wouldn't be too hard on Von Braun's design team. He managed to put together a missile that was assembled by malnourished prisoners, and then driven around by semi-trained artillerymen and fired successfully. The big thing about the V-2 was that the whole thing was built to re-enter the atmosphere; the Germans had convinced themselves that the impact of a few more tons of missile parts in a coherent mass would improve the damage each missile did. So they spent a lot of money and time trying to prevent missile breakup as it approached it's target; despite the warheads generally breaking away and successfully detonating...

[Wanderer]

I'm revising my opinion of you; you apparently know about Bossart and the MX 774; which is definitely an obscure subject.

You be surprised how much we can think alike, the only difference is I rather America stay the fuck out of the rest of the World's business and solve its own damn problems, before it goes around trying to set an example. I also prefer assassinations before escalation. After all a single bullet in one head is far more preferable and cheaper than expending a 2,000lb bomb to hit the same head.

Though I wouldn't be too hard on Von Braun's design team. He managed to put together a missile that was assembled by malnourished prisoners, and then driven around by semi-trained artillerymen and fired successfully. The big thing about the V-2 was that the whole thing was built to re-enter the atmosphere; the Germans had convinced themselves that the impact of a few more tons of missile parts in a coherent mass would improve the damage each missile did. So they spent a lot of money and time trying to prevent missile breakup as it approached it's target; despite the warheads generally breaking away and successfully detonating...

Out of morbid curiosity did a few extra tons offer that much improvement to destructive capabilities or degrade it.

[K. A. Pital]

...there is no question that the US (and probably the UK as well) did NOT want the man working for the USSR and one way to prevent that was to employ him in a US program.

No, you could just not use him and actually trial and indict him.

Third, even prior to WWII Von Braun had the idea of going to the Moon or Mars or both.

So did Tsiolkovsky and Korolev, and many others in the rocket spaceship industry. And in the US too. To say that a former Nazi scientist was the only visionary out there would be really strange.

FWIW the Russians claim that "their" Germans weren't particularly vital to *their* rocketry programs, and that what's-his-name (Russian engineering genius who died after a botched surgery) was the real brains.

Well, technically, the staff of the facility and all drawings and plans and calculations were taken away by the Americans by the time the German rocket facility was turned over to the Russians; Korolev's team discovered a V-2 rocket hull (disassembled) and had to perform all calcs, "reverse-engineering" it.

More than that, Korolev indeed was more vital: little is it known that Russian captured German scientists worked, in a German-managed and German-staffed rocket design bureau, on a competing rocket project against Korolev's "R" series of rockets developed by his own Russian bureau. But they lost.

You know, I'd take Korolev over von Braun any day: Korolev himself suffered repression and was injustly judged - later to be freed and rise as the engineering genius so honoured by Soviet/Russian people.

Von Braun was a slaveholding nazi mastermind.

Which of the two is more sympathetic, a prisoner turned genius designer, or a genius designer who worked prisoner slaves to death?

[MKSheppard]

Well, technically, the staff of the facility and all drawings and plans and calculations were taken away by the Americans by the time the German rocket facility was turned over to the Russians; Korolev's team discovered a V-2 rocket hull (disassembled) and had to perform all calcs, "reverse-engineering" it.

They actually had far more than that. The very first two Russian mobile ballistic missile trains were actually captured German mobile V-2 launch trains.

Stephen J. Zaloga's "Target America" (which I checked out; cause Stuart recommended it) was really quite informative.

Following Churchill's request, Stalin allowed an Anglo-American team of missile specialists to examine the German test site [in Poland] in hopes of picking up clues about the V-2 missile. The Soviets delayed the team for nearly a month, by which time other evidence captured by the Polish underground had already reached London. Nevertheless, the team persevered and packed up some one and a half tons of material and parts. The crates were to be delivered to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough by Soviet authorities. On arrival in Britain, the RAF engineers were surprised to find that the Soviets had removed all the German missile parts and substituted miscellaneous bits and pieces of aircraft!

The Soviet Army formed its first ballistic missile unit, the BON (Brigada osobogo naznacheniya or Special Purpose Brigade) in July 1946 on the basis of an existing Guards Mortar (multiple rocket launcher) regiment. Commanded by Maj. Gen. A. F. Tveretskiy, the unit was equipped with the two special V-2 FMS missile-launcher trains. Tveretskiy's men accompanied the MTK engineers, learning the operation of V-2 missiles from German veterans. This unit was mainly intended to serve as a teaching establishment to form additional rocket units once quantity production of missiles began in the Soviet Union. It would also serve as the basis for the troops needed to fire test missiles once the program had matured sufficiently.

But I digress; I'll go on to your next point.

More than that, Korolev indeed was more vital: little is it known that Russian captured German scientists worked, in a German-managed and German-staffed rocket design bureau, on a competing rocket project against Korolev's "R" series of rockets developed by his own Russian bureau. But they lost.

Target America does go into this; the German design bureau IIRC managed to produce a design or two, and they went into low rate production for testing, but like you said, they lost against the native Russian bureaus.

[K. A. Pital]

The very first two Russian mobile ballistic missile trains were actually captured German mobile V-2 launch trains. [...] On arrival in Britain, the RAF engineers were surprised to find that the Soviets had removed all the German missile parts and substituted miscellaneous bits and pieces of aircraft!

Yeah, the "hunter-seeker" missions (IIRC, that's what they were called) picked up in 1944 - but they were able to capture the V-2 equipment itself, not the design team and the drawings and calculations, IIRC.

The R-1 had an inertial control system (by N.A. Pilyugin). The poligon we lost (with the team) was Mittelwerk. You took out 100 tons of equipment, Von Braun, his team. Two month later you had to give up Turingia mountains in exchange for basing rights in West Berlin, so the USSR got the remaining equipment, but no drawings, calculations or Braun's team.

German design bureau IIRC managed to produce a design or two, and they went into low rate production for testing, but like you said, they lost against the native Russian bureaus

Yes, so.

[PeZook]

Von Braun wasn't even that important ; It's just that most people are too ignorant to realize the American space program engaged almost half a million people directly involved with design, testing and production work of the space vehicles.

He didn't even design the entire Saturn V: his team only worked on the first stage, and all the important bits (stage separation, fuel mixtures, pumps...) was done by purely American designers.

So,all in all, Von Braun wasn't crucial to American rocket programs. They had plenty of local talent, and a very strong industry (American materials science was particularly crucial - in fact, I'd hazard a claim that if it wasn't for very well developed metalworking industry and material engineers, the US would've never went to the Moon).

It was crucial to the design of the F-2 (J-2? It almost eludes me...) engine of the Saturn ; The lack of such powerful engines was what doomed the Soviet N-1. It had to use almost 30 engines instead of 5 in the first stage, and it was pretty much impossible to get such a huge array working right.

So if you want a crucial component of the American space program, it would be much more fair to point to their engineers and industry, rather than a single particular German genius.

[Broomstick]

...there is no question that the US (and probably the UK as well) did NOT want the man working for the USSR and one way to prevent that was to employ him in a US program.

No, you could just not use him and actually trial and indict him.

Yes, they could have and did not. When he was first brought to the US he and several of his cohorts were held at a base in a desert, effectively prisoners, while it was debated what should be done with him.

Third, even prior to WWII Von Braun had the idea of going to the Moon or Mars or both.

So did Tsiolkovsky and Korolev, and many others in the rocket spaceship industry. And in the US too. To say that a former Nazi scientist was the only visionary out there would be really strange.

I did not say he was the only one - but Tsiolkovsky and Korolev were in the USSR (they are two of the reasons you guys launched Sputnik before we got anything up there) and while the US did have space enthusiastists they had to battle the contingent that thought rockets were just for war and blowing things up, and there was, I believe, more resistance to a space program than in the USSR, at least until Sputnik was launched. The US still might have had a space program without Von Braun but the fact is he was one of the personalities behind both the Mercury and the Apollo programs.

You know, I'd take Korolev over von Braun any day

The US probably would have been happy to take Korolev over Von Braun, too, but that wasn't an option for us.

(But thanks for giving us Igor Sikorsky)

Von Braun was a slaveholding nazi mastermind.

And I in no way denied that. I merely wished confirmation of the number said to have died under him as I had not heard it quantified before. I was aware he'd worked people to death and even had some executed, just not of the actual numbers involved. 10,000+ seemed rather high, but since there is actual evidence to back it up I have now filed the factoid under "Nazi atrocities".

Which of the two is more sympathetic, a prisoner turned genius designer, or a genius designer who worked prisoner slaves to death?

Oh, no question Korolev is the better man. It can certainly be argued that Von Braun should have been hung at Nuremburg but that's not what happened.

[Broomstick]

So if you want a crucial component of the American space program, it would be much more fair to point to their engineers and industry, rather than a single particular German genius.

This is why I mentioned point three in my initial post - Von Braun's greatest influence may not have been his technical skills but his personal drive to get into space. While on a technical level the guys fabricating parts may have been more essential than the Nazi genius they weren't the guy talking to policy makers. I'm not sure how much Von Braun did in the way of "talking to policy makers" but it would not surprise me if he greatest role was in the politics of getting these things done. Not that I'm saying it was - just that it could be, and that would also account for how his name got into the press rather than the names of other people who worked equally hard and were just as vital, if not more so.

[thejester]

Lets see this man oversaw a slave labor operation that saw the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. Yet he got away with it because ZOMG he made a Ballistic Missile.

It's not like von Braun pioneered slave labour - he was the technical head of a project, neither it's overall administrative head (Dornberger then Kammler, who suggested slave labour and built the facilities) nor some sort of pioneer in the field of slave-labour. Yes, he looked the other way but then he was hardly alone in moral cowardice. Given that Himmler was going to bump him off and he was only saved by the intervention of Speer, it can hardly be said that he was best friends with the regime.

[Kanastrous]

It was crucial to the design of the F-2 (J-2? It almost eludes me...) engine of the Saturn ;

F-1s were the main engines in the first stage.

There's an intact one parked out front of the old Rocketdyne facility, in Canoga park; used to drive by it every day on the way to work.

The lack of such powerful engines was what doomed the Soviet N-1. It had to use almost 30 engines instead of 5 in the first stage, and it was pretty much impossible to get such a huge array working right.

I was on a feature a few years ago (didn't make it to production) that involved the last N-1 being salvaged, refitted, and used for a moon mission. This meant spending a lot of time studying the available documents, so we could replicate parts as needed for the show.

That thing was scary.

[Wanderer]

Lets see this man oversaw a slave labor operation that saw the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. Yet he got away with it because ZOMG he made a Ballistic Missile.

It's not like von Braun pioneered slave labour - he was the technical head of a project, neither it's overall administrative head (Dornberger then Kammler, who suggested slave labour and built the facilities) nor some sort of pioneer in the field of slave-labour. Yes, he looked the other way but then he was hardly alone in moral cowardice. Given that Himmler was going to bump him off and he was only saved by the intervention of Speer, it can hardly be said that he was best friends with the regime.

Even if we except that as true, this excuses him how?

I really like an answer.

[Ma Deuce]

So did Tsiolkovsky and Korolev, and many others in the rocket spaceship industry. And in the US too.

Yep, I remember Robert Goddard came up with the idea of crashing a rocket into the moon back in 1920 (laden with flash powder so the impact would be visible through a telescope). Pity he didn't live a decade or two longer, I've always wondered what contributions he could have made to the US space program.

[K. A. Pital]

It's not like von Braun pioneered slave labour

It's not like Himmler "pioneered" it either. And being "not alone" in moral cowardice sounds hardly an excuse. The SS-man dilemma from the thread about "good SS-man in the KZ who continues to work as people are killed" was blasted to bits last time - the moral course of action against such a person would be indictment.

Note that other nations often indicted scientists and intelligence professionals from Nazi Germany, who were guilty of warcrimes, which the US routinely pardoned or was not able to prosecute.

[Dracofrost]

That may largely stem from our not so distant past treatment of Native Americans, and slave of African heritage. America has a long history of letting bad people do truly awful things to 'lesser' people and get away with it, so it shouldn't be all that surprising that we pardoned Von Braun just because we thought he'd be useful. Immoral and wrong, yes, but not really surprising.

Also, regarding Bossart and the MX774, the only had three launches, and all three were unsuccessful (if I recall correctly), whilst the Germans under Von Braun had hundreds of successful launches under their belt. Experience does count for something. Not trying to excuse the man, but just put in my $0.02 on why they probably didn't try him and used him in the space program instead.

[thejester]

Lets see this man oversaw a slave labor operation that saw the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. Yet he got away with it because ZOMG he made a Ballistic Missile.

It's not like von Braun pioneered slave labour - he was the technical head of a project, neither it's overall administrative head (Dornberger then Kammler, who suggested slave labour and built the facilities) nor some sort of pioneer in the field of slave-labour. Yes, he looked the other way but then he was hardly alone in moral cowardice. Given that Himmler was going to bump him off and he was only saved by the intervention of Speer, it can hardly be said that he was best friends with the regime.

Even if we except that as true, this excuses him how?

I really like an answer.

It certainly doesn't excuse him of moral cowardice, but if you want him to hang for that there's a few million others Germans who would need to join him. Your OP acted like the guy was the mastermind when in reality he was a cog in a much larger machine. He didn't suggest slave labor and he didn't seem to have much of a choice in its implementation. He could have protested it...and what? One man's effort against the monstrous nature of the Third Reich would do bugger all.

It's not like Himmler "pioneered" it either.

Oh please, there's such a massive difference between the two that it's absurd to compare them. Himmler was head of one of the most powerful empires in Nazi Germany. Braun was a pissy little technocrat who didn't even conceive the idea or implement it, merely choosing to turn a blind eye.

And being "not alone" in moral cowardice sounds hardly an excuse. The SS-man dilemma from the thread about "good SS-man in the KZ who continues to work as people are killed" was blasted to bits last time - the moral course of action against such a person would be indictment.

The difference surely being that a man who works in a KZ has got there through a process. Von Braun found himself working for the SS through the Byzantine politics of Nazi Germany, far above his level - and was almost executed by them anyway.

Note that other nations often indicted scientists and intelligence professionals from Nazi Germany, who were guilty of warcrimes, which the US routinely pardoned or was not able to prosecute.

Such as?

[Wanderer]

It's not like von Braun pioneered slave labour - he was the technical head of a project, neither it's overall administrative head (Dornberger then Kammler, who suggested slave labour and built the facilities) nor some sort of pioneer in the field of slave-labour. Yes, he looked the other way but then he was hardly alone in moral cowardice. Given that Himmler was going to bump him off and he was only saved by the intervention of Speer, it can hardly be said that he was best friends with the regime.

Even if we except that as true, this excuses him how?

I really like an answer.

It certainly doesn't excuse him of moral cowardice, but if you want him to hang for that there's a few million others Germans who would need to join him. Your OP acted like the guy was the mastermind when in reality he was a cog in a much larger machine. He didn't suggest slave labor and he didn't seem to have much of a choice in its implementation. He could have protested it...and what? One man's effort against the monstrous nature of the Third Reich would do bugger all.

So your whole argument is if he had protested he would have been killed? In which case so what? He had a moral obligation to say no and did not. He aided in the crimes against the workers and order some of them to be executed. After the war instead of admitting responsibility, he hid from it and denied who ever saw bodies or his workers being killed when numerous witnesses put him at the scene.

[thejester]

So your whole argument is if he had protested he would have been killed? In which case so what? He had a moral obligation to say no and did not.

No, it's not my whole argument. My whole argument is that he was not responsible for the use of slave labour in V2 construction and could do nothing to influence its use.

He aided in the crimes against the workers and order some of them to be executed.

Evidence? While there's mountains of testimonies that von Braun clearly witnessed the suffering in the factories but did nothing about it, that is a far cry from either directly aiding in crimes against them or ordering them to be executed.

After the war instead of admitting responsibility, he hid from it and denied who ever saw bodies or his workers being killed when numerous witnesses put him at the scene.

Admitting responsibility to what? Use of slave labour? Not his decision. Again...he's a moral coward, stack him with the millions of other moral cowards present in Nazi Germany. There remains a huge difference between that, though, and what you are accusing him of - actively aiding and abetting the killing of thousands of people.

[K. A. Pital]

Braun was a pissy little technocrat who didn't even conceive the idea or implement it, merely choosing to turn a blind eye.

As I said, most SS men, SD men and the such did not "conceive" the idea. They were mere executioners, and Braun was one of such executioners.

The difference surely being that a man who works in a KZ has got there through a process.

Indeed. He may be an intelligence officer, or a scientist - for example, chemistry or medicine - or an industrialist who uses slave labour. All of those people are not "conceiving" the idea, they are merely executors.

Such as?

Kurt Blome. Experiment on humans, Sarin prisoners, get boons from the US, and ultimately meet demise in France, which it seems wasn't so keen on just letting monsters like him walking around, much less actively employing him.

Klaus Barbie. I think everyone knows his "accomplishments". Again, the US took the guy for intelligence. The French had to do justice again.

Hubertus Strughold. Dachau murderer, human experiments. US space program participant, space medicine sector.

The Gehlen Organization employment for the CIA, including Gehlen and Brunner themselves.

[Wanderer]

No, it's not my whole argument. My whole argument is that he was not responsible for the use of slave labour in V2 construction and could do nothing to influence its use.

He could have refused to participate in it, instead he embraced it. Thus he shares responsibility for the use of slave labor and the subsequent deaths.

Evidence? While there's mountains of testimonies that von Braun clearly witnessed the suffering in the factories but did nothing about it, that is a far cry from either directly aiding in crimes against them or ordering them to be executed.

I sourced this above

Many of the survivors of Dora - Mittlebrau remember such days as when Von Braun noticed damage to the guidance system of a number of rockets. He immediately ordered twelve workers to be hanged as a warning to others.

What more do you want signed orders that Von Braun most likely burnt, signed depositions from survivors?

Admitting responsibility to what? Use of slave labour? Not his decision. Again...he's a moral coward, stack him with the millions of other moral cowards present in Nazi Germany. There remains a huge difference between that, though, and what you are accusing him of - actively aiding and abetting the killing of thousands of people.

It does not fucking matter if it was his decision or not. He went with it and participated in the suffering of the slave labor.