StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Posted: **2008-06-06 02:02am**

In honor of the comencement of Operation Overlord. By the time I will have posted this, Landing operations will have already commenced in Normandy 64 years ago. Airborne troops began landing around midnight.

Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote:SUPREME HEADQUARTERS —ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force!
You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you. In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms on other Fronts, you will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, the elimination of Nazi tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world.
Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle-hardened. He will fight savagely.
But this is the year 1944! Much has happened since the Nazi triumphs of 1940-41. The United Nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeats, in open battle, man-to-man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground. Our Home Fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war, and placed at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men. The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to Victory!
I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full Victory!
Good Luck! And let us all beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking.
-DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER

To all those who fought and died on both sides of the conflict, let's remember this day.

Posted: **2008-06-06 03:44am**

I would gladly raise a glass to American, British and other Allied troops, but certainly not to the Nazis in Normandy.

Posted: **2008-06-06 04:14am**

An excellent operation ; The amount of logistical and planning skill involved was truly staggering.

And storming those beaches took guts.

Posted: **2008-06-06 08:26am**

Stas Bush wrote:I would gladly raise a glass to American, British and other Allied troops, but certainly not to the Nazis in Normandy.

Not all the troops serving on the Normandy Beaches for Hitler were German. Ost Battalions were constructed from POWs, including Russians, Pols, and in one special case, four Koreans had been captured and forced to fight by various at least three times over the corse of the war before finding themselves in Normandy. Most sources quote a figure of one in six German riflemen in France being Foreign nationals. Perhaps some of them were traitors to their own nations, but most of the Ost soldiers on D-day surrendered their trenches as soon as they possibly could.

And while I cannot admire the Germans for their ideology, I can admit that there were some of them who were capable and professional soldiers on that day, and they deserve to be acknowledged for that.

Posted: **2008-06-06 10:53am**

I would like to point out the textbook example of an assault on a fixed position that occured that morning; I refer of course to the Brecourt Manor Assault. The mixed paratrooper unit led by Richard Winters disabled a battery of 88mm guns in the face of a a 5:1 troop disadvantage, and the action opened up a beachhead at Utah to allow armour to get inland.

I would like to hear any other stories of the small pieces of hell that transpired on that day of days.

Posted: **2008-06-06 01:03pm**

Vehrec wrote:And while I cannot admire the Germans for their ideology, I can admit that there were some of them who were capable and professional soldiers on that day, and they deserve to be acknowledged for that.

I agree with Grazhdanin Stas here and strongly disagree with you. The Heer in World War Two fought on behalf of a foul and evil regime and enthusiastically took part in the worst atrocities committed by that regime. They deserve to be remembered (not acknowledged) for that and for that alone. Just remember, a Russian soldier stood a better chance of survival as a front-line infantrymen than he did as a German PoW.

Your comment "To all those who fought and died on both sides of the conflict" is a sad attempt at moral equivalence and a scurrilous insult to all the allied soldiers who gave their lives so the foulness of the Nazi state could be removed. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Posted: **2008-06-06 01:04pm**

Yeah don't forget the 4 koreans!

Posted: **2008-06-06 02:03pm**

Dare I hope the names of the Korean soldiers are written on some Korean D-day memorial?

Posted: **2008-06-06 02:25pm**

tim31 wrote:I would like to point out the textbook example of an assault on a fixed position that occured that morning; I refer of course to the Brecourt Manor Assault. The mixed paratrooper unit led by Richard Winters disabled a battery of 88mm guns in the face of a a 5:1 troop disadvantage, and the action opened up a beachhead at Utah to allow armour to get inland.

I would like to hear any other stories of the small pieces of hell that transpired on that day of days.

The British Gliderborne troops were detailed to attack a gun battery overlooking the beaches, they were detailed just to do that. Unfortunately when they were assembling for the assault, there were only 66 men of what was supposed to be 300, with no mortars or machine guns. The Colonel in charge however didn't let this be a hinderance to them, and proceeed to lead an assault on a fortifed position and managed to beat them, with some very bad casualties only to find out that the guns had been removed days before.

Posted: **2008-06-06 02:39pm**

Another D-day bit:

At the outbreak of the Second World War, Doohan, aged 19, joined the Royal Canadian Artillery, and was eventually commissioned as a lieutenant in the 13th Field Regiment, part of the divisional artillery of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division. Doohan went to the United Kingdom in 1940 for what became years of training.

His first combat assignment was the invasion of Normandy at Juno Beach on D-Day. Shooting two snipers along the way, Doohan led his unit to higher ground through a field of anti-tank mines and took defensive positions for the night. Crossing between command posts at 11:30 that night, Doohan took six rounds from a Bren gun fired by a nervous sentry: four in his leg, one in the chest, and one through his right middle finger. The bullet to his chest was halted by the silver cigarette case he carried, and his wounded right middle finger was amputated, which he would conceal during his career as an actor.

Scotty was one tough SOB.

Posted: **2008-06-06 04:30pm**

I have never understood why some people seek to romanticize the Nazi soldiers. Does one's fighting ability really merit respect regardless of what he fought for?

I would rather shake the hand of an incompetent Allied veteran from D-Day than a highly skilled Nazi veteran of the same event.

Posted: **2008-06-06 06:45pm**

If I just look at that first picture posted the hair in the back of my neck wants to stand up. It takes some guts to just jump into the water and get onto that beach, storm up the hills and take those bunkers. I take my hat off to these guys, to whom I owe a debt I'll never be able to repay.

Prosit.

Posted: **2008-06-06 09:24pm**

Vehrec wrote:Ost Battalions were constructed from POWs

So you are saying the Nazis deserve credit for forcing captured POWs to fight for them by using traitors and collaborators, torture and coercion?

Good call.

Besides, what difference does it make, if a German or some other Axis satellite fights on the German side? Aren't they all repugnant?

It is really strange when you lump up the Allied heroes of a massive landing operation together with the people who machine-gunned them to preserve the Reich's dominion over Europe.

Posted: **2008-06-06 10:20pm**

In the early morning hours of D-Day thousands of Allied paratroopers were dropped haphazardly all throughout the hedgerows. Instead of panicking or just sitting down and waiting for daylight, most of them banded together with whoever they could find and attacked the nearest Nazi emplacement. Nobody would have faulted them for just sitting tight and waiting for the cavalry, but they didn't give up. They ended up being incredibly beneficial to the overall operation, and with fewer casualties than predicted, IIRC.

That's the definition of character right there. Hats off to the soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the AEF.

That's all from memory, I hope it's right. Either way, those guys still earned my respect.

Posted: **2008-06-06 11:47pm**

I believe the ANZAC ode of remembrance is also appropriate here.

Lest we forget.

Posted: **2008-06-07 12:24am**

Stas Bush wrote:
Vehrec wrote:Ost Battalions were constructed from POWs
So you are saying the Nazis deserve credit for forcing captured POWs to fight for them by using traitors and collaborators, torture and coercion? Good call.

Jesus Christ, he clearly is saying that not everyone on the German side was a Nazi.

Posted: **2008-06-07 01:31am**

thejester wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
Vehrec wrote:Ost Battalions were constructed from POWs
So you are saying the Nazis deserve credit for forcing captured POWs to fight for them by using traitors and collaborators, torture and coercion? Good call.
Jesus Christ, he clearly is saying that not everyone on the German side was a Nazi.

More accurately, he's looking for an excuse to justify his asinine belief that we must "respect those who fought on both sides".

Posted: **2008-06-07 01:34am**

Stas Bush wrote:It is really strange when you lump up the Allied heroes of a massive landing operation together with the people who machine-gunned them to preserve the Reich's dominion over Europe.

That reminds me, if I recall correctly the record for most people killed by an individual in a single battle is held by a German machinegunner who was manning a nest in one of the beaches. Must have been like being in a shooting gallery, except for the part where the targets shot back.

Posted: **2008-06-07 03:10am**

Right, the old "Not every German soldier was a Nazi!" defence.

So what? I can understand that defence when applied to people conscripted and sent out to fight on the Eastern Front, with scary tales of how Russians treated captured Germans and all ; But surrendering in Normandy was easy.

Just because you are a conscript does not absolve you of moral responsibility for your actions, and it certainly doesn't give you moral equivalence with the guy who is fighting your occupying force. I may pity the German conscripts, but I certainly don't respect them. Especially if you remember that many of thoose poor, poor conscripts probably voted for Hitler in the first place.

Posted: **2008-06-07 12:10pm**

thejester wrote: Jesus Christ, he clearly is saying that not everyone on the German side was a Nazi.

That's simply not relevent. The fact was that the Heer was deeply implicated in war crimes and atrocities and that it was, both on an organizational and an individual level an enthusiastic participant. In 1941, German officers had to remind their troops that they were not to volunteer to assist in the massacre of Russian PoWs and civilians becaus ethe number doing so was affectingf ront-line strength. A little later there was an order passed down instructing troops not to use columns of Russian PoWs for target practice because of the amount of ammunition that was being used.

Not everybody on the German side may have been Nazis but they behaved like Nazis. Just how many cases are there or Heer units attacking Einsatzkommandos in an attempt to stop them massacring Jews?

'More accurately, he's looking for an excuse to justify his asinine belief that we must "respect those who fought on both sides".

Exactly. It's like asking us to respect a serial killer because he showed such skill is carving up his victims.

Posted: **2008-06-07 04:53pm**

Two more stories from the day of days. Quoted are their MOH citations.

1st Lt. Jimmie Monteith

For conspicious gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty on 6 June 1944, near Colleville-sur-Mer, France. 1st Lt. Monteith landed with the initial assault waves on the coast of France under heavy enemy fire. Without regard to his own personal safety he continually moved up and down the beach reorganizing men for further assault. He then led the assault over a narrow protective ledge and across the flat, exposed terrain to the comparative safety of a cliff. Retracing his steps across the field to the beach, he moved over to where 2 tanks were buttoned up and blind under violent enemy artillery and machinegun fire. Completely exposed to the intense fire, 1st Lt. Monteith led the tanks on foot through a minefield and into firing positions. Under his direction several enemy positions were destroyed. He then rejoined his company and under his leadership his men captured an advantageous position on the hill. Supervising the defense of his newly won position against repeated vicious counterattacks, he continued to ignore his own personal safety, repeatedly crossing the 200 or 300 yards of open terrain under heavy fire to strengthen links in his defensive chain. When the enemy succeeded in completely surrounding 1st Lt. Monteith and his unit and while leading the fight out of the situation, 1st Lt. Monteith was killed by enemy fire. The courage, gallantry, and intrepid leadership displayed by 1st Lt. Monteith is worthy of emulation.

Pvt. Carlton Barrett

For gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty on 6 June 1944, in the vicinity of St. Laurent-sur-Mer, France. On the morning of D-day Pvt. Barrett, landing in the face of extremely heavy enemy fire, was forced to wade ashore through neck-deep water. Disregarding the personal danger, he returned to the surf again and again to assist his floundering comrades and save them from drowning. Refusing to remain pinned down by the intense barrage of small-arms and mortar fire poured at the landing points, Pvt. Barrett, working with fierce determination, saved many lives by carrying casualties to an evacuation boat Iying offshore. In addition to his assigned mission as guide, he carried dispatches the length of the fire-swept beach; he assisted the wounded; he calmed the shocked; he arose as a leader in the stress of the occasion. His coolness and his dauntless daring courage while constantly risking his life during a period of many hours had an inestimable effect on his comrades and is in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army.

In both cases, these soldiers landed under heavy fire, and continued to expose themselves to it.

Posted: **2008-06-07 06:16pm**

Pritzker Military Library interviews Walter Ehlers a MoH recipient for actions on and after D-Day.

On the topic of "the German's are all evil", there's a section in there (I'm sure it's in that interview) where he talks about meeting years afterward one of the German's who was manning a machine gun in one of the bunkers during the landings. Apparently he was crying the whole time through the attack because of just how "easy" it was and how terrible it was for him to be killing so many people in such a way.

Posted: **2008-06-07 07:00pm**

Stuart wrote: That's simply not relevent.

It was a direct reply to Stas' unintentional strawman, not a commentary on Vehrec's belief.

Posted: **2008-06-08 09:54am**

weemadando wrote:On the topic of "the German's are all evil", there's a section in there (I'm sure it's in that interview) where he talks about meeting years afterward one of the German's who was manning a machine gun in one of the bunkers during the landings. Apparently he was crying the whole time through the attack because of just how "easy" it was and how terrible it was for him to be killing so many people in such a way.

And there were Confederate soldiers who wept at incidents of Union bravery they witnessed during the American Civil War. Doesn't change the fact that they were fighting for slavery and they knew it. The fact that he (claimed he) wept at the dishonour of killing soldiers in such a dishonourable way doesn't mean he felt any guilt about being part of such an evil regime.

Posted: **2008-06-09 10:54pm**

To elaborate: My position of respect for soldiers on both sides who died is not based on their ideology. I am fully aware of the horrors of the Nazi regime. I am likewise aware that there were many thousands of dead soldiers on both sides. It is for these dead that I express my feelings. Certainly a German soldier might have been supporting a foul repugnant regime and it would have been necessary and even right to kill him. This does not mean that we should ignore the fact that so many lives were cut short. To ignore the fact that there were doubtless many intelligent young men who might have gone on to great things but never survived to make it off those beaches or out of those bunkers would be foolish.

If anything, I am sadder for the Germans, because in the end their cause was worth nothing at all and they died for nothing. I can at least say that the American, Canadian, and British troops that day were men who can even today be remembered with pride rather than pitied as their German foes must be. I remember them, not because they were in the right, but because they were in the wrong.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

June 6th 1944-D-Day

June 6th 1944-D-Day