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Firstly: if this is the wrong forum, sorry. I figured it was either this or N&P.

Anyway, I recently watched Michael Moore's Sicko, and I noticed the assumption that Soviet healthcare was bottom of the rung. So, my question toward those who lived in the USSR or in in the Warsaw Pact nations is this: what was Communist healthcare like from a personal perspective?

"In west, you get disease. In Soviet Union, disease gets you!"

Sorry, that just slipped out.

So, my question toward those who lived in the USSR or in in the Warsaw Pact nations is this: what was Communist healthcare like from a personal perspective?

Since we generally have the same healthcare system, only seriously beaten, I'd just say it's okay. This universal healthcare system was good enough to make the Soviet life expectancy rival the US one in the 1960s, despite the US starting with a huge lead in the early 1900s. Later the expectancy was slipping down, but it was more due to the rise of alcoholism than the healthcare system.

Personally it's fine. You are not charged with face-costs for mundane surgery, roentgen scans and various chemical tests. Getting a mundane visit to a doctor can be a pain in the ass, but serious sicknesses are treated on a priority basis (claiming to have one, even without a passport, would land you straight in the "incoming ward" of a hospital in the USSR. A bit more complicated now, with the universal medical insurance formalized in papers, but still works pretty much the same even without insurance).

I find the Soviet/post-Soviet healthcare system adequate and far superior to the US which I also witnessed. Probably this is because I don't have money to afford the paid care, though so I could be biased.

Are alcoholism-treatment programs keeping pace with the rate of alcoholism in the Russian population?

Actually, I should first ask, does the public-health-care system include alcohol (and drug-dependency) programs? I assume it would, but...

Are alcoholism-treatment programs keeping pace with the rate of alcoholism in the Russian population?

Sadly, no.

I should first ask, does the public-health-care system include alcohol (and drug-dependency) programs?

Yes, of course.

Akhlut wrote:Firstly: if this is the wrong forum, sorry. I figured it was either this or N&P.

Anyway, I recently watched Michael Moore's Sicko, and I noticed the assumption that Soviet healthcare was bottom of the rung. So, my question toward those who lived in the USSR or in in the Warsaw Pact nations is this: what was Communist healthcare like from a personal perspective?

It wasn't as technologically advanced, but that's to be expected - the US never suffered a massive war which devastated its territorry. From my perspective, it seems adequate - basic treatment is free, but you need to be patient. The lines have been getting longer lately, of course, but if you're in a life-threatening situation, you will get anything you need quickly and free of charge.

My grandmother had a heart attack recently ; She had a complicated heart surgery op done almost immediately, and stayed in the hospital for almost three weeks. From I was told, in America, my family could've been completely ruined by such surgery and hospital stay, unless they had awesome health insurance.

Overall, I have no idea where Moore got the idea that Soviet health care was somehow bad. It was mired by some typically Soviet flavors (like Party bureaucracy), but nothing horrible.

I thought Moore's "Sicko" said that Cuba's healthcare system is good, and that is a system which is unsurprisingly built along Soviet universal care guideline and methods (more doctors and clinics, more access to elementary care free of charge). So I wonder where does this idea come from anyway.

PeZook wrote:Overall, I have no idea where Moore got the idea that Soviet health care was somehow bad. It was mired by some typically Soviet flavors (like Party bureaucracy), but nothing horrible.

Moore himself didn't say anything about the Soviet Union (except maybe sarcastically), however, a few of the people he interviewed (namely a US expat in the UK) mentioned socialized healthcare, and made tangential comments about their views on Soviet healthcare ("I thought socialized healthcare would be bottom of the rung, terrible healthcare, like what they get in the USSR").

Akhlut wrote: Moore himself didn't say anything about the Soviet Union (except maybe sarcastically), however, a few of the people he interviewed (namely a US expat in the UK) mentioned socialized healthcare, and made tangential comments about their views on Soviet healthcare ("I thought socialized healthcare would be bottom of the rung, terrible healthcare, like what they get in the USSR").

Ah, so it's not Moore who was the ignoramus

This is probably the result of fifty years of Cold War propaganda, though. America had everything the bestest, and of course its vile, baby-eating enemies of Freedom (TM) would have shitty everything.

Best thing is, I'm probably alive thanks to this bottom-rung terrible health care, which has managed to cure me out of childhood hepatitis. It also killed tubernaculosis (i probably messed up the spelling...) in Poland, it become an arcanely rare disease after literally centuries of rampaging through the country unchecked.

Some things people say about it are true, though. There are long lines, medicine was difficult to get during the last days of the PRL, plenty of doctors were incompetent hacks (effects of Party bureaucracy...), there was plenty of corruption and black-market dealings. Still, it certainly wasn't "terrible" by any definition of the word.

PeZook wrote:Ah, so it's not Moore who was the ignoramus

This is probably the result of fifty years of Cold War propaganda, though. America had everything the bestest, and of course its vile, baby-eating enemies of Freedom (TM) would have shitty everything.

There was lots of propaganda around going around the world, spread by the West no less, about the big bad Communists, even in my own country.

I don't think anyone in Europe want to admit that their socialist health system was near identical to the Soviet health system. "Socialist" was probably a substitute for "Communism".

I don't think anyone in Europe want to admit that their socialist health system was near identical to the Soviet health system. "Socialist" was probably a substitute for "Communism".

I find it terribly ironic that the same people that decry communism and socialism use the same political tactics and ideas in my country.

When you were asked for a small fee to see the doctor? Blasphemy! An attack on the People! Clearly the acts of a greedy and corrupt system led by emotionless people!

Nevermind that we are still struggling with mayor financial problems and that the fee was compensated for, plus not asked for emergencies or children (I think).

Privatization? Another act of the greedy government! What is the world going to? Will they sell our schools next? What will the National Gambling Association do under private money (note, these don't oversee gambling, but MAKE some, like lotteries)?

Zixinus wrote:

I don't think anyone in Europe want to admit that their socialist health system was near identical to the Soviet health system. "Socialist" was probably a substitute for "Communism".

I find it terribly ironic that the same people that decry communism and socialism use the same political tactics and ideas in my country.

When you were asked for a small fee to see the doctor? Blasphemy! An attack on the People! Clearly the acts of a greedy and corrupt system led by emotionless people!

Nevermind that we are still struggling with mayor financial problems and that the fee was compensated for, plus not asked for emergencies or children (I think).

Privatization? Another act of the greedy government! What is the world going to? Will they sell our schools next? What will the National Gambling Association do under private money (note, these don't oversee gambling, but MAKE some, like lotteries)?

These people are "anti-capitalist pigs"?

So, what about poorly trained staff at Soviet hospitals, a very high infant mortality rate (even in the western republics) and a glaring lack of medical equipment. Oh, and the life expectancy rate was lower in the Soviet Union compared with the United States (and other Western countries). The life expectancy at birth peaked in 1971 (at 69.5 years) but quickly declined.

So, what about poorly trained staff at Soviet hospitals, a very high infant mortality rate (even in the western republics) and a glaring lack of medical equipment.

Depends on what you need. The system offered good basic care; this netted huge gains in medical supplies versus most of the world - the Second World nations fell just a little short of the West's life expectancy even though they started with a huge handicap, as I'm sure you know. And "high infant mortality rate"? For a nation plagued by a truly atrocious mortality rate we made huge gains.

US, EU and Japan had a huge advantage already in the early XX century (something that we had not) - an enormous handicap, pretty evident at the graph.

Oh, and the life expectancy rate was lower in the Soviet Union compared with the United States (and other Western countries).

Hardly half-lower (as it used to be in the early XX century). Once again, we made enormous gains compared to what we were. The US and Europe had a huge handicap. Doesn't look too bad overall:

The life expectancy at birth peaked in 1971 (at 69.5 years) but quickly declined.

If you look at the graph, not only will you notice that 1970s were not the only peak, but also discern an underlying cause.

LE, males blue, females grey. It "quickly declined" only in the 1990s. And the problem was not in the lack of medical care - declining life expectancy of males as you see here on the graph was the onset, and the problem was: alcoholization. Females suffered no such fate.

The state tried to face this problem with the alcohol ban, which yielded a temporary success in raising the expectancy for males and reversing some alco-trends, but the downfall of the USSR put an end to that.

Interesting... Thank you for the feedback, Stas! (And I only have access to Soviet demographical data up to the mid-1980's).

Goddamn. That brainbug about Russians and their vodka turns out to be actually true, in the worst possible way. Mang.

That brainbug about Russians and their vodka turns out to be actually true, in the worst possible way.

Hard liquors are the bane of Russia. No amount of good medicine can help you if you are an alcoholic who actively refuses treatment (and there's many such people around).