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I have seen red cliff recently, and they depict a formation called the eight trigram formation.

Does this formation exist?

http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baguakh5.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bagua2aa3.jpg


Anyway, does anyone else have an idea on the military formation in throughout the different dynasty and eras?



Chinese history seems to be lacking in the tactical aspect of wars and battles in history.

The eight trigram is an old Chinese symbol, Taoist I think, but what I’m seeing here doesn’t quite completely look like it, and its sure not a rational tactical formation for anything. It’s pretty clearly just meant to look fancy and replicate the symbol. I have no idea if Chinese forces would have ever formed such a thing, perhaps they would have done it to show off the supposed skill and discipline of an army when some Emperor drops by for a visit and can view it off a hillside or something, but overall it really could not have any value in combat.

The Han Chinese did have a defensive formation (against chariots and horse archers) by which a unit would form a circle with the commander in the center, but it consisted of a single line several ranks deep, rather then illogical spreading men out into many lines with only a single rank, which would be easily breached. They also used more conventional squares, but like all ancient armies troops would primarily be deployed in some kind of rectangular line facing the enemy, with a varying degree of dispersion between men.

The tactic was bascially a human maze in the film, luring the enemy to charge the gap, and constantly shift the formation until the enemy is trapped.

^That really wouldn't work in real life. From the look of it, you have got several squares arrayed in a circle around another circle. Furthermore, while you are shifting the formation around him, you are basically opening up yourself to attack, and this would only work if the enemy was outnumbered. Yet, if the enemy is outnumbered, why bother with something like this?

First, those squares are really, really, weak. I mean, their lines are what, 3-4 men thick? That is far below any respectable battleline. Also, why is almost noone in the center of the squares? What reason does a square have if it is basically hallow? It is easily shattered. Especially since I do not see any pikes. Furthermore, why a circle? That is only good when you are surrounded. And if you are surrounded and in danger of being overrrun, why form such ridiculous squares?

In short, the formation makes no sense. I suggest you read up on the tercio or the gewalthaufen to know how a square should be constructed.

ray245 wrote:I have seen red cliff recently, and they depict a formation called the eight trigram formation.

Does this formation exist?

Anyway, does anyone else have an idea on the military formation in throughout the different dynasty and eras?

Not too sure about the actual existence of the eight trigram formation, but the goose and swallow formation do actually exist. They're found in Sun Bin Art of War.

Similarly, the eight trigram formation actually does resemble the defensive turtle formation in the manuals and that found in the novel. It just needs to be MUCH more thicker. It could be an attempt to simply rename the signature formation of Zhuge Liang in the novel, especially since it does have 365 arrays with different names for each. Certainly, the formation was meant to have a revolving circle of outer troops meant to trap an enemy charge inside.

Chinese history seems to be lacking in the tactical aspect of wars and battles in history.

Errr....... There is an excellent english book out about the analysis of Chinese military encylopedias....... I can't recall the name right now, but it was a play on the words Art of War.

Similarly, Sun Bin addresses the use of formations and how each formation has its purpose in war. IIRC, the wedge formation is used by cavalry and we see this duplicated by the Wei army here, the swallow is used by troops for fast flanking movements and etc.