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This thread is inspired by Bluewolf's. I decided that as long as we're on that topic, we can show why actually doing your research is mandatory.

1. Fantasy settings typically have magic (or close equvalent) that will let at least some denizens help out with various tasks better than peasants can. Spells can easily be used for say construction, mapping, production of goods and of course security.

The Middle Ages don't even have that luxury. All tasks had to be done with physical labour.

2. Fantasy apparently have much hardier, tougher and prettier citizens than in real life. Really ugly people tend to be rare and almost nobody suffers from famine or disease (except by Act Of Plot).

The Middle Ages was full of ugly, malformed, and disabled (and soon to be dead) people. Unlike Fantasy where even broken bones are trivial (if they even exist) an unchecked lesion can quickly spell doom for all but the luckiest and strongest people.

3. Most crime is swiftly punished in Fantasyland. Bandits rarely cause problems, and if they do, they soon cease to be problems. Thank the plucky band of adventurers that happened to stumble by.

In the Middle Ages, however, you'd be laughed at for even suggesting that the muggers outside village limits should be exterminated by a mob.

4. If the fantasy setting has beings that are considered to be gods, then chances are most of them are going to be benevolent - or at least indifferent to humanity.

But even an apathetic deity is better than an imaginary God who nonetheless causes way more suffering, hatred, injustice, and inequality than even the most diabolical tyrant.

5. Fantasy has mythical creatures; The Middle Ages do not. Whether this is a good thing or not depends on circumtance.

6. If they exist, fantasy clergy tend to actually be worth something, healing any ill up to and including death. Health care, even if the only care worth using was magical, was still incredibly useful and common. (Hell, sometimes you'll get a setting where a good night's rest is all it takes to fix you up right and proper!)

Medival health care is an oxymoron. It's pathetic and primitive.

7. Fantasy settlements are mostly clean. Medival settlements aren't.

8. Fantasy rulers are either good people, or people brought to justice. Medival rulers are neither.

9. Fantasy families only have a few kids per generation and commoners live long lives. In the Middle Ages, those babies lucky enough reach the age of three have a painful short life ahead of them! Whee!

10. Fantasy tends to have modern social attitudes. Women are more likely to be taken seriously as a warrior, for instance, in a fantasy setting as opposed to an accurate medival one. Another example is that unlike the Middle Ages (effective) slavery is considered to be evil.

11. If the fantasy setting is lucky they'll stumble on long forgotten technology - or have it given to them - which can then be used to make their lives even better! But like magic, superior, hidden techonlogy didn't exist in the Middle Ages (or if it did, it would be quickly destroyed or sealed).

12. Fantasy afterlives not only exist, but are likely to be pretty good for the souls involved. Christianity owes much of its success of a promise of a good life after death, by contrast.

In the short time it took me to write this post up, I managed to think of twleve big differences between the fantasy worlds portrayed in movies, books and video games, and the Middle Ages as it really happened. Did I miss anything?

In Fanstasyland, every man and all his sperm have their own horses. Not sure how prevalent horse ownership was in the Middle Ages, although I would hazard a guess that it would be very expensive.

Eulogy wrote: 11. If the fantasy setting is lucky they'll stumble on long forgotten technology - or have it given to them - which can then be used to make their lives even better! But like magic, superior, hidden techonlogy didn't exist in the Middle Ages (or if it did, it would be quickly destroyed or sealed).

Roman technological knowhow in many fields was vastly superior, as was the amount of civilization present in Rome if I may say to myself.

For example, the Aqueduct at Segovia was considered by the inhabitants of the town to not only be inexplicably well constructed but positively divine- a story about devilish origin was quickly supplanted by that of a divine miracle, but regardless the fact that the Romans built an unmortared stone aqueduct was considered so far beyond the mediaeval skill that mythology and legendry developed about it!

Still, not the kind of superdevice that one would figure, but to call the Romans less advanced than the Dark Ages is a terrible slight to the former.

Zablorg wrote:In Fanstasyland, every man and all his sperm have their own horses. Not sure how prevalent horse ownership was in the Middle Ages, although I would hazard a guess that it would be very expensive.

Speaking of:

Fantasyland had no sexual frustration whatsoever. If you got horny, you'd find a similarly randy man/woman/elf/dwarf/etc and get on like wildfire. Birth control would default to active, and VD doesn't exist.

Medieval life went one of two ways. You'd get overworked so hard your sex drive gets shut down nearly completely, or you get raped and catch VD or pregnancy. None of this 'one a day' masturbation common to modern people, either; that would cause undue risk of vengeful neighbors using your habit as a very convenient excuse to get the Church on your ass. The horses probably got fucked nearly as often as they were ridden on. In short, Blue Balls was the perpetual order of the day, then you died tomorrow still a virgin.

In fantasy, the common men at least had a dirk or dagger, sometimes up to even decent military weapons to defend themselves.

In reality, your average peasant could barely afford the tools necessary for their trade, never mind tools for self-defence. If it came to, your typical person had either weak farm tools or mere sticks to defend themselves. Even if they were even allowed to have weapons in the first place, as lords disliked the idea of having their slaves armed even to defend themselves from passing-by bandits.
To get an idea how valued good tools were, a shitty knife was highly valued item, cared for and passed on for generations until it was used to absolute uselessness.

I could name a few more, but I'm in a hurry.

Zablorg wrote:In Fanstasyland, every man and all his sperm have their own horses. Not sure how prevalent horse ownership was in the Middle Ages, although I would hazard a guess that it would be very expensive.

I think it depends very much on the culture. If you're lucky enough to be a Mongol, then you're going to have a horse.

That said, I don't think there's that many horses in your average fantasyland; most Dungeons and Dragons games I've seen have them fairly infrequently.

In Fantasyland, the livestock never die of hard seasons, or disease, thus wiping out your family.

In Fantasyland, beggars are mostly poor folks, down on their luck, who can tell you lots of useful information for a schilling.

In Medieval times, beggars were people who were so fucked up somehow they could not even be useful if hitched to a plow; any know;ledge they might have would be limited to when the tavern throws its nasty scraps out at the end of the day, at which point the beggars will get together ot fight over them like Bumfights gone Wild.

Apparently, in Fantasyland, no one ever needs to dispose of their poop, if they even have to poop at all.

Coyote wrote:Apparently, in Fantasyland, no one ever needs to dispose of their poop, if they even have to poop at all.

Didn't you know? Indoor Sanitation is the gift of Osiris.

In Fantasyland, only Evil Empires draft peasants for their armies. The Good Kingdoms all have all-volunteer professional militaries (and in D&D-esque settings perhaps a democratically-minded National Guard part-time militia equivalent). In addition, Good Kingdoms follow Geneva Convention analogues.

In the real medieval ages, serfs were drafted everywhere on pain of death, lorded over by a small and brutal elite of Knights and men-at-arms, and people had never even heard of "laws of war". A Knight might be ransomed instead of killed, but the average conscript had about the same rights as a Soviet citizen in Nazi hands, as did the average serf when his lord's lands were plundered.

Zixinus wrote:In fantasy, the common men at least had a dirk or dagger, sometimes up to even decent military weapons to defend themselves.

In reality, your average peasant could barely afford the tools necessary for their trade, never mind tools for self-defence. If it came to, your typical person had either weak farm tools or mere sticks to defend themselves. Even if they were even allowed to have weapons in the first place, as lords disliked the idea of having their slaves armed even to defend themselves from passing-by bandits.
To get an idea how valued good tools were, a shitty knife was highly valued item, cared for and passed on for generations until it was used to absolute uselessness.

I could name a few more, but I'm in a hurry.

Every person did have a 'pocket knife' for eating. If they were lucky, they had a spoon as well. The knife might not be the best, but it was big enough to cut off chunks of food and spear whatever little meat might be in the stew, as well as the cut veggies.

A quickie:

in typical fantasyland (with some notable exceptions...), kings and lords are either good-hearted, fair, and stalwarth defenders of the Light, Honor and Goodness, who go to war with indomitable valor, but only when forced to defend their people, or Evil Overlords (tm) with world domination projects, ready to drow the world in blood. No other personalities are allowed.

In historical Middle Age, all the average king or lord (with some notable exceptions...) could think about was how to grab some more land from his neighbor, and how to prevent his neighbors from grabbing some of his land. To pursue these ends, he was ready to do pretty much everything, including but not limited to backstabbing his own father, allying and swearing eternal loyalty with whoever he tought could help him, betraying the same subject two days later in return for some more land, etc...and, of course, 'their people' was usually the very least of their thoughts...

Fantasy Land: Coming up with something new and inventive will get you hailed as a genius and make you lots of money

Real life: New ideas were either seized by local lords to give them an advantage, or were banned by the church as the tool of the devil.

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Fantasy Land; Outsiders are welcomed for there new ideas and trade contacts.

Real life: Outsiders were killed out of fear or enslaved.

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Fantasy Land: Cats can be magical creatures of wonder!

Real life: Cats were seen as messengers of the devil. A mass killing of cats caused an explosion in the rat population, resulting in the Black Plague, which killed half of Europe.

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Fantasy Land: Houses are usually clean, well built, sturdy affairs, capable of keeping you warm and cool and dry as the weather requires

Real life: It was a good day if your house didn't fall on you because a large bird landed on it, or someone sneezed to hard on it.
(Okay, maybe not quite that bad, but you get the idea.)

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Fantasy Land: Knights were noble warriors with a code, that helped those in need, and won the heart of fair maidens everywhere.

Real life: Knights were basically paid mercanaries or cultured thugs. They had fair maidens everywhere, but not by the maidens choice.

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Fantasy Land: Magical creatures abound!

Real life: The dragon you killed last week was probably a sick crocodile. The vampire attacking people is probably someone with serious mental health problems, same with the werewolf. And no, the sounds from the graveyard arn't the dead coming back to life, their the guy you buried yesterday waking up from his coma.

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Fantasy Land; Almost everyone can read and write. Some can speak multiple langauges. Books are avialable for the public, and they even have libraries.

Real life: Like the local authorities wanted you to be able to read. If you can read, you can find out when they are lying to you about what something like a holy book or royal proclamation actually says.

Darth Hoth wrote:In Fantasyland, only Evil Empires draft peasants for their armies. The Good Kingdoms all have all-volunteer professional militaries (and in D&D-esque settings perhaps a democratically-minded National Guard part-time militia equivalent). In addition, Good Kingdoms follow Geneva Convention analogues.

In the real medieval ages, serfs were drafted everywhere on pain of death, lorded over by a small and brutal elite of Knights and men-at-arms, and people had never even heard of "laws of war". A Knight might be ransomed instead of killed, but the average conscript had about the same rights as a Soviet citizen in Nazi hands, as did the average serf when his lord's lands were plundered.

The exception to this was post-black-death. Professional militaries started to come the forefront, because half the peasants were dead the thus became very valuable for food production. It is at this point where for example, the english started getting units of professional longbowmen (as opposed to peasants made to practice with longbows from the age of 7 in addition to their other work)

In Fanstasyland countries can be crossed within the week with well built roads and good weather (until the plot needed the said weather bad).

In medieval times you could not go far from your home unless you were rich. Roads were mud ditches and it took a while even on the best of days to cross country, assumung going into another country was not a violation.

In fantastasyland armies are well commanded with high dicipline thoughout except for the bad guys.

In medieval times training was bare for most, men could flee, charge at the wrong time or not here an order at all.

Eulogy wrote:we can show why actually doing your research is mandatory.

Yes, it would indeed be nice to see where some of the claims in this thread are coming from. Black Death caused by mass exterminations of cats? Rampant banning of new technology by the Church? I hear black powder was invented in this era, as well as mechanical clocks and spectacles. Surely if anything would be seen as the work of the devil and banned, it would be these things.

Then there's the question if most fantasy is even trying to depict a true version of medieval society and not a, you know, fantasy. The middle ages didn't have magic and dragons, you say? Holy shit! Perhaps it would be more constructive to discuss myths started and spread by the national romanticists, who really did think they were somehow representing history accurately (while blatantly making shit up), and whose damage persists to this day, in the form of Vikings with big dumb horned helmets and whatnot.

Solauren wrote:Fantasy Land: Cats can be magical creatures of wonder!

Real life: Cats were seen as messengers of the devil. A mass killing of cats caused an explosion in the rat population, resulting in the Black Plague, which killed half of Europe.

Actually, the cat-killing got underway after the Black Plague started, generally. It was usually done before you blamed the Jews for poisoning the water.


Which leads to another Fantasy/Real Life difference!

Fantasy: Religions that come from the same pantheon or that aren't evil almost never fight or kill each other's adherents.

Real Life: No religions got along, except Islam and Judaism. This lead to bitter and excessively violent warfare wherein people engaged in such atrocities as cannibalism, among other things.

Dooey Jo wrote: Yes, it would indeed be nice to see where some of the claims in this thread are coming from. Black Death caused by mass exterminations of cats?

I find random backlashes against Jewish communities related to accusations of well-poisoning far more telling of the medieval mindset, myself.

The mass extermination of cats is an urban myth, IIRC.

Dooey Jo wrote:Rampant banning of new technology by the Church? I hear black powder was invented in this era, as well as mechanical clocks and spectacles. Surely if anything would be seen as the work of the devil and banned, it would be these things.

Don't forget the windmill, steelmaking, the crossbow and meteorology.

The Church did supress scientific theories that went against established doctrine, but supression of technology per se just didn't happen. It was just that the scientific method simply wasn't there, and medieval scholars lacked a lot of basic stuff like the elemntal table, atomic theory, basic physical equations etc., which means they spent a lot of time arguing about bullshit explanations of phenomena, not based on reality in the slightest.

Dooey Jo wrote:

Eulogy wrote:we can show why actually doing your research is mandatory.

Yes, it would indeed be nice to see where some of the claims in this thread are coming from. Black Death caused by mass exterminations of cats? Rampant banning of new technology by the Church? I hear black powder was invented in this era, as well as mechanical clocks and spectacles. Surely if anything would be seen as the work of the devil and banned, it would be these things.

Then there's the question if most fantasy is even trying to depict a true version of medieval society and not a, you know, fantasy. The middle ages didn't have magic and dragons, you say? Holy shit! Perhaps it would be more constructive to discuss myths started and spread by the national romanticists, who really did think they were somehow representing history accurately (while blatantly making shit up), and whose damage persists to this day, in the form of Vikings with big dumb horned helmets and whatnot.

It's not us you have to convince of this, Dooey. It's those idiots who think that fantasy settings are more or less accurate depictions of real life medival societies (and yes, Hollywood depictions count). It's not our fault if morons can't tell the difference between a story and history, or if they didn't do their homework.

I wrote:This thread is inspired by Bluewolf's.

Every person did have a 'pocket knife' for eating. If they were lucky, they had a spoon as well. The knife might not be the best, but it was big enough to cut off chunks of food and spear whatever little meat might be in the stew, as well as the cut veggies.

My point was that any knife was highly valued, even if it was shitty. Knives were passed on from fathe to son and were often one of the most valuable properties of a peasent.

I wouldn't go as far as "every person" but a sheet of hardish metal was not that expensive really, even to make. Of course, they didn't necesarly make good knives, but usable ones none the less.

Which brings me to another point:

Fantasy land: Every blacksmith could make you decent weapons. This is more of a RPG thing, but it does seem to have melded over to literature a bit as well.

Real World: You had the right to be happy if the rural blacksmith could make a horseshoe properly, nevermind weapons. Plus, blacksmiths were rare and if they made weapons, they did not make them for the avarege peasent's price range. Whether a blacksmith was allowed to make weapons is an entirely different question.

PeZook wrote:The mass extermination of cats is an urban myth, IIRC.

I think it depended on where you were at. I think it may have been more prevalent in the cities. But, a lot of things besides cats were killed, like dogs and rats, which meant the fleas carrying the plague had little else to live on but humans.

Another problem was the groups of flagellants going from town to town whipping themselves in order to show contrition for sins in the hopes that it would make God stop his plague from killing more people. Unfortunately, these guys were somehow even less hygenic than your average peasant, and so carried infected fleas from village to village. <- Another thing left out of fantasy. I've never heard of religious fanatics in fantasy fiction whipping themselves so brutally with scourges that it takes multiple tries to pull out the scourge.

Also:

I hear black powder was invented in this era, as well as mechanical clocks and spectacles.

I would like a historian backing me up on this, but in a way, the Church's zeal for its greed and power led to its eventual downfall: crossbows were called the tools of the devil for a long time as it would have radically changed the face of warfare. But came the Crusades, the crossbow suddenly became a godsend.

The same was true with gunpowder: when the Mongols came, they gave a hard and harsh lesson about keeping up. So they took gunpowder from them, while some historians made up or believed a story about some random European dude suddenly developing gunpowder out of the blue and pretending that they didn't in fact took in some Mongol hostigates, equipment and made them tell the secrets of gunpowder.

The Mongols genuinely represented a treat that Christians at the time could easily think of as the world ending or the army of the devil. In such circumstence, you will be willing to let go of a princible or two in order to get a powerful, new weapon in a hurt Europe.

I don't know about spectacles, but mechenical clocks were a necessity on ships for navigation. When the colonization era came, the Church was unwilling to potentially sabotage its new-found source of wealth.

This again leads to another myth:

In fantasy, religious people and religions as a whole rarely bothered themselves with material gain.

In reality, the Church and pretty much any religion was very much aware and cared very much about its financial status.

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:None of this 'one a day' masturbation common to modern people, either; that would cause undue risk of vengeful neighbors using your habit as a very convenient excuse to get the Church on your ass. The horses probably got fucked nearly as often as they were ridden on. In short, Blue Balls was the perpetual order of the day, then you died tomorrow still a virgin.

Couldn't you just fuck the mattress (err, blanket over your floor)? Plus I think most people got married at a fairly young age back then, that probably helped. You're right about how fantasy does seem to downplay the fact that anybody "fooling around" in a pre-modern setting should be very worried about getting pregnant.

One thing I notice: fantasy, especially fantasy bad guys, often have quite large armies. Very rarely is much attention seemingly paid to what a bloody nightmare it was to keep huge numbers of men and draft animals alive and on the march in an age before canned food and sanitation. The difficulty of keeping draft animals like horses fed seems to be particularly overlooked.

Junghalli wrote: You're right about how fantasy does seem to downplay the fact that anybody "fooling around" in a pre-modern setting should be very worried about getting pregnant.

That's why the gods gave us the powers of anal sex, oral sex, and mutual masturbation. Combine that with a monogamous relationship to avoid VD, and you're all set. No contraception necessary.

MRDOD wrote:Roman technological knowhow in many fields was vastly superior, as was the amount of civilization present in Rome if I may say to myself.

For example, the Aqueduct at Segovia was considered by the inhabitants of the town to not only be inexplicably well constructed but positively divine- a story about devilish origin was quickly supplanted by that of a divine miracle, but regardless the fact that the Romans built an unmortared stone aqueduct was considered so far beyond the mediaeval skill that mythology and legendry developed about it!

Do note that the Medieval period is rather long. At the very beginning of it, sure the Romans were way more advanced, but as you move further along it the Europeans catch-back up. Also, what the peasants think about something is not necessarily an indicator of what the educated people think. For example it's a common myth that Medieval Europeans believed the Earth was flat, that was only true of the masses, the elite not only knew the Earth is round, they also knew how big around.

Zixinus wrote:I would like a historian backing me up on this, but in a way, the Church's zeal for its greed and power led to its eventual downfall: crossbows were called the tools of the devil for a long time as it would have radically changed the face of warfare. But came the Crusades, the crossbow suddenly became a godsend.

The the reason crossbows were opposed was because the Kings who didn't have access to them had more pull with the Church than the Kings who did. Also, a crossbow meant any random peasant was a credible threat to even the most skilled and well armoured nobleman, and this was "unfair". The smart nobles just learned to let their own crossbowmen deal with the enemy's.

Yes, it would indeed be nice to see where some of the claims in this thread are coming from.

Monty Python, methinks. No pregnancies if it weren't for rape? People routinely getting killed for masturbating? Houses falling over when you looked at them funny?