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Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-27 09:14am
by Kitsune
I am curious if the German People were actually duped by the operation or if most knew that it was all a sham?
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-27 08:43pm
by MarshalFoch
There were many incidents along the Polish-German frontier in late September, Gleiwitz was just the most well-known. Since I don't believe the Allies gave much thought to Gleiwitz until Naujocks defected I don't think the Germans gave a scrutinizing look at it at all. The one German I have ever talked to who lived through the war said his parents always believed the Polish nationalist government was using the West's blank check to keep the Polish Corridor by provoking Germany.
I did find
this interesting article. Not sure if I completely agree but I don't know what other evidence is used to assert the accepted version of the Gleiwitz attack. If I recall correctly fall Weiss had already commenced mere hours after Gleiwitz which I think tends to add weight to Naujocks account.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-27 09:37pm
by Kitsune
I decided to just take a look at the rest of his website before deciding what value. Before then, I asked myself what the odd are that he is an anti-Semite and would have on his website something about the holocaust not happening. I gave it ten to one.....And I was right.
This is one of the quotes on his website
The Holocaust may be the biggest single tool that the Jews have used to rob, roust and ruin the gentiles, but it is also the biggest single weapon that gentiles have to use against the Jews. What I mean is that the Holocaust is a provable lie, and the more that people become educated about this fact, the deeper it will dig the Jewish grave. The Jews will try to survive it, but they simply cannot. I say this not merely because it is such a powerful weapon, but also -- and especially -- because it cuts to the heart of what the Jews think of themselves. It absolutely kills the notion that they are morally superior, and it kills this notion in the very place where it does the most harm, namely, in the Jewish soul. Oscar Wilde said that each one kills the thing he loves, and we see that Jews are killing the thing they love most -- themselves. More power to them! --JBR Yant, Mortal Words v 12
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-27 11:07pm
by MarshalFoch
Kitsune wrote:I decided to just take a look at the rest of his website before deciding what value. Before then, I asked myself what the odd are that he is an anti-Semite and would have on his website something about the holocaust not happening. I gave it ten to one.....And I was right.
This is one of the quotes on his website
The Holocaust may be the biggest single tool that the Jews have used to rob, roust and ruin the gentiles, but it is also the biggest single weapon that gentiles have to use against the Jews. What I mean is that the Holocaust is a provable lie, and the more that people become educated about this fact, the deeper it will dig the Jewish grave. The Jews will try to survive it, but they simply cannot. I say this not merely because it is such a powerful weapon, but also -- and especially -- because it cuts to the heart of what the Jews think of themselves. It absolutely kills the notion that they are morally superior, and it kills this notion in the very place where it does the most harm, namely, in the Jewish soul. Oscar Wilde said that each one kills the thing he loves, and we see that Jews are killing the thing they love most -- themselves. More power to them! --JBR Yant, Mortal Words v 12
I didn't read the rest of his site other than that article because it was a white supremacist site as far as I could tell. The article is taken from a google search, and I couldn't find much info on the author of the article, Joaquin Bochaca. The article does not attempt to tackle the other false flag attacks or explain why the invasion of Poland commenced before Gleiwitz was made known and only hours after it happened. I did take it with a grain of salt since I had never heard of his revisionist book, nor of the author himself. I just found the points he raised interesting, but I am not familiar with all the evidence of Gleiwitz so don't take it to mean I am promoting this version.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-27 11:48pm
by Kitsune
I would not just call him a "White Supremacist" but a "Neo-Nazi" himself.
Neo-Nazis are utterly incapable of dealing with anything to do with Germany and the Third Reich factually. I have had some dealings with them in the past in debates.
Basically everything the Nazis did is golden in their eyes.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-28 09:17pm
by K. A. Pital
"Revisionist history". When you read that, be sure to know it's a huge stinking pile of Nazi-loving drivel. It's the codeword for "Holocaust denial" - the name that racist Holocaust deniers like Irving, etc. like to call themselves.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-28 10:57pm
by Kitsune
I have learned quite clearly that while in some cases alternate points of view are valid, in other cases they simply are not.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2008-12-29 07:39pm
by Thanas
Kitsune wrote:I am curious if the German People were actually duped by the operation or if most knew that it was all a sham?
No studies exist AFAIK.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2009-01-02 04:44am
by Glocksman
Stas Bush wrote:"Revisionist history". When you read that, be sure to know it's a huge stinking pile of Nazi-loving drivel. It's the codeword for "Holocaust denial" - the name that racist Holocaust deniers like Irving, etc. like to call themselves.
Not always.
In the US, there were a lot of 'revisionist' historians in the 1930's who questioned the wisdom and validity of the US involvement in WW1.
The holocaust denier assholes frequently attempt to cloak their activities by invoking Charles Beard and other legitimate 'revisionist' historians as 'proof' that they aren't merely neo-Nazi assholes trying to whitewash Hitler's reputation.
David Irving is interesting though because he at one time was taken seriously among western historians because of his capacity to dig up interesting and obscure tidbits in buried archives.
Too bad that he eventually became a victim of the historian's equivalent of 'Stockholm Syndrome'.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2009-01-02 05:20am
by Thanas
David Irwing got noticed because he actually had the capacity to translate German (including Sütterling) into English. Not because he was such a genius, but because he was the first to actually check the archives, something English historians had somewhat of an aversion to do. In short, he profited from the fact that most German historians at that time were unwilling/unable to write in English, whereas many British historians simply did not have the skillset or the interest to do archival work. It is not like a history degree suddenly makes you able to read archived work - I know people who are unable to only read documents 1940s onwards, but still have a degree in the field. Also, at that time, foreign languages were not that much required by the universities as today in order to study history.
Re: Gleiwitz incident
Posted: 2009-01-05 09:57am
by Darth Hoth
Glocksman wrote:David Irving is interesting though because he at one time was taken seriously among western historians because of his capacity to dig up interesting and obscure tidbits in buried archives.
Too bad that he eventually became a victim of the historian's equivalent of 'Stockholm Syndrome'.
"Eventually"? He was a Hitler fan already in the '70s/80s (inflating the number of victims for Dresden on shaky grounds and being biased, if not outright lying, in his Hitler biography). He just became more extreme as the years passed.
On another note, "revisionism" is not synonymous with Holocaust denial, but Holocaust deniers like to hide behind the label because people tend not to take them seriously once exposed. Therefore, it is acquiring such connotations.