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I have read up on the issue of where did China get its English name. However, from what I have gathered, almost everyone seems to have a different opinion on this issue.

Some documentaries has suggested that the first dynasty, the Qin dynasty was responsible for it. However, it is a leap of faith for me to take their word.

One, Qin and the 'Chi' in the word 'China' has a totally different pronunciation. Second, from what I gather, Europeans never really interact with the Chinese until the Yuan dynasty onwards. And given that most people in those times refer to their nation by the dynasty name as compared to a national name, it seems weird that the average peasant would even refer to their nation as 'Qin' and the europeans would even know that much about China's history.

Also, nationalism in China where people identify themselves as a member of China did not take root until the age of Nationalism in the 19th and 20th century. Other than that, the literal Chinese translation for their nation today is 'Middle Kingdom' as compared to Qin Guo.

Then there is people who suggested that the word 'China' comes from the porcelain bowls and plates. However, I thought that people gave those porcelain those names precisely because of the fact that they are imported from China? Also, people do call vase coming from China Ming Vase as well. So it is a leap of faith for me to believe that as well.

Another suggestion is the Roman name for people who produced silk, the Seres, which evolved over time to Sina, which is similar to 'China' in some ways.

So where did the English name for China comes from anyway?

Even then, why did the Europeans adopted such a name as compared to 'Cathay', Seres or Sina when they are refering to modern day China? When did the Europeans first started to called China, 'China' officially?

It certainly seems to me that there is a rather sizable disagreement among historians in regards to that issue.

ray245 wrote:One, Qin and the 'Chi' in the word 'China' has a totally different pronunciation.

One thing to note is that the same name here is pronounced differently in many languages. In English, the first syllable is pronounced "chai", in German, it's "khee", and in French, it is, I believe, "shee"; all typical with how the language would pronounce the letters. So it's still possible that the name originated with Qin (most likely spelt "Chin" in any pre-Pinyin transliterations) but then changed in each language over time.

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:

ray245 wrote:One, Qin and the 'Chi' in the word 'China' has a totally different pronunciation.

One thing to note is that the same name here is pronounced differently in many languages. In English, the first syllable is pronounced "chai", in German, it's "khee", and in French, it is, I believe, "shee"; all typical with how the language would pronounce the letters. So it's still possible that the name originated with Qin (most likely spelt "Chin" in any pre-Pinyin transliterations) but then changed in each language over time.

The point is, hardly anyone in China would refer to their Country as 'Qin' when contact with Europeans becomes active. Why would the Europeans dig up information regarding the first dynasty, just to create an English name for China?

ray245 wrote:

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:

ray245 wrote:One, Qin and the 'Chi' in the word 'China' has a totally different pronunciation.

One thing to note is that the same name here is pronounced differently in many languages. In English, the first syllable is pronounced "chai", in German, it's "khee", and in French, it is, I believe, "shee"; all typical with how the language would pronounce the letters. So it's still possible that the name originated with Qin (most likely spelt "Chin" in any pre-Pinyin transliterations) but then changed in each language over time.

The point is, hardly anyone in China would refer to their Country as 'Qin' when contact with Europeans becomes active. Why would the Europeans dig up information regarding the first dynasty, just to create an English name for China?

Because the first contact with the Europeans came at the time of Marco Polo, who used the Persian name for it, which happens to be Chin, borrowed from the Sanskrit (this is turned into "Cathay" in translations of his book, for some odd reason, obscuring the connection).

The Chinese, of course, DID refer to their country as Qin when the name entered Sanskrit, it is even mentioned in the Mahabaratas.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

fgalkin wrote: Because the first contact with the Europeans came at the time of Marco Polo, who used the Persian name for it, which happens to be Chin, borrowed from the Sanskrit (this is turned into "Cathay" in translations of his book, for some odd reason, obscuring the connection).

If I remember things correctly, I thought that the Tang Dynasty is pretty well known in the middle eastern region as well, with diplomantic relationship between the Byzantine empire and the Sassanid empire as well? Didn't those people update their names for China at the least?

I mean even the Chinese updated their name for the Roman empire.

fgalkin wrote:The Chinese, of course, DID refer to their country as Qin when the name entered Sanskrit, it is even mentioned in the Mahabaratas.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

However, that did not explain why did the Europeans use the name China as a whole, as compared to Cathay?

ray245 wrote:If I remember things correctly, I thought that the Tang Dynasty is pretty well known in the middle eastern region as well, with diplomantic relationship between the Byzantine empire and the Sassanid empire as well? Didn't those people update their names for China at the least?

Keep in mind that the traders in the Middle East had an interest and motivation in keeping the ultimate source of some of their goods secret and therefore had no reason to give European purchasers the correct name of their sources. Indeed, in much of Europe there were time periods where people knew certain goods came from Venice but had no clue where Venice got them from. Communication was not nearly as open and free as we take for granted.

You might as well ask why English speakers call a certain nation "Germany" and the French call it "Allemagne", neither of which resemble "Deutschland", which is what the inhabitants of that nation call it. Some nation names seem to travel easily and change little, other nation's seemed to have a different name everywhere you go.

By the way - the pottery is called "China" because that's originally where it came from, they didn't call the nation China after the pottery.

Even then, why did the Europeans adopted such a name as compared to 'Cathay', Seres or Sina when they are refering to modern day China? When did the Europeans first started to called China, 'China' officially?

Sino- is an English prefix used to refer to things related to China. For example, "Sino-American relations". A "sinophile" is someone enamored of things Chinese. So the "sina" you refer to did enter into English. (by the way - I'm nominating you as our official sinophile, Ray)

Broomstick wrote:Keep in mind that the traders in the Middle East had an interest and motivation in keeping the ultimate source of some of their goods secret and therefore had no reason to give European purchasers the correct name of their sources. Indeed, in much of Europe there were time periods where people knew certain goods came from Venice but had no clue where Venice got them from. Communication was not nearly as open and free as we take for granted.

You might as well ask why English speakers call a certain nation "Germany" and the French call it "Allemagne", neither of which resemble "Deutschland", which is what the inhabitants of that nation call it. Some nation names seem to travel easily and change little, other nation's seemed to have a different name everywhere you go.

By the way - the pottery is called "China" because that's originally where it came from, they didn't call the nation China after the pottery.

Quite true. Given that the ancient Chinese names for the Romans doesn't even sound like Romans at all. Da Qin is the name used by the Han dynasty for instance.

Broomstick wrote: Sino- is an English prefix used to refer to things related to China. For example, "Sino-American relations". A "sinophile" is someone enamored of things Chinese. So the "sina" you refer to did enter into English. (by the way - I'm nominating you as our official sinophile, Ray)

Well, I am a Chinese, so I see no problem with an interest in Chinese history for one, just like most Europeans and americans being interested in European and Roman history for one. ( Although I do have a huge interest in European history as well. )

I don't know if it is relevant but in the Indian subcontinent languages China is known as Chin and chineese people as Cheena.

It probably helps that Zhōngguó (literally "Middle/central country") is the current Mandarin/Pinyin name for China and has been the name assumed by regions that wanted to be considered the contemporary seat of power in China over the last 1000 years.

Zhōngguó is pronounced roughly Chun-gwah which is phonetically very close to the English "China".

Most names for China, historically and in modern times, derive from either Qin (Qin Shi Huang consolidated most of the Chinese Empire that lasted until 1912), the phoenetically similar Jìn dynasty, or various local versions of "The Place Silk Comes From".

Sriad wrote:It probably helps that Zhōngguó (literally "Middle/central country") is the current Mandarin/Pinyin name for China and has been the name assumed by regions that wanted to be considered the contemporary seat of power in China over the last 1000 years.

Zhōngguó is pronounced roughly Chun-gwah which is phonetically very close to the English "China".

Most names for China, historically and in modern times, derive from either Qin (Qin Shi Huang consolidated most of the Chinese Empire that lasted until 1912), the phoenetically similar Jìn dynasty, or various local versions of "The Place Silk Comes From".

well, ʈʂʊŋku̯ɔ and tʃaınə being close is really a matter of opinion- they both start with a tsh-sounding noise and have an n, but if zhongguo were adapted to english it'd probably be something more like chunkwa or chungwa than china. So I'd call it more a coincidence or a very, very distant 'cognacy' (actually distorted loan of some kind), mostly because of the distance between flipped-omega and the aj noise, and open-o vs schwa.

ray245 wrote:

fgalkin wrote: Because the first contact with the Europeans came at the time of Marco Polo, who used the Persian name for it, which happens to be Chin, borrowed from the Sanskrit (this is turned into "Cathay" in translations of his book, for some odd reason, obscuring the connection).

If I remember things correctly, I thought that the Tang Dynasty is pretty well known in the middle eastern region as well, with diplomantic relationship between the Byzantine empire and the Sassanid empire as well? Didn't those people update their names for China at the least?

They Byzantines, did, sort of, but there really wasn't that much contact between them, and they might not have even known they referred to the same thing.

I mean even the Chinese updated their name for the Roman empire.

fgalkin wrote:The Chinese, of course, DID refer to their country as Qin when the name entered Sanskrit, it is even mentioned in the Mahabaratas.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

However, that did not explain why did the Europeans use the name China as a whole, as compared to Cathay?

Some do. In Russian, for example, it's Китай (Kitai), and obvious derivative of Cathay (which Marco Polo used to refer to the northern parts of China).

There are also prefixes "Sino-" which comes from the earlier Roman name. Really, English names for China are all over the place.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

fgalkin2 wrote:
However, that did not explain why did the Europeans use the name China as a whole, as compared to Cathay?

Some do. In Russian, for example, it's Китай (Kitai), and obvious derivative of Cathay (which Marco Polo used to refer to the northern parts of China).

There are also prefixes "Sino-" which comes from the earlier Roman name. Really, English names for China are all over the place.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin[/quote]

However, the question why did the word 'China' became a popular usage to describe 'China' was not answered. We all know there is tons of names for China, but what event caused it? Is it due to schools textbooks? Politicians writing down the name China on a piece of paper and etc?

Not to spam but when doing my impression of an upper class gent I can pronounce the last part of "Sima Qian" as china. I like to imagine that misunderstandings could have lead to people thinking that any material by him was about China rather than by china.

Broomstick wrote:You might as well ask why English speakers call a certain nation "Germany" and the French call it "Allemagne", neither of which resemble "Deutschland", which is what the inhabitants of that nation call it. Some nation names seem to travel easily and change little, other nation's seemed to have a different name everywhere you go.

Easy - the french call it that because the majority of the early german kingdom was centered in a region called alemania by latin speakers. Germany is derived from Germania, the latin word for land on the right side of the Rhine. And "Deutschland" is derived from the word teutsch, which is derived from the teutons, a famous germanic tribe.

fgalkin2 wrote:They Byzantines, did, sort of, but there really wasn't that much contact between them, and they might not have even known they referred to the same thing.

There also was direct diplomatic contact between the Romans and the Chinese around 170 AD. I am unaware at the moment what the Byzantines or Romans called China, but if I have time, I'll try and dig something up.

Thanas wrote:

Broomstick wrote:You might as well ask why English speakers call a certain nation "Germany" and the French call it "Allemagne", neither of which resemble "Deutschland", which is what the inhabitants of that nation call it. Some nation names seem to travel easily and change little, other nation's seemed to have a different name everywhere you go.

Easy - the french call it that because the majority of the early german kingdom was centered in a region called alemania by latin speakers. Germany is derived from Germania, the latin word for land on the right side of the Rhine. And "Deutschland" is derived from the word teutsch, which is derived from the teutons, a famous germanic tribe.

I expect the origin of "China" is also as equally plain and equally opaque. There is, no doubt, a series of word-borrowings that can be followed once known, but there is still a certain level of arbitrary circumstances. Why don't English speakers calls Germany something like "Alemany" and the French call it "Germania"?

fgalkin2 wrote:They Byzantines, did, sort of, but there really wasn't that much contact between them, and they might not have even known they referred to the same thing.

There also was direct diplomatic contact between the Romans and the Chinese around 170 AD. I am unaware at the moment what the Byzantines or Romans called China, but if I have time, I'll try and dig something up.

It wouldn't surprise me if Imperial Rome had more direct contact (or at least fewer intermediaries) than Byzantium did.

Broomstick wrote:

Thanas wrote: There also was direct diplomatic contact between the Romans and the Chinese around 170 AD. I am unaware at the moment what the Byzantines or Romans called China, but if I have time, I'll try and dig something up.

It wouldn't surprise me if Imperial Rome had more direct contact (or at least fewer intermediaries) than Byzantium did.

From what I remember, there seems to be far more contact between the Tang and the Constantinople, as compared to the Han and the Romans.

Given that the Tang is far more expansionistic than the Han, with an active presence in Central Asia.

fgalkin wrote: Because the first contact with the Europeans came at the time of Marco Polo, who used the Persian name for it, which happens to be Chin, borrowed from the Sanskrit (this is turned into "Cathay" in translations of his book, for some odd reason, obscuring the connection).

The Chinese, of course, DID refer to their country as Qin when the name entered Sanskrit, it is even mentioned in the Mahabaratas.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I thought the term Cathay was derived from the Khitans (Qi Dan in Chinese) an ethnic group which eventually founded the Kingdom of Liao bordering Chinese Song dynasty. IIRC their descendents are thought to be one of the smaller ethnic minorities living in China.

Broomstick wrote:I expect the origin of "China" is also as equally plain and equally opaque. There is, no doubt, a series of word-borrowings that can be followed once known, but there is still a certain level of arbitrary circumstances. Why don't English speakers calls Germany something like "Alemany" and the French call it "Germania"?

Because alemania sounds more like Allemagne than Alemany and when the french kingdom was split up, the treaty of verdun gave the grand portion of the former alemannic kingdom to Louis.

When the english got their language together, there already was a Holy Roman Empire which controlled all of Germany, therefore they used the latin word germania.

fgalkin2 wrote:They Byzantines, did, sort of, but there really wasn't that much contact between them, and they might not have even known they referred to the same thing.

There also was direct diplomatic contact between the Romans and the Chinese around 170 AD. I am unaware at the moment what the Byzantines or Romans called China, but if I have time, I'll try and dig something up.

It wouldn't surprise me if Imperial Rome had more direct contact (or at least fewer intermediaries) than Byzantium did.

It would surprise me, as there was Parthia and Persia to consider. Same problem with the Byzantines, but they could take the northern road via Georgia etc. This was not available to Imperial Rome.

mr friendly guy wrote:I thought the term Cathay was derived from the Khitans (Qi Dan in Chinese) an ethnic group which eventually founded the Kingdom of Liao bordering Chinese Song dynasty. IIRC their descendents are thought to be one of the smaller ethnic minorities living in China.

Yes, you are correct. Marco Polo uses "Catai" in his book when referring to northern china and "manji" when referring to southern china.

Thanas wrote: Yes, you are correct. Marco Polo uses "Catai" in his book when referring to northern china and "manji" when referring to southern china.

Presumably though, the term didn't originate from Marco Polo. The reason I say this is the Khitan's should no longer be a political or military force by the time Polo visited China (Yuan dynasty), having had their kingdom conquered by the Jin (Gold) Kingdom and then the Jin themselves were defeated the Mongols (even before the Mongols took over the Southern Song dynasty).

mr friendly guy wrote:

Thanas wrote: Yes, you are correct. Marco Polo uses "Catai" in his book when referring to northern china and "manji" when referring to southern china.

Presumably though, the term didn't originate from Marco Polo. The reason I say this is the Khitan's should no longer be a political or military force by the time Polo visited China (Yuan dynasty), having had their kingdom conquered by the Jin (Gold) Kingdom and then the Jin themselves were defeated the Mongols (even before the Mongols took over the Southern Song dynasty).

Yes, but the Mongols and others continued using the terms. Just like the franks used alemannia to refer to a specific region despite having conquered the Alemannen themselves.

Well, we do know there was something of a silk road that ran through the Sassanid Empire but it was blocked later. Then Justinian pulled off the silk worm corporate espionage stun. I wonder if the Chinese knew of it.

Since lots of knowledgeable folks are already discussing origin of other country names I too wish to ask one. But I do not wish to clutter up the History forum with another thread.

So here is my question how did the name India came to be ?

Sarevok wrote:Since lots of knowledgeable folks are already discussing origin of other country names I too wish to ask one. But I do not wish to clutter up the History forum with another thread.

So here is my question how did the name India came to be ?

Thats easy - from the river Indus. The Persians, Greeks and the romans all called the lands east of the Indus India. The name then stuck.

Thanas wrote:

Broomstick wrote:I expect the origin of "China" is also as equally plain and equally opaque. There is, no doubt, a series of word-borrowings that can be followed once known, but there is still a certain level of arbitrary circumstances. Why don't English speakers calls Germany something like "Alemany" and the French call it "Germania"?

Because alemania sounds more like Allemagne than Alemany and when the french kingdom was split up, the treaty of verdun gave the grand portion of the former alemannic kingdom to Louis.

When the english got their language together, there already was a Holy Roman Empire which controlled all of Germany, therefore they used the latin word germania.

I'm not sure if you're getting my point that a lot of this multiplicity of names has to do with historical timing and to some degree random circumstance. If the time of contact or treaties had been different the names may well have been different.

There is also the factor that different arrangements of phonemes may enter a language with different degrees of ease that no doubt also affects these things.

Broomstick wrote:

Thanas wrote:

Broomstick wrote:I expect the origin of "China" is also as equally plain and equally opaque. There is, no doubt, a series of word-borrowings that can be followed once known, but there is still a certain level of arbitrary circumstances. Why don't English speakers calls Germany something like "Alemany" and the French call it "Germania"?

Because alemania sounds more like Allemagne than Alemany and when the french kingdom was split up, the treaty of verdun gave the grand portion of the former alemannic kingdom to Louis.

When the english got their language together, there already was a Holy Roman Empire which controlled all of Germany, therefore they used the latin word germania.

I'm not sure if you're getting my point that a lot of this multiplicity of names has to do with historical timing and to some degree random circumstance.

Well, why do you think I elaborated on the circumstances?