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Even though Hollywood movies and popular 'history' documentary likes to depict the Romans armies wearing the Lorica Segmentata from the Republic era to the late Western Roman era, anyone who has read up on Roman history would know this isn't the case.

I've seen countless discussion about the usefulness of lorica Segmentata, ranging from fanboys who said it is the best Roman armour and hates the Roman from adopting a 'less roman' armour to people who says that the LS is one of the worst armour around.

Given the fact that the Romans would be idiots to drop the LS as their 'standard armour' if it is so useful and so easy to produce, the idea that the LS is the best Roman armour is busted. On the other hand, the fact that the Romans adopted the LS in the first place and did use it for a while means the LS must have its uses.

I've arguments saying a plate armour seems like an easier armour to make as opposed to scale or chain armour, the fact that plate armour is good for absorbing blunt trauma attacks with the additional fact that it is also easier to maintain. On the other, the opposition did make a reasonable case saying that the LS was not made of good quality steel, with the additional fact that it is uncomfortable to wear and move around in.

Even if the LS is not a good armour, that does not tell us why did the Romans adopt the LS in the first place? Why did it become so well known that we have seen countless depictions of Roman soldiers wearing it in columns and etc?

So how useful is the LS as an armour? I've have read some books on the LS, but it seems to me there is no clear stance in regards to the usefulness of the LS.

I make no claim to being any sort of authority on armor, but didn't plate armor have to be custom fitted to whoever wore it, and if that person's body shape changed significantly (weight gain or loss) it might no longer be wearable? From what little I know of the lorica segmentata it seems that there was more "give" in the fitting, so that it would not require custom fitting and could even be passed on to another person. The lorica was also made in several pieces, wasn't it? Would that allow someone to take badly damaged suits and make whole, workable armor out of intact pieces? Or allow replacement of badly damaged pieces without reworking the whole suit? That might be a significant advantage to an army outfitting a lot of people in similar armor.

Chain and scale type mail seems more common around the world than plate armor, which was a late development in Europe. I think those arguing the superiority of plate armor may be a little too accustomed to modern metal-working which routinely turns out large slabs of high quality steel. In the past forges were smaller, with limited heat, quality control, and capacity of volume. It may be that scale and chain were what the smiths of a particular culture were able to produce reliably and in sufficient quantity and thus that is what the armor was made of. Again, I'm no expert and I certainly don't know what the capacity of Roman smiths was. Then, too, the Roman Empire covered a vast territory - it wouldn't surprise me if the armor of the troops in and around the city of Rome itself differed from what was worn (because that's what was available) on the edges of the Empire.

ray245 wrote:Even though Hollywood movies and popular 'history' documentary likes to depict the Romans armies wearing the Lorica Segmentata from the Republic era to the late Western Roman era, anyone who has read up on Roman history would know this isn't the case.

I've seen countless discussion about the usefulness of lorica Segmentata, ranging from fanboys who said it is the best Roman armour and hates the Roman from adopting a 'less roman' armour to people who says that the LS is one of the worst armour around.

Given the fact that the Romans would be idiots to drop the LS as their 'standard armour' if it is so useful and so easy to produce, the idea that the LS is the best Roman armour is busted. On the other hand, the fact that the Romans adopted the LS in the first place and did use it for a while means the LS must have its uses.

Well the Greek Hoplite armor would certainly be harder to produce, if not for the fact there's a material difference. Seems as how your objection rest squarely on the principle that the best option for a Army is to excel in terms of individuals, might I draw your attention to the development of the Musket.

At the time of its introduction it can be argued that the Musket was lacking in terms of range, power, and reliability with its contemporaries. It was however easier to train conscripts in then those contemporaries. The development of the ring and socket bayonet and the proving of its ability to remove the need for accompanying pikemen to counter cavalry corresponded with the development of reliable Flintlocks, bringing it more or less to maturity. This allowed larger more homogenous armies to be raised having most of the capabilities of the groups they replaced in each soldier. So sometimes it is worthwhile to take a performance hit to be able to produce more.

What happened to the price of iron/steel at the time would seem to be an important question as the lorica Segmentata uses a lot of iron for what it does with all the overlapping plates. In those days material was expensive, labor was not. Further the professionalism of the troops should be a question, as all that material should add weight verse perfectly adequate chain mail. I know the Romans started with a professional army and it more or less degraded over time, but that's not an area I've found interesting enough to obsess over so I'm not familiar with the particulars. It would make sense for a more disciplined force to get the best protection possible, while a conscript one get merely adequate from many perspectives, including willingness to wear it and do all the stuff they're supposed to.

Broomstick- on the sizing of plate, you're mostly correct but there is a little wriggle room. Hopefully not literally. The tolerances are by hand and eye anyway, and if the wearer has any sense at all, there's significant padding underneath. A slightly smaller suit, you can squash into; a slightly larger, wear more padding- it's actually easier to fit into an oversize than an undersize suit by a long way.

Flab isn't so much of an issue. Resizing a suit for someone else, gross differences in body shape, probably not, but given how much of it is catch as catch can anyway, more likely to swap plates out than have to go for a full new suit. Arm and leg length is the real issue, for articulation purposes, and if those change you have other problems anyhow. Not that that was a problem in the classic lorica segmentata.

The articulation on lorica segmentata, if I'm right on this, was by means of the clasps holding the yoke to the main body, and the lacing around the- I'm sure there's a technical term, but it looked like a corset to me. (Actually, I think the later term in french is the corselet.) The pauldrons, to use a later term, aren't metal joined to metal, but overlapping strips of metal linked by a leather flap which can flex, and the extent of the overlap isn't that great on the corselet- millimetres. More on the shoulders.

Plate is not easier to maintain. Chainmail is essentially self- cleaning, the rings rub against each other, and if you have some wire (heat a piece of metal and draw it out and you have wire, wind it round a spindle and you have open links) and two pairs of pliers, you can fix holes and adjust it to size. Plate you have to scour clean and polish regularly, and if it gets dented you have to beat it back into shape, which is fun without a mould.

Admittedly, none of the individual plates of lorica are that big, and could probably be hand squashed with a suitable rock and sufficient ug power, but then you have the leather flanges to repair.

Fog, are you thinking of slave labour for those costs? There's really not that much in it in terms of weight, considering the basic determinant is how much the poor miles gregarius can carry anyway, and I don't think the rest of his kit left him with much spare carrying capacity.

Plate is definitely more demanding to make and look after, and forging and tempering it properly is the province of a skilled craftsman, not the common or garden blacksmith who can turn out mail links. It's the labour rather than the material costs which are likely to be the diffeence between the two. Also, weather. Plate armour traps heat in summer, radiates it away in winter- chain, I don't know entirely why, seems more weatherproof, less likely to cause the wearer to roast.

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:Fog, are you thinking of slave labour for those costs?

Roman times means everything is done by human power, and this is well before toys like blast furnaces came on the scene. Processing steel the old fashioned way isn't exactly easy, which made it doubly expensive. If you prefer, it took a ridiculous number of people to do get the material to the guy who made it into something, and the simpler it is the easier it is for a Blacksmith to assign it to a apprentice level workers and otherwise.

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:There's really not that much in it in terms of weight, considering the basic determinant is how much the poor miles gregarius can carry anyway, and I don't think the rest of his kit left him with much spare carrying capacity.

Ever met an infantryman that thought his rifle was too light? Flak jackets from the Vietnam era didn't exactly weigh much either, but that's another story and there's no point going off topic to discuss that.

FOG3 wrote:I know the Romans started with a professional army and it more or less degraded over time, but that's not an area I've found interesting enough to obsess over so I'm not familiar with the particulars. It would make sense for a more disciplined force to get the best protection possible, while a conscript one get merely adequate from many perspectives, including willingness to wear it and do all the stuff they're supposed to.

Great, I would not want to be around once Thanas read what you said about the Roman Army degrading over time.

Try reading this thread first. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&start=25