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Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 04:08pm
by Thanas
Once more, archeology proves that literary roman sources are far more accurate that people give them credit for.
Telegraph
Remains of the fabled dining hall have been discovered on the city's Palatine Hill, where emperors traditionally built their most lavish palaces.
The hall is said to have had a revolving wooden floor which allowed guests to survey a ceiling painted with stars and equipped with panels from which flower petals and perfume would shower onto the tables below.
The remains of the room were found by archeologists excavating the Domus Aurea, or Golden House, which was built for Nero during his reign from 54 to 68AD.
The leader of the four month dig, Françoise Villedieu, said her team discovered part of a circular room which was supported by a pillar with a diameter of more than 13 feet.
The Roman historian Suetonius described the unique revolving room in his Lives of the Caesars, written about 60 years after Nero's death.
"The chief banqueting room was circular and revolved perpetually, night and day, in imitation of the motion of the celestial bodies," he wrote.
Quite interesting.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 04:22pm
by Bounty
I remember thinking when I read Suetonius that that would be a very Nero thing to build, and the fact that it existed doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm more surprised that they're digging at the Domus Aurea - when I was there (it's the hillside complex overlooking the race track, right?) it looked like one of those sites that was dug dry ages ago and put out to touristic pasture. Good to hear there's still work being done and that it's getting valuable results.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 04:23pm
by Thanas
So far they have only excavated about 30% of it iirc.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 04:33pm
by Bounty
Thanas wrote:So far they have only excavated about 30% of it iirc.
Huh. I figured it was one of those village bicycle sites - everyone's had a go. It's been getting looted since the 16th century.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 05:49pm
by Thanas
There is that small matter of the Roman Senate (read: Vespasian) ordering it to be filled with earth and built over. So you have several temples and the massive bath of Trajan built over it. In oder to loot it, one would need to first entirely dismantle the baths of Trajan and all other buildings above it.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:06pm
by TC Pilot
Sounds like a good find. Who knows what else is still buried out there. Maybe we'll get lucky one day and someone will stumble across a perfectly-perserved library.
For whatever reason, I didn't realize Nero built his palace on the Palatine until just now. I thought it was on the opposite side of the Coloseum...
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:07pm
by Bounty
Thanas wrote:There is that small matter of the Roman Senate (read: Vespasian) ordering it to be filled with earth and built over. So you have several temples and the massive bath of Trajan built over it. In oder to loot it, one would need to first entirely dismantle the baths of Trajan and all other buildings above it.
Artists managed it in the late fourteenth century - hence the Grotesque movement copying the art inside. If there's something of value to be found, few people will be kept out, buildings and earth be damned.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:10pm
by Siege
I wonder what they used to keep the room rotating. Animals or slaves? Either way it's pretty remarkable (and exactly the sort of thing you'd expect Nero to construct). I remember that a few years ago there was a lot to do about a local restaurant around here which had a slowly revolving dining floor -- I knew they were far from the first to build something like that, but I didn't know the idea went back 1,950 years
.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:12pm
by Thanas
Yes, but without shovels and illicit digging will only get you so far. For example, people still do not know how large the whole complex really is.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:14pm
by Bounty
Have they done subsurface scanning yet? Or is there too much noise from later buildings?
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:16pm
by Thanas
I honestly do not know, but I don't think you can do that in such a city like rome.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:24pm
by Bounty
You can't use it to get any sort of clear picture of
what is there, but you can see
if something's there. From what I (vaguely!) remember from when I was there most of the complex was overgrown and not rebuilt after Antiquity, so
theoretically you should be able to get a baseline for what is "antique" with something like GPR and see where that baseline changes.
Then again, lots of rock... you'll probably just get garbage data no matter what method you use. And of course, if it were that simple, someone'd have tried it already
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:27pm
by Isolder74
I'm sure that someone prone to motion sickness would not be able to enjoy a meal there.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:30pm
by Bounty
According to Suetonius it rotated along with the sun. I don't think you can get sick at 0.0006944 RPM
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:31pm
by Thanas
Isolder74 wrote:I'm sure that someone prone to motion sickness would not be able to enjoy a meal there.
Why? The room allegedly followed the motion of the stars, which move very slow.
It was no carousel.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-29 06:33pm
by Isolder74
Thanas wrote:Isolder74 wrote:I'm sure that someone prone to motion sickness would not be able to enjoy a meal there.
Why? The room allegedly followed the motion of the stars, which move very slow.
It was no carousel.
It still moves enough to be noticeable which could be a problem.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-30 06:08am
by Thanas
As Bounty writes, 0.0006944 RPM are noticeable?
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-30 01:03pm
by Fingolfin_Noldor
How do you even come close to that precision? That's as good as giving it a small ... push?
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-09-30 01:14pm
by Thanas
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:How do you even come close to that precision? That's as good as giving it a small ... push?
Well, presumably it was changed to fit whatever constellation the astrologers deemed to be lucky at the moment. However, the egyptians managed to do so, so why shouldn't the romans be able to do so? It is not like there was a shortage of slaves available for corrections.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-10-01 01:50am
by Fingolfin_Noldor
Thanas wrote:Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:How do you even come close to that precision? That's as good as giving it a small ... push?
Well, presumably it was changed to fit whatever constellation the astrologers deemed to be lucky at the moment. However, the egyptians managed to do so, so why shouldn't the romans be able to do so? It is not like there was a shortage of slaves available for corrections.
Is it possible the Romans could have used a kind of steam engine approach? I remember reading that they had some kind of steam engine around (or water engine).
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-10-01 04:53am
by Thanas
Possible, but the sources do not mention that. And I doubt you would want to use a steam engine in the vicinity of a dining room anyway.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-10-01 05:31am
by Bounty
Steam power was a novelty toy in Antiquity, not a viable power source.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-10-01 05:38am
by Stark
I know the sources say it rotated to present views to the diners, but is it more likely to turned slowly like a carousel or that it was aligned appropriately at the time of meal? I guess they'd need to turn it constantly anyway, if meals were very long...
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-10-31 09:25am
by Colonel Olrik
An hydraulic + gears system would work quite nicely to provide a slow, continuous motion.
Re: Nero's rotating dining room discovered?
Posted: 2009-10-31 02:24pm
by Sea Skimmer
A gearing and shafting system linked to a capstan turned by slaves seems far more likely to me then anything. This kind of technology would be simple and reliable. I don’t know why you’d hydraulics into the equation. The rate of rotation might not be continuous for keeping down the noise of all the moving parts, which was bound to have been a problem without modern bearings.