The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

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The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Rogue 9 »

“The War of Northern Aggression” is a popular phrase among Confederate apologists, referring to the supposed outrageous aggression shown by the Union to bring the otherwise peaceful Confederate States back under its rule. But how true is it?

I have dealt at length in previous essays about the motivations of the Slave Power and with the constitutional issues of secession itself. Here, I will concentrate on what the states of the Deep South did in the decades leading up to the Civil War and their part in bringing war upon the United States.

The Nullification Crisis and John C. Calhoun

On November 24, 1832 a so-called Nullification Convention of South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification, unilaterally declaring the federal tariffs of 1828 and 1832 unconstitutional and void within the boundaries of the state. Concurrently, Governor Robert Hayne began military preparations to resist federal enforcement, raising a volunteer minuteman army of 2,000 cavalry and 25,000 infantry. The famous Force Bill authorizing military action against South Carolina was passed by Congress in February 1833, but a compromise tariff acceptable to South Carolina was also passed at the same time, prompting the withdrawal of the Ordinance and defusing the military crisis. Although violence did not result, South Carolina's willingness to use force to resolve internal political disputes was well established.

One of Nullification's chief architects was John C. Calhoun, a leading South Carolina politician and Andrew Jackson's vice president. The split with Jackson over nullification prompted Calhoun's resignation and run for the Senate in 1832, but his long career of political blackmail against Northern interests and particularly abolitionists extended back even into his days as a loyal vice president. In 1826, when confronted with the prospect of recognition of the independence of Haiti (which had recently undergone a revolution against French colonialism led by free blacks and the island's slaves), Calhoun had dire warnings for his government. To Secretary of the Navy Samuel Southard, he wrote:
It is a delicate subject, and would in the present tone of feelings to the South lead to great mischief. It is not so much recognition simply as what must follow it. We must send and receive ministers, and what would be our social relations to a Black minister in Washington? Must he be received or excluded from our dinners, our dances and our parties, and must his daughters and sons participate in the society of our daughters and sons? … Small as these considerations appear to be they involve the peace and perhaps the union of our nation.


The implicit threat achieved the hoped-for result: The United States did not recognize Haiti until 1862, with the Civil War in full swing and its agitation of the Deep South long past relevant. Nor was this the last time Calhoun would use the tactic of predicting the destruction of the Union as a result of a proposed policy to thwart its implementation. On March 4, 1850, less than a month before his death, Calhoun prepared a speech for the Senate floor which was read by Senator James Mason of Alabama, due to Calhoun's failing health leaving him unable to speak. In it, he extensively laid the blame for Southern discontent directly at the feet of the North, speaking in broad terms of the sections as wholes and warning of disunion should the North not agree to Southern demands. In his conclusion, he stated:
The North has only to will [the preservation of the Union] to accomplish it—to do justice by conceding to the South an equal right in the acquired Territory [California], and to do her duty by causing the stipulations relative to fugitive slaves to be faithfully fulfilled—to cease the agitation of the slave question, and to provide for the insertion of a provision in the Constitution, by an amendment, which will restore to the South in substance the power which she possessed in protecting herself. ... But will the North agree to do this? It is for her to answer this question. But, I will say, she cannot refuse, if she has half the love of the Union which she professes to have... At all events, the responsibility of saving the Union rests on the North, and not the South.


The speech was a rhetorical masterpiece, methodically (and intentionally) laying the North and South at odds with each other, alleging a crisis, and then laying all responsibility for solving it upon the North. Calhoun sent a copy of the speech to Henry W. Conner, accompanied by this letter:
My speech, of which a copy will be enclosed to you by the mail, which takes this, was read today in the Senate. My friends think it among my most successful efforts, & that it made a profound impression. I, trust, that our friends in Charleston will give it a wide circulation. You will see, that I have made up the issue between North & South. If we flinch we are gone; but, if we stand fast on it, we shall triumph, either by compelling the North to yield to our terms or declaring our Indepen[den]ce of them. Truly, J.C.C.
By this, if by nothing else he wrote, it is clear that Calhoun was intentionally engaging in political brinksmanship, aggressively gambling with the Union itself to achieve his political goal of spreading what he saw as the positive good of slavery. The “equal right” in California he referred to in his speech was the right to hold slaves, which he conflated with the rights of the Southern section in general as a rhetorical device; the point of contention was whether or not California should be admitted to the Union as a free state without a counterpart slave state to keep representation in the Senate equal. Far from the typical picture of a reluctant South seceding as a last resort to escape Northern oppression, Calhoun was quite willing and even eager to destroy the Union for political gain.

Threats and Violence: California, Preston Brooks, and the House (Divided)

Such tactics and sentiments were hardly unique to Calhoun, and not all those who agreed with him were so subtle. On the issue of California, Congressman Albert Brown of Mississippi said on the House floor:
The southern States ... will devise means for vindicating their rights. I do not know what these means will be, but I know what they may be ... They may be to carry slaves into all of southern California, as the property of sovereign States, and there hold them, as we have a right to do; and if molested, defend them ... We ask you to give us our rights by non-intervention; if you refuse, I am for taking them by armed occupation.
In response to Calhoun's speech, James Hammond, a fellow South Carolinian planter and slaveholder, wrote to the Senator two days later, saying:
Our only safety is in equality of power. We must divide the territories so as forever to retain that equality in the Senate at least … I would infinitely prefer disunion to any thing the least short of this … If the North will not consent to this I think we should not have another word to say, but kick them out of the Capitol & set it on fire.
Of course, California was admitted and none of these things came to pass, but not for lack of concessions to the Slave Power. As part of the compromise for the admission of California (the aptly named Compromise of 1850) the remaining former Mexican territories (Utah and New Mexico) enacted slave codes, the infamous Fugitive Slave Act was strengthened (barring free states from requiring trials for alleged escaped slaves and requiring the assistance of their law enforcement in capturing fugitives, removing much of the nothern states' right to self-government), and California even sent one pro-slavery Senator to Washington to maintain “balance” in the Senate despite such views not representing the state's population.

These tactics of threatening disunion and war if this or that policy was not acceded to by the free states continued throughout the 1850s. During the presidential race of 1856, the candidacy of Republican John C. Frémont was vehemently opposed in the South for his party's anti-slavery views, leading Senator James Mason of Virginia to write to Jefferson Davis, who would later become the president of the Confederate States and was then the Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce:
I have a letter from [Virginia Governor Henry] WISE, of the 27th, full of spirit. He says the Governments of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana, have already agreed to rendezvous at Raleigh, and others will—this in your most private ear. He says, further, that he had officially requested you to exchange with Virginia, on fair terms of difference, percussion for flint muskets. I don't know the usage or power of the Department in such cases, but if it can be done, even by liberal construction, I hope you will accede. … Virginia probably has more arms than the other Southern States, and would divide in case of need. In a letter yesterday to a Committee in South Carolina. I gave it as my judgment, in the event of FREMONT's election, the South should not pause, but proceed at once to "immediate, absolute, and eternal separation."
Senator Mason directly requested the Secretary of War to arm the southern states for war against the United States, a full four years before any actual secession, based on the possibility of a Republican president. This did not come to pass, of course, because Frémont lost the election (in no small part due to the specter of the threat of war), but even the asking is telling.

But that's child's play compared to the election of the Speaker of the House in 1859. In that year, a Republican representative from Ohio by the name of John Sherman was a candidate for the Speaker's gavel. That he was a Republican was bad enough for the delegations of the slave states, but the real rub was that Sherman had endorsed Hinton Helper's controversial (in the South) book, The Impending Crisis of the South: How to Meet It, in which Helper, a virulently racist North Carolinian, argued against slavery on the basis that it destroyed property values and otherwise retarded the economy of the South, to the detriment of non-slaveholding whites. Nevermind that Sherman had withdrawn his endorsement after learning the full extent of Helper's views, or that Helper was not a morally-motivated abolitionist; he was an abolitionist nonetheless, and no one who had ever endorsed his book would be Speaker if the Congressional delegation of South Carolina had anything to say about it.

As it happens, they had quite a bit to say, and every word scathingly treasonous, even by secessionist standards. Because they did not propose secession, peaceful or otherwise, should Sherman win the seat; rather they were prepared to initiate a bloody coup on the House floor. Representative William Porcher Miles of South Carolina was prepared to do anything to prevent Sherman's taking of the Speakership, and asked Governor William Gist of South Carolina whether the legislature there would support the Congressional delegation's plotting. In response, on December 20, 1859 (one year to the day before South Carolina's secession) Gist posted a letter to Miles. While he cautioned against rashly provoking the free states, advising that a bloodless revolution would be preferable, he placed the matter in Miles' judgment, saying:
While I advise against the ejection of Sherman if elected, I do not wish to be understood as not desiring the war to begin at Washington; but as I would prefer it should begin in sudden heat & with good provocation rather than a deliberate determination to perform an act of violence which might prejudice us in the eyes of the world. … If however, you upon consideration decide to make the issue of fire in Washington, write or telegraph me, & I will have a Regiment in or near Washington in the shortest possible time.
To be clear, this wasn't a matter of national slavery policy, or even of lasting legislation at all; the government of South Carolina was prepared to use military force to influence the internal political workings of the federal Congress over what amounted to personal dislike of the candidate for an action the candidate had since disavowed. Once again, this crisis was defused by the free state delegations acceding to Southern demands; Sherman was withdrawn from consideration as a candidate for Speaker.

Even when not threatening violence and rebellion, Calhoun's mode of threatening secession and disunion continued to be popular with slave state politicians throughout the 1850s. The Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854, nullifying the Missouri Compromise by permitting the slavery question to be determined by popular sovereignty (and setting the stage for Bleeding Kansas, in which opposing sides attempting to gain a majority of the electorate simply by killing the other side's voters), was passed under such threats, and when popular sovereignty failed to deliver a slave state in Kansas, threats of secession were again made if the pro-slavery Lecompton Constitution was not accepted as the governing document of a new state of Kansas. “If Kansas is driven out of the Union for being a slave state, can any slave state remain in it with honor?” asked Senator Hammond of South Carolina (who, readers will no doubt recall, advocated burning down the Capitol if California was not made a slave state). These threats prompted President Buchanan to urge acceptance of the Lecompton document, saying that if he did not, the slave states would “secede from the Union or take up arms against us.” In the end, the Lecompton document was rejected and sent back for a new referendum, which failed; Kansas would not become a state, slave or free, for quite some time yet, removing the immediate crisis.

But no account of 1850s slave state aggression would be complete without mentioning Preston Brooks, representative of South Carolina, and his armed assault against Senator Charles Sumner on the Senate floor on May 22, 1856. Senator Sumner had in the preceding days given a speech denouncing the slaughter in the Kansas territory over the slavery issue, and had scathing words for Senator Andrew Butler, a relative of Brooks. In response, Brooks, along with two companions, walked into the Senate chamber, briefly addressed Sumner, and then commenced beating him with a heavy cane, cudgeling the Senator until he broke his bolted down Senate desk from the floor, rendered Sumner unconscious, and continued beating the unfortunate Senator until he broke his cane.

The incident was instantly infamous. Brooks was roundly censured by the House, but nearly unanimously reelected by his constituents. He received new canes from all over the South, including one bearing the inscription “Use Knock-Down Arguments” and another saying “Hit Him Again.”

The Crisis Comes: 1860-61

By the close of the 1850s, the long string of Southern aggressions had long since begun to wear thin on the patience of the free states, and especially the Republican Party. Abraham Lincoln, by now a candidate for President, said in an address to the Cooper Institute in New York, intended to be read by Southerners:
But you will not abide the election of a Republican president! In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"
Of course, Lincoln's candidacy was successful. This was the first time anyone since Andrew Jackson who had shown any backbone in standing up to their threats had taken high office. The Deep South's secessions were swift. South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas all seceded before Lincoln even took office. I have extensively covered their stated reasons for doing so elsewhere, but preemptive secession (and accompanying seizure of federal property, notably forts and armories) is not a passive act, to put it mildly. On January 11, 1861, the day of Alabama's secession, Lincoln wrote to a Republican congressman who proposed an emergency compromise to forestall and reverse the secessions:
We have just carried an election on principles fairly stated to the people. Now we are told in advance, the government shall be broken up, unless we surrender to those we have beaten, before we take the offices. In this they are either attempting to play upon us or they are in dead earnest. Either way, if we surrender, it is the end of us and of the government. They will repeat the experiment upon us ad libitum. A year will not pass till we shall have to take Cuba as a condition upon which they will stay in the Union.
Compromise at this stage was impossible. Lincoln saw, with more clarity than his predecessor, that the South would never cease holding threats over the heads of the free states until the question was solved. “The tug has to come, and better now than later,” he wrote in December, 1860. All that remained now was the tug itself.

That came at Fort Sumter. The fort was a federal installation, manned by federal troops, which the state of South Carolina had by statute voluntarily surrendered all claim to in 1836. In short, it was thoroughly the property of the United States, even if one is so generous as to presume the legitimacy of secession through the means used by South Carolina. As every high school student in the United States knows, South Carolinian forces fired on Fort Sumter from the batteries of Fort Johnson, Fort Moultrie, and Cummings Point starting at 4:30 am on April 12, 1861.

This was, of course, the ultimate aggression of the South: Southern partisans bombarded and captured a manned United States military fortification, touching off a war that killed more Americans than any other war in history, almost as many as all other American wars combined.

Conclusion

The American Civil War was thoroughly of Southern construction. Between the administrations of Jackson and Lincoln, the federal government and free states had bent over backwards at every threat of the slaveholding South to prevent disunion; every single threat of secession and war was met with compromise and backing down. The so-called War of Northern Aggression is a fictional construct by the defenders of the fictional country known as the Confederate States of America, a thorough distortion of well-documented historical fact.

Author's Note: This essay's title, “The War of Southern Aggression,” is shared by an essay by James M. McPherson, a fact I discovered while conducting research for this article. Dr. McPherson's work is extremely well-written, and I recommend it to anyone with an interest in this subject. His book of essays containing his work by this title may be found on Google Books here, but I recommend purchasing the book, as I did after discovering it. No infringement is intended.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, I like it, but I'm a shameless pro-Union partisan. From everything I know of the era, Calhoun doesn't get nearly as much of the blame as he deserves for rallying the South into a pro-secession, pro-slavery, reactionary bloc.

Sometimes I think that if life were fair, he'd be regarded as about one step below Benedict Arnold...
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Mystikal »

Calhoun should have been shot the moment he began looking like a damn Insane Asylum denizen. :lol:

No, but seriously, atleast one of our presidents wished he would have shot Calhoun when he had the chance. I think it was Jackson. Calhoun isn't given nearly enough BLAME for the Civil War. Hell, he was one of the guys who wanted the 1812 War to happen.

Hmm, he died 11 years before the start of the civil war.

I'll post a link and a copypasta of the Wikiarticle. (No you do not ~ Thanas)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Calhoun
Last edited by Thanas on 2010-03-22 01:38pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Vastatosaurus Rex »

Another fan of "the War of Southern Aggression" here. From now on, that's what I'm going to call the American Civil War. Hopefully it'll catch on.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by montypython »

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, I like it, but I'm a shameless pro-Union partisan. From everything I know of the era, Calhoun doesn't get nearly as much of the blame as he deserves for rallying the South into a pro-secession, pro-slavery, reactionary bloc.

Sometimes I think that if life were fair, he'd be regarded as about one step below Benedict Arnold...
To be honest, Benedict Arnold was more unfairly calumniated and less of a douchebag than Calhoun, who was far more of a hypocritical bastard/scumbag especially politically. Although secession was not strictly a Southern thing (New England considered it during the War of 1812 that Calhoun had a part in fomenting), the Southern rationale was much less legitimate than that of the New England States.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Mystikal »

montypython wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Well, I like it, but I'm a shameless pro-Union partisan. From everything I know of the era, Calhoun doesn't get nearly as much of the blame as he deserves for rallying the South into a pro-secession, pro-slavery, reactionary bloc.

Sometimes I think that if life were fair, he'd be regarded as about one step below Benedict Arnold...
To be honest, Benedict Arnold was more unfairly calumniated and less of a douchebag than Calhoun, who was far more of a hypocritical bastard/scumbag especially politically. Although secession was not strictly a Southern thing (New England considered it during the War of 1812 that Calhoun had a part in fomenting), the Southern rationale was much less legitimate than that of the New England States.

No, it was perfectly legitmate. Slavery was to the South like Oil is to us.

Get it?

Good.

Now, you might want to point out how every concession that could be made, was. But the truth of the matter is that the South had every right to secede if they felt like it. The Union was meant to be consensual and leavable if wished. The Southern reason for Seceding was a fear that the Republicans would take away Slavery and that Federal power was getting way out of hand. On the second one, many Southerners wanted to leave before the Federal gov't got to the point where it could make State power moot and pointless, ala today's situation.

The economic reason to the southerners appeared simple: take away slavery then cotton and the rest becomes uneconomical to farm and export. Guess what the southern economy utterly depended on?

No, the Southern States had a legitimate reason for leaving. They wanted to. Why?

1. Fear of Federal power overriding and forcing things down states throats.
2. Economical
3. Nearly irreconcilable political differences about how to run the country. If the South had been allowed to leave, then not only may have New England have followed(Maybe) but then the North would have been free to pursue it's interest without interference and obstinance from Southern politicians and the South would have been free from having to be so goddamn paranoid. Not only this, but as long as free-trade and free immigration was allowed between the two countries, then if someone had an issue with how one or the other ran their shit, they could go to the other one and live there. This was essentially how the states were intended to function. As semi-autonomous nations-states that each contributed to defense and had trade agreements. Essentially what the EU was. I can't quite word this right. But anyhow, say the North was growing more and more Socialist while the South (technically the CSA couldn't grow Fascist for several reasons) stayed rather conservative and at most, some of the states became Plutocratic/Theocratic/Militaristic/?Libertarian?. Then you could move to whichever one you agreed with most instead of being bounf to a Gov't you hated and were forced to attempt to change. Think about it. The country has been severly divided politically and it has gotten to the point that the gov't can barely work together to achieve much withou single party dominance. With this, both gov'ts would be much divided and both would have an easier time of getting shit done. And if a state or region wanted to do things differently, they could secede or simply attempt to pass state laws. BTW, who says they would have to stay enemies? Why couldn't they have mutual agreements on the lines of the Monroe Doctrine against European agression or a mutual defense and economic pact?

Sorry for the rant. But I think it goes to help explaining some of the non-slavery issues at the time.

Economical and Political differences for one meant a partialy unavoidable conflict was coming.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Rogue 9 »

There's always one... :roll:
Mystikal wrote:No, it was perfectly legitmate. Slavery was to the South like Oil is to us.

Get it?

Good.
The second part is true. The first part is not. Here's why:
United States Constitution, Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2 wrote:The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
And:
United States Constitution, Article 6, Clause 2 wrote:This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Secession is not constitutionally legitimate. Period.
Mystikal wrote:Now, you might want to point out how every concession that could be made, was. But the truth of the matter is that the South had every right to secede if they felt like it. The Union was meant to be consensual and leavable if wished. The Southern reason for Seceding was a fear that the Republicans would take away Slavery and that Federal power was getting way out of hand. On the second one, many Southerners wanted to leave before the Federal gov't got to the point where it could make State power moot and pointless, ala today's situation.
No, secession was not meant to be a legal option. Aside from the Constitution itself, allow me to quote James Madison on the subject: From this letter to William Rives.
The milliners it appears, endeavor to shelter themselves under a distinction between a delegation and a surrender of powers. But if the powers be attributes of sovereignty & nationality & the grant of them be perpetual, as is necessarily implied, where not otherwise expressed, sovereignty & nationality according to the extent of the grant are effectually transferred by it, and a dispute about the name, is but a battle of words. The practical result is not indeed left to argument or inference. The words of the Constitution are explicit that the Constitution & laws of the U. S. shall be supreme over the Constitution & laws of the several States, supreme in their exposition and execution as well as in their authority. Without a supremacy in those respects it would be like a scabbard in the hand of a soldier without a sword in it. The imagination itself is startled at the idea of twenty four independent expounders of a rule that cannot exist, but in a meaning and operation, the same for all.

The conduct of S. Carolina has called forth not only the question of nullification, but the more formidable one of secession. It is asked whether a State by resuming the sovereign form in which it entered the Union, may not of right withdraw from it at will. As this is a simple question whether a State, more than an individual, has a right to violate its engagements, it would seem that it might be safely left to answer itself. But the countenance given to the claim shows that it cannot be so lightly dismissed. The natural feelings which laudably attach the people composing a State, to its authority and importance, are at present too much excited by the unnatural feelings, with which they have been inspired agst their brethren of other States, not to expose them, to the danger of being misled into erroneous views of the nature of the Union and the interest they have in it. One thing at least seems to be too clear to be questioned, that whilst a State remains within the Union it cannot withdraw its citizens from the operation of the Constitution & laws of the Union. In the event of an actual secession without the Consent of the Co States, the course to be pursued by these involves questions painful in the discussion of them.
Madison actually considered the idea of secession so preposterous that until it actually came up when South Carolina first threatened it he felt there was no need to even mention it, and was astonished that he should have to. He also references the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution as proof positive that the states had no such ability. Or how about George Washington? This is from his Circular to the States.
There are four things, which I humbly conceive, are essential to the well being, I may even venture to say, to the existence of the United States as an Independent Power:

1st. An indissoluble Union of the States under one Federal Head.

2dly. A Sacred regard to Public Justice.

3dly. The adoption of a proper Peace Establishment, and

4thly. The prevalence of that pacific and friendly Disposition, among the People of the United States, which will induce them to forget their local prejudices and policies, to make those mutual concessions which are requisite to the general prosperity, and in some instances, to sacrifice their individual advantages to the interest of the Community.

<snip>

Under the first head, altho' it may not be necessary or proper for me in this place to enter into a particular disquisition of the principles of the Union, and to take up the great question which has been frequently agitated, whether it be expedient and requisite for the States to delegate a larger proportion of Power to Congress, or not, Yet it will be a part of my duty, and that of every true Patriot, to assert without reserve, and to insist upon the following positions, That unless the States will suffer Congress to exercise those prerogatives, they are undoubtedly invested with by the Constitution, every thing must very rapidly tend to Anarchy and confusion, That it is indispensable to the happiness of the individual States, that there should be lodged somewhere, a Supreme Power to regulate and govern the general concerns of the Confederated Republic, without which the Union cannot be of long duration. That there must be a faithful and pointed compliance on the part of every State, with the late proposals and demands of Congress, or the most fatal consequences will ensue, That whatever measures have a tendency to dissolve the Union, or contribute to violate or lessen the Sovereign Authority, ought to be considered as hostile to the Liberty and Independency of America, and the Authors of them treated accordingly, and lastly, that unless we can be enabled by the concurrence of the States, to participate of the fruits of the Revolution, and enjoy the essential benefits of Civil Society, under a form of Government so free and uncorrupted, so happily guarded against the danger of oppression, as has been devised and adopted by the Articles of Confederation, it will be a subject of regret, that so much blood and treasure have been lavished for no purpose, that so many sufferings have been encountered without a compensation, and that so many sacrifices have been made in vain.
Check and mate.
Mystikal wrote:The economic reason to the southerners appeared simple: take away slavery then cotton and the rest becomes uneconomical to farm and export. Guess what the southern economy utterly depended on?

No, the Southern States had a legitimate reason for leaving. They wanted to. Why?

1. Fear of Federal power overriding and forcing things down states throats.
2. Economical
3. Nearly irreconcilable political differences about how to run the country.
All of which came down to the slavery issue. Rather than take wild-ass guesses about their reasons, let's, oh, let them speak for themselves.
Mississippi: Declaration of the Causes of Secession wrote:A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
The remainder of the document lists specific grievances, most of which are directly related to slavery. None of them have anything to do with state sovereignty except insofar as the issue affects slavery, and in fact, rails against states' rights in one case where it is inconvenient to slavery, to wit:
Same source wrote:It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
Yet according to popular Confederate doctrine, nullification is a right of the states. I suppose it only counts when it's used in furtherance of slavery.

Texas, Georgia, and South Carolina published similar documents, all of which are fully cited and referenced in the first of my previous essays linked in the original post. And even though it is also referenced in the same essay, I can't resist the Cornerstone Address:
Alexander H. Stephens: Cornerstone Address wrote:March 21, 1861
We are in the midst of one of the greatest epochs in our history. The last ninety days will mark one of the most memorable eras in the history of modern civilization.

... we are passing through one of the greatest revolutions in the annals of the world-seven States have, within the last three months, thrown off an old Government and formed a new. This revolution has been signally marked, up to this time, by the fact of its having been accomplished without the loss of a single drop of blood. This new Constitution, or form of government, constitutes the subject to which your attention will be partly invited.

In reference to it, I make this first general remark: It amply secures all our ancient rights, franchises, and privileges. All the great principles of Magna Chartal are retained in it. No citizen is deprived of life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers, under the laws of the land. The great principle of religious liberty, which was the honor and pride of the old Constitution, is still maintained and secured. All the essentials of the old Constitution, which have endeared it to the hearts of the American people, have been preserved and perpetuated.... So, taking the whole new Constitution, I have no hesitancy in giving it as my judgment, that it is decidedly better than the old. [Applause.] Allow me briefly to allude to some of these improvements. The question of building up class interests, or fostering one branch of industry to the prejudice of another, under the exercise of the revenue power, which gave us so much trouble under the old Constitution, is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged in ....

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the Constitution, was the prevailing idea at the time. The Constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly used against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it-when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North who still cling to these errors with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind; from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is, forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics: their conclusions are right if their premises are. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights, with the white man.... I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the Northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery; that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle-a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of man. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds we should succeed, and that he and his associates in their crusade against our institutions would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as well as in physics and mechanics, I admitted, but told him it was he and those acting with him who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.

As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are, and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo-it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not therefore look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first Government ever instituted upon principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many Governments have been founded upon the principles of certain classes; but the classes thus enslaved, were of the same race, and in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws. The negro by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, [note: A reference to Genesis, 9:20-27, which was used as a justification for slavery] is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite-then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is the best, not only for the superior but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances or to question them. For His own purposes He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another in glory."

The great objects of humanity are best attained, when conformed to his laws and degrees, in the formation of Governments as well as in all things else. Our Confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders "is become the chief stone of the corner" in our new edifice.
Mystikal wrote:If the South had been allowed to leave, then not only may have New England have followed(Maybe) but then the North would have been free to pursue it's interest without interference and obstinance from Southern politicians and the South would have been free from having to be so goddamn paranoid. Not only this, but as long as free-trade and free immigration was allowed between the two countries, then if someone had an issue with how one or the other ran their shit, they could go to the other one and live there. This was essentially how the states were intended to function. As semi-autonomous nations-states that each contributed to defense and had trade agreements. Essentially what the EU was. I can't quite word this right. But anyhow, say the North was growing more and more Socialist while the South (technically the CSA couldn't grow Fascist for several reasons) stayed rather conservative and at most, some of the states became Plutocratic/Theocratic/Militaristic/?Libertarian?. Then you could move to whichever one you agreed with most instead of being bounf to a Gov't you hated and were forced to attempt to change. Think about it. The country has been severly divided politically and it has gotten to the point that the gov't can barely work together to achieve much withou single party dominance. With this, both gov'ts would be much divided and both would have an easier time of getting shit done. And if a state or region wanted to do things differently, they could secede or simply attempt to pass state laws. BTW, who says they would have to stay enemies? Why couldn't they have mutual agreements on the lines of the Monroe Doctrine against European agression or a mutual defense and economic pact?

Sorry for the rant. But I think it goes to help explaining some of the non-slavery issues at the time.

Economical and Political differences for one meant a partialy unavoidable conflict was coming.
Why so much of this is wrong is demonstrated above. The conflict was unavoidable only insofar as the South plowed headlong into it and would not be dissuaded. And why the fuck would New England follow the South had they been allowed to go? :wtf:
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Mystikal, I think, is alluding to the brief threat of secession of the New England states during the War of 1812. The naval victories of McDonough and Perry on the Lakes pretty much put an end to that, however.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Rogue 9 »

Patrick Degan wrote:Mystikal, I think, is alluding to the brief threat of secession of the New England states during the War of 1812. The naval victories of McDonough and Perry on the Lakes pretty much put an end to that, however.
I am aware of the incident, but why would they follow the South in secession in the 1860s, which is what he claimed might happen?
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Rogue 9 wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Mystikal, I think, is alluding to the brief threat of secession of the New England states during the War of 1812. The naval victories of McDonough and Perry on the Lakes pretty much put an end to that, however.
I am aware of the incident, but why would they follow the South in secession in the 1860s, which is what he claimed might happen?
Presumably, his "logic" is that, as the New England states once contemplated secession, they'd see the example of a successful secession of the southern states, which would revive the old secessionist sentiments in that region and those states would follow suit. I've seen this sort of argument on lolbertarian/neoconfederate websites putting forth this fantasy of modern-day secession (though the people at The Second Vermont Republic are at least a bit charming).
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by bobalot »

Mystikal wrote:Sorry for the rant. But I think it goes to help explaining some of the non-slavery issues at the time.

Economical and Political differences for one meant a partialy unavoidable conflict was coming.
How are these differences "non-slavery" issues?

The south was afraid that it would suffer economically if they weren't allowed to enslave human beings and treat them like shit.
The south was afraid that the Federal government was going to eventually get rid of their "right" to enslave human beings and treat them like shit.

Every issue you stated revolves around slavery. Your whine about the South being afraid of Federal power is pure bullshit. They were quite happy to use Federal government to force their own agenda on the nation. When the tables turned on them, they left in a huff like a bunch of pussy shits.

By the way, please explain how the North was becoming more "socialist".
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Simon_Jester »

montypython wrote:
I wrote:Sometimes I think that if life were fair, he'd be regarded as about one step below Benedict Arnold...
To be honest, Benedict Arnold was more unfairly calumniated and less of a douchebag than Calhoun, who was far more of a hypocritical bastard/scumbag especially politically.
Yes. That's my point. Benedict Arnold is seen as very low. Calhoun should be lower.
Mystikal wrote:Now, you might want to point out how every concession that could be made, was. But the truth of the matter is that the South had every right to secede if they felt like it. The Union was meant to be consensual and leavable if wished.
This is an extremely questionable claim, in my opinion. I think it needs proving in its own right rather than being thrown out there as a self-evident truth.

The main problem I have with this idea is that the Constitution contains provisions binding on the states, and becomes an entirely meaningless document if the Tenth Amendment is construed to give the states the "right to ignore everything else in here." Which is what most secession arguments I've seen boil down to: The states have the right to ignore election results, legislation, restrictions on their military and diplomatic leverage, and so on, simply because they no longer choose to pay attention to those things.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but... very few contracts contain a provision that allows either party to ignore the contract at will without being in breach in a punishable way.
The economic reason to the southerners appeared simple: take away slavery then cotton and the rest becomes uneconomical to farm and export. Guess what the southern economy utterly depended on?
In and of itself, this is no more grounds to fight a war than the "threat" that your buggy whip industry will be made obsolete.
3. Nearly irreconcilable political differences about how to run the country. If the South had been allowed to leave, then not only may have New England have followed(Maybe) but then the North would have been free to pursue it's interest without interference and obstinance from Southern politicians and the South would have been free from having to be so goddamn paranoid.
I submit that the same paranoia politics would have applied, all aimed at the new CSA's unfriendly, larger, technologically superior neighbor to the north.

The best outcome I could see would be for the Southern economy to predictably collapse as cotton sucked the remaining fertility out of the soil of the areas opened up for settlement in the 1820s and later, until the Confederate states got tired of being the only white-ruled Third World country on Earth and started appealing to rejoin the United States.
But anyhow, say the North was growing more and more Socialist while the South (technically the CSA couldn't grow Fascist for several reasons) stayed rather conservative and at most, some of the states became Plutocratic/Theocratic/Militaristic/?Libertarian?.
I'm not sure I'd say the North was growing socialist, because during the Civil War era socialism as we know it was in its infancy as a political movement. The North was becoming capitalist, not socialist. The South was dominated by a landed aristocracy whose income came from cash crops; a Marxist would call this a "feudal" economy and I'm inclined to agree with them just this once.

The problem for the South was that capitalism proved fairly quickly that slavery was a shitty economic model, on top of being a vile political system. Because while it worked fine for cotton plantations, it didn't work for much of anything else.

Moreover, I would argue that it is a hideous monstrosity to call the South in any sense "libertarian" when one third of the population would have been slaves for the foreseeable future.
Then you could move to whichever one you agreed with most instead of being bounf to a Gov't you hated and were forced to attempt to change. Think about it. The country has been severly divided politically and it has gotten to the point that the gov't can barely work together to achieve much withou single party dominance. With this, both gov'ts would be much divided and both would have an easier time of getting shit done.
By now, the CSA would have either long since rejoined the Union or long since collapsed irreversibly into a corrupt apartheid-riddled Third World hellhole like all the other cash-crop states in the world, so it's kind of a moot point.
And if a state or region wanted to do things differently, they could secede or simply attempt to pass state laws. BTW, who says they would have to stay enemies? Why couldn't they have mutual agreements on the lines of the Monroe Doctrine against European agression or a mutual defense and economic pact?
Because the CSA was founded on the principle of hostility to the North? Because the US would, not without reason, regard the CSA as a pack of bandits who tore a new country out of the US's bleeding flank because they weren't willing to take election results for an answer?

Because the CSA would soon collapse as a military power in the modern era, and would be useless as a partner for economic relations or mutual defense?
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

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Simon_Jester, Bobalot, quit dogpiling Mystikal. Give him a chance to answer.

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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Apologies. I was hoping to raise points separate from what Rogue 9 and Bobalot had raised before me*, but I see how this came across as dogpiling. I will say no more until he has had a chance to respond, and will probably say no more until he has responded to me, specifically.

(At first I was going to summarize my main points in more compact form, but that's mutually exclusive with "saying no more," so I won't).
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

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Hmm, apparently I have stepped into a board(Or encountered members) who accept nothing more and nothing less than the worst and most hateful portrayals of the Old South. Not that I don't undertand it, but I get the itching feeling that regardless how much I attempt to bring in the fact that Slavery as-it-was was on borrowed time anyways as cotton wouldn't remain supreme for too much longer and the poor whites wouldn't have appreciated several things that slavery would have led to. Crazy thing is is if the Old Gentry had been smart or had a liight bulb then they could have been earlir robber-barons and been responsible for inudstializing the South. Railroads and other things were already starting to make there way in and it is quite likely that atleast a few of the wealthier bastards would have smelled the opportunity.

This is where slavery would have likely hit a snag. These old gentry folks would have been more than happy to continue using slavery to cut-down on cost. But it wouldn't be long at all before poor whites bitched about being robbed out of job opportunites and such. Yaddayaddayadda, slavery gets a backseat or abolished in favor of placating poor whites who seek employment. Economic boom, this and that, eventually slavery would have been swept away and/or the nation of Liberia geting a population boost. Regardless of which Southern thought it was moral, most of the plebes would have thought it just as moral for blacks to simply be second class citizens with less but still available rights. Racial tensions would not have flared up nearly as bad and the KKK is likely to have been butterflied away.

This is where it would get interesting. Because the Blacks are neither thrust into equality, which they were unready for anyways due to socio-economical constraints which led to a serfdom* of a certain kind, nor lynched and persecuted anywhere near to the extent that they were. Of course there would have been a few hangings here and there but no worse or better than a Dhimmi in the Ottoman Empire of the same time. Racial conflicts would have been less inflamed and thus while I recognise that full-equality would have to wait until post-1950 atleast, the relative hatred of the 60's and today would have simmered away until an understanding and eventual co-existence was reached. Yes, this is a bit optimistic. It is largely a reaction to the sheer amount of timelines and such out there that make any CSA turn into a nazi-expy or have the racism flitter away magically. Neither would have happened.

Anywho,- woah....I have never put so much thought and typing into one post. I'm starting to feel like I'm taking the internet too seriously. Than again I'm used to having said conversation IRL and so they are at a different speed enitrely. PM me If you have disagreements.

As to the OP. Sorry I led to a derailment. I was trying to explain the factors that made the Civil War inevitable for either side. Slavery was an issue but not the only one. Period. BTW, the South wasn't alone in the racism. Even in the Civil rights era it wasn't. Also, who started it? Technicaly, I think the CSA fired the first shots. Again, PM me on this.







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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

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No PM. Answer in this venue.

I hate cowardly drive-by-posts.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Mystikal »

Didn't want to continue percieved derailment.

...

I mostly concede a lot of the arguements on the basis that I both don't have the resources to refute all the claims to satisfaction but also the fact that finding would put my computer in more harms way. It currently keeps restarting at random due to ads. And it has gotten worse just now. Whenever I try to bring up my windows security alert thing, the thing with the little red shield with an x on it, it restarts my computer too. That and I don't have money to pay for it to be fixed so yeah..

I'm bowing out of this debate.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Elfdart »

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:Another fan of "the War of Southern Aggression" here. From now on, that's what I'm going to call the American Civil War. Hopefully it'll catch on.
Too many syllables. I'd go with "The War The South LOST".

As far as Calhoun is concerned, although he is one of the most vile Americans of all time, he wasn't the one who actually committed treason (as opposed to talking about it) by seizing federal arsenals and firing on Sumter. There was a whole popular political movement behind the war.

The same goes for Jefferson Davis. Yes, he was a traitor and yes, it would be fitting if he was arrested trying to sneak out of Virginia dressed in women's clothing, but he was the sharp end of a mass movement.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Mystikal wrote:Didn't want to continue percieved derailment.

...

I mostly concede a lot of the arguements on the basis that I both don't have the resources to refute all the claims to satisfaction but also the fact that finding would put my computer in more harms way. It currently keeps restarting at random due to ads. And it has gotten worse just now. Whenever I try to bring up my windows security alert thing, the thing with the little red shield with an x on it, it restarts my computer too. That and I don't have money to pay for it to be fixed so yeah..

I'm bowing out of this debate.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Mystikal »

Oh I know the problem, its just that I can't afford to pay for the service to actually have the shit wiped off my computer. There is also the troubling fact of a few files under something labled 1234 that I can view a thumbnail of but can't delete due to lack of Admin Access.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Mystikal wrote:Oh I know the problem, its just that I can't afford to pay for the service to actually have the shit wiped off my computer. There is also the troubling fact of a few files under something labled 1234 that I can view a thumbnail of but can't delete due to lack of Admin Access.

You realize that you can backup your necessary files (documents etc) to an external hard drive or a flash drive, then format your HD and reinstall windows on your own right?

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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas, I feel that Mystikal's second post addressed some of my points enough that I'd like to reply to it. Would this be continued dogpiling, or can I try to explain?
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

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Simon_Jester wrote:Thanas, I feel that Mystikal's second post addressed some of my points enough that I'd like to reply to it. Would this be continued dogpiling, or can I try to explain?
He already condeded.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Oops. Sorry. You're right.

Okay, never mind then.

Elfdart, I'm not sure "mass movement" is the right word to describe the pro-slavery pro-secession faction in the South. Not when the main proponents owned their own plantations.
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Re: The War of Southern Aggression: Who Started the Civil War?

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Simon_Jester wrote:Elfdart, I'm not sure "mass movement" is the right word to describe the pro-slavery pro-secession faction in the South. Not when the main proponents owned their own plantations.
I was referring to the popular sentiment among citizens who had a say in the matter. It might have been the plantation owners who ginned up war fever, but the Confederate Army was made up of more than just Cavalier-wannabes. Not everyone was a colonel. The only major Southern political figure I can think of who was against secession was Sam Houston, and he was almost tarred and feathered for it because most Texans (like most white Southerners) was in favor of rebellion.
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