StarDestroyer.Net BBS

As the title states, after the initial Soviet counter-attack that enveloped the city, Hitler ordered the army to hold fast while a relief column was formed up under Manstein.

Was it actually possible for the Germans to have broke out from Stalingrad?

If so, would a breakout actually adversely affect German operations as Soviet forces historically bogged down in the siege become available to hammer other weakened areas of the German lines?

Probably not. Some troops could have gotten out, but certainly not the whole army. The problem is most of the horses of the German units fighting in Stalingrad had deliberately withdrawal to the west for better grazing conditions and to reduce the logistical burden of the fighting. The few motorized units around also had a lot of organic transport either broken down from heavy use, or sprawled out along the roads back to the Don. On top of this the Germans had hoards of wounded who can’t walk and will slow down everything.

The real life plan for a breakout called for abandoning absolutely everything except ammo and hoping for the best. This just might have worked for some divisions had the order been given to break out almost as soon as the encirclement was completed. Or ideally, even earlier then that. But even without Hitler in the equation, it’s questionable that German commanders would have ordered the abandonment of Stalingrad so quickly. After all German troops had been encircled before on the eastern front and saved, several times, just never on such a scale.

With most equipment and heavy weapons abandon out of hand the Germans could not have broken through any significant blocking force once the Russians settled down into the siege. By the time the Germans launched an armored attack to break open an escape path from the outside it was already too late. The Germans had already been weakened by lack of supplies and had vastly more wounded to bring with them. Movement just wasn’t possible, and trying to pull in units manning the perimeter to make the effort was likely to quickly collapse the entire pocket. The best hope probably would have been some tens of thousands of Germans passing through Russian lines individually and in small groups in the confusion.

Its hard to tell what the surplus Soviet forces would do if the German pocket goes away earlier then historical. The Germans did have major Panzer units around to blunt further offensives, which is why in real life the whole Army Group South wasn't cut off, and the Russians have a short logistics leash for each attack they made.

PainRack wrote:As the title states, after the initial Soviet counter-attack that enveloped the city, Hitler ordered the army to hold fast while a relief column was formed up under Manstein. Was it actually possible for the Germans to have broke out from Stalingrad? If so, would a breakout actually adversely affect German operations as Soviet forces historically bogged down in the siege become available to hammer other weakened areas of the German lines?

Probably not. What disturbed the Germans were the memories of the previous winter. There, attempts to break out of encirclements had been disasters; the break-out attempts degenerated into a rout with Soviet troops mixed in with the routed German armies and that was a major contributor to the German collapse. On the other hand, where the German troops had stayed put and waited for relief, they'd held firm and the situation had stabilized around them.

So, what the Germans feared was that the break-out would degenerate into a rout with a mass of running Germans heading west and the Soviets mixed in with them. The whole front would then be destabilized and the collapse would lead to the Russians getting to the Black Sea and turning a cut-off Army into a cut-off Army Group. Based on their experience the previous winter that was all too likely and staying put while waiting to be relieved was the better bet. Or so the German logic went.

There was another possibility the relief column may have got through to Stalingrad - and seen the doors slam shut behind it.

So, viewed from the German perspective, trying to break out was a bad idea. If nothing else, Sixth Army was tying down enough Soviet forces to prevent them from trying to take out Army Group South (and idea which was uppermost on Soviet minds as well). As usual, I'd refer you to Ericsson's "Road to Stalingrad" and "Road To Moscow" for a look at how both sides were thinking about this.

How would you rate Beevor's "Stalingrad" for covering this episode?

xt828 wrote:How would you rate Beevor's "Stalingrad" for covering this episode?

I like Beevor's work; he's got a soldier's eye for what the battles he describes are like. I think Ericsson is better for why things were done but Beevor is very good for how it was done. His book on Berlin is very good as well.

Hunkering down was the right call. Attempting to shift would have just gotten 6th army wiped out earlier; possibly in time for the Soviets to prepare and then launch another offensive. It also bought time for von Kliest's army in the Caucaus to make their escape. Given their ealier ability to support hedgehogs from the air it also had historical precident for the Germans.

aieeegrunt wrote:Hunkering down was the right call. Attempting to shift would have just gotten 6th army wiped out earlier; possibly in time for the Soviets to prepare and then launch another offensive. It also bought time for von Kliest's army in the Caucaus to make their escape. Given their ealier ability to support hedgehogs from the air it also had historical precident for the Germans.

Yeah, but the Germans until Stalingrad never dealt with having to supply from the air an entire cut-off Army, particularly the Sixth Army which was bigger than your average German Army. In previous cases in Russia the Luftwaffe only supplied surrounded forces Corps-size or even smaller. Add to this Russian interdiction attempts and only a trickle of supplies reached von Paulus.

Force Lord wrote:von Paulus.

Why is there this extreme desire to ennoble any German General?

A mistake? One of my sources does call him that.

EDIT: I would denoblify him if you want, but I can no longer edit that post.

Yes. He was never ennobled and was of middle class origin.