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Skimmer has alluded to this many times in the past; and I found a description of it in Horrido! and again in JG-26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe:

It was used for the purpose of awarding decorations and only on the Western Front. It went as:

Abschuss (Destroyed)

Single-engined plane destroyed: 1 point
Twin-engined plane destroyed: 2 points
Three-engined plane destroyed: 3 points
Four-engined plane destroyed: 3 points

Herausschuss (Separation)

Twin-engined plane damaged: 1 point
Three- or four-engined plane damaged: 2 points

Endgueltige (Final Destruction)

Final destruction of a damaged twin-engined plane: 0.5 point
Final destruction of a damaged four-engined plane: 1 point

You could only get points for damaging a bomber IF you could separate it from the bomber box -- this was called Herausschuss.

In early 1943, or so this was the point list apparently:

Iron Cross, 2nd Class: 1
Iron Cross, 1st Class: 3
Honor Cup: 10
German Cross: 20
Knight's Cross: 40

You could theoretically get the Knights Cross by:

Shooting down 21 single engined fighters (21 pts), 4 twin-engined fighters/attackers (8 pts), 3 four-engined bombers (9 pts) and damaging a B-17/B-24 enough that it had to separate from the bomber stream (2 pts).

It kind of makes me wonder what the points for a Zehn Motoren would be.

Was there any mention what their thinking behind the point scale was?

To try and make the system of awarding medals (a status symbol in themselves) less subjective and more based upon empirical achievements is my guess.

Remember that the Nazis were big on destroying the old/existing class-based order within germany -- there's a reason their full name was the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party) aka NSDAP.

It seems a bit strange in that while it's obviously weighted to the day-fighter force with the whole 'separation' aspect (unless you could get that for knocking a bomber out of the stream...but that would seem to be way more subjective and not especially fruitful given that unlike the combat box, the stream was not in itself a defensive formation) you'd think that by early 1944 the nightfighter pilots would be loaded with awards comparative to their single-seat brethren. Bomber Command had over 100% loss rate over the course of the Berlin campaign and while any sort of wartime flying at night is dangerous, with no real fighter opposition and with your targets comparatively underarmed the odds would seem to be heavily weighted in favour of the NGJ.

What three-engined planes would they have been up against? AFAIK the only state to use them in combat was Italy, and I wasn't aware that the Co-Belligerent Air Force had them in any kind of numbers - weren't they mainly flying Allied types?

The Soviets had some three engine transport planes in service during the war, and Fokker ones could be found around the world. In addition almost every allied power had civilian and quite a few had military Ju52 transports. It was one of the most prolific aircraft ever, but overshadowed in many cases by the later C-47 spam.

thejester wrote:It seems a bit strange in that while it's obviously weighted to the day-fighter force with the whole 'separation' aspect (unless you could get that for knocking a bomber out of the stream...but that would seem to be way more subjective and not especially fruitful given that unlike the combat box, the stream was not in itself a defensive formation) you'd think that by early 1944 the nightfighter pilots would be loaded with awards comparative to their single-seat brethren. Bomber Command had over 100% loss rate over the course of the Berlin campaign and while any sort of wartime flying at night is dangerous, with no real fighter opposition and with your targets comparatively underarmed the odds would seem to be heavily weighted in favour of the NGJ.

The problem is that in order to be awarded a point, you usually needed a witness to that feat. This is a bit problematic in Night-fighting, not to mention that some of them also hunted alone. If you can't produce some evidence, you will not get many points.

There were quite a few three-engined transport, you're right - I totally forgot about them.

Thanas, weren't many/most of the German night fighters two or more seats? Or did the witness need to be in another plane?

xt828 wrote:There were quite a few three-engined transport, you're right - I totally forgot about them.

Thanas, weren't many/most of the German night fighters two or more seats? Or did the witness need to be in another plane?

Iirc it had to be another plane.

Thanas wrote:

thejester wrote:It seems a bit strange in that while it's obviously weighted to the day-fighter force with the whole 'separation' aspect (unless you could get that for knocking a bomber out of the stream...but that would seem to be way more subjective and not especially fruitful given that unlike the combat box, the stream was not in itself a defensive formation) you'd think that by early 1944 the nightfighter pilots would be loaded with awards comparative to their single-seat brethren. Bomber Command had over 100% loss rate over the course of the Berlin campaign and while any sort of wartime flying at night is dangerous, with no real fighter opposition and with your targets comparatively underarmed the odds would seem to be heavily weighted in favour of the NGJ.

The problem is that in order to be awarded a point, you usually needed a witness to that feat. This is a bit problematic in Night-fighting, not to mention that some of them also hunted alone. If you can't produce some evidence, you will not get many points.

Not necessarily. On a pitch black night a burning four-engined aircraft was pretty noticeable; not unusual for other bomber crews to see them from a long distance away. NJG crews logged the rough position of the kill, so you'd think for confirmation you'd have the potential of witnesses (be a rare nightfighter pilot who was totally out of visual contact to that extent), the actual wreckage, and potentially gun camera footage (speculating on that, tho). That said the potential to overclaim was still there; from researching that piece I posted about 460 Sqn getting shot up over Denmark, I'm pretty sure NJG 3 overclaimed by 2 that night alone.

Either way a look at this list of Luftwaffe nachtjager aces would seem to confirm my initial impression - Schnaufer was credited with 121 kills from 164 sorties according to that page, which is an insanely high strike rate in itself but would give him a massive points total given that nearly all of them were heavies. Highest 'day fighter' total for four-engine bombers was less than 40.

thejester wrote: Either way a look at this list of Luftwaffe nachtjager aces would seem to confirm my initial impression - Schnaufer was credited with 121 kills from 164 sorties according to that page, which is an insanely high strike rate in itself but would give him a massive points total given that nearly all of them were heavies. Highest 'day fighter' total for four-engine bombers was less than 40.

Then again, despite all the measures to confirm kills, day fighter pilots did overclaim as well. The night fighters had the advantage of unescorted targets and little risk of effective defensive fire. Collisions were a very big danger, but I imagine that would be something where talent and experience would be of considerable help, whereas no amount of piloting skills can keep the escorts away or the defensive guns from shooting at you.

thejester wrote:Not necessarily. On a pitch black night a burning four-engined aircraft was pretty noticeable; not unusual for other bomber crews to see them from a long distance away. NJG crews logged the rough position of the kill, so you'd think for confirmation you'd have the potential of witnesses (be a rare nightfighter pilot who was totally out of visual contact to that extent), the actual wreckage, and potentially gun camera footage (speculating on that, tho). That said the potential to overclaim was still there; from researching that piece I posted about 460 Sqn getting shot up over Denmark, I'm pretty sure NJG 3 overclaimed by 2 that night alone.

However, keep in mind that mistakes with regard to positioning were pretty common during the war and if the aircraft does not go down immediately but travels for a while, it is pretty easy to miss where it went down.

Besides, at least in the early war, I think Nighfighters also hunted over the North Sea, where it is pretty hard to get confirmation of the wreckage.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:

thejester wrote: Either way a look at this list of Luftwaffe nachtjager aces would seem to confirm my initial impression - Schnaufer was credited with 121 kills from 164 sorties according to that page, which is an insanely high strike rate in itself but would give him a massive points total given that nearly all of them were heavies. Highest 'day fighter' total for four-engine bombers was less than 40.

Then again, despite all the measures to confirm kills, day fighter pilots did overclaim as well. The night fighters had the advantage of unescorted targets and little risk of effective defensive fire. Collisions were a very big danger, but I imagine that would be something where talent and experience would be of considerable help, whereas no amount of piloting skills can keep the escorts away or the defensive guns from shooting at you.

I got the impression from reading pilots logs and crew experiences that if the nightfighter didn't kill or cripple the heavy in the first attack, the heavy (certainly for a Lancaster...maybe not so much for a Halifax or Stirling) would be desperately unlucky to be shot down. A corkscrewing Lancaster was not an easy target and you even get the impression - certainly later in the war - that nightfighter pilots got a bit gunshy; they'd back off and look for an easier target once a bomber crew were wise to them.

Thanas wrote:However, keep in mind that mistakes with regard to positioning were pretty common during the war and if the aircraft does not go down immediately but travels for a while, it is pretty easy to miss where it went down.

Besides, at least in the early war, I think Nighfighters also hunted over the North Sea, where it is pretty hard to get confirmation of the wreckage.

It's definitely not a perfect system, but I think you could poke just as many holes in it during the day as you could at night (for example: all aircrew as far as I can tell were instructed not to follow their victims down, for obvious reasons. Unless your victim blows up, you're already at low level or he bails out, how likely is it going to be that you actually see him hit the ground?). And yeah, there's plenty of bombers who would have gone down into the sea or the wreckage wouldn't have been found. But those arguments can be made across the board. Certainly the Luftwaffe didn't have any problem confirming enough kills for all those aces.

Thanas wrote:This is a bit problematic in Night-fighting, not to mention that some of them also hunted alone. If you can't produce some evidence, you will not get many points.

I believe that the SOP for teh NJGs was this:

The next morning once everyone's landed back home they start listing all the crashes nearby; and they then drive out to each crash site and investigate. A determination is then made whether it was the flak arm or the NJGs that brought down the plane.

Once it's determined that a NJG brought down the plane; it's a simple matter of asking for the list of people who were in the air that night and claimed victories -- along with their rough flight logs showing their positions.

Did German planes carry any kind of gun camera system ? That could have helped verify day time kills at least.

The Germans had gun cameras but they didn’t universally use them like the western allies did in the second half of the war. Probably not enough equipment to do so.

Sarevok wrote:Did German planes carry any kind of gun camera system ? That could have helped verify day time kills at least.

Yes -- so did the USAAF, RAF, etc. Gun Camera footage only counted for a kill however in the USAAF under the following conditions:

1.) The Pilot is clearly shown to be leaving his plane (baling out)

and/or

2.) A significant major portion of the aircraft must break off -- like an entire wing coming off that clearly render the plane unflyable.

I'm pretty sure that a confirmed Mosquito kill was considered 5 points. That plane was pretty high on their hit list.

Isolder74 wrote:I'm pretty sure that a confirmed Mosquito kill was considered 5 points. That plane was pretty high on their hit list.

Didn't help much, though, since the He 219 A-6 & A-7 were the only German night fighter which could under favorable conditions catch the Mosquito and favorable conditions were not available that often. The A-6 variant was also produced in very small numbers only. In fact the entire model was produced in small numbers, so it hardly mattered in the larger scheme of things.