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This is an old article from 2008 but I am not sure many here are aware of how refined ancient mathematics and technology really were.

Discovering How Greeks Computed in 100 B.C.

After a closer examination of a surviving marvel of ancient Greek technology known as the Antikythera Mechanism, scientists have found that the device not only predicted solar eclipses but also organized the calendar in the four-year cycles of the Olympiad, forerunner of the modern Olympic Games.

The new findings, reported Wednesday in the journal Nature, also suggested that the mechanism’s concept originated in the colonies of Corinth, possibly Syracuse, on Sicily. The scientists said this implied a likely connection with Archimedes.

Archimedes, who lived in Syracuse and died in 212 B.C., invented a planetarium calculating motions of the Moon and the known planets and wrote a lost manuscript on astronomical mechanisms. Some evidence had previously linked the complex device of gears and dials to the island of Rhodes and the astronomer Hipparchos, who had made a study of irregularities in the Moon’s orbital course.

The Antikythera Mechanism, sometimes called the first analog computer, was recovered more than a century ago in the wreckage of a ship that sank off the tiny island of Antikythera, north of Crete. Earlier research showed that the device was probably built between 140 and 100 B.C.

Only now, applying high-resolution imaging systems and three-dimensional X-ray tomography, have experts been able to decipher inscriptions and reconstruct functions of the bronze gears on the mechanism. The latest research has revealed details of dials on the instrument’s back side, including the names of all 12 months of an ancient calendar.

In the journal report, the team led by the mathematician and filmmaker Tony Freeth of the Antikythera Mechanism Research Project, in Cardiff, Wales, said the month names “are unexpectedly of Corinthian origin,” which suggested “a heritage going back to Archimedes.”

No month names on what is called the Metonic calendar were previously known, the researchers noted. Such a calendar, as well as other knowledge displayed on the mechanism, illustrated the influence of Babylonian astronomy on the Greeks. The calendar was used by Babylonians from at least the early fifth century B.C.

Dr. Freeth, who is also associated with Images First Ltd., in London, explained in an e-mail message that the Metonic calendar was designed to reconcile the lengths of the lunar month with the solar year. Twelve lunar months are about 11 days short of a year, but 235 lunar months fit well into 19 years.

“From this it is possible to construct an artificial mathematical calendar that keeps in synchronization with both the sun and the moon,” Dr. Freeth said.

The mechanism’s connection with the Corinthians was unexpected, the researchers said, because other cargo in the shipwreck appeared to be from the eastern Mediterranean, places like Kos, Rhodes and Pergamon. The months inscribed on the instrument, they wrote, are “practically a complete match” with those on calendars from Illyria and Epirus in northwestern Greece and with the island of Corfu. Seven months suggest a possible link with Syracuse.

Inscriptions also showed that one of the instrument’s dials was used to record the timing of the pan-Hellenic games, a four-year cycle that was “a common framework for chronology” by the Greeks, the researchers said.

“The mechanism still contains many mysteries,” Dr. Freeth said. Among the larger questions, scientists and historians said the place of the mechanism in the development of Greek technology remained poorly understood. Several references to similar instruments appear in classical literature, including Cicero’s description of one made by Archimedes. But this one, hauled out of the sea in 1901, is the sole surviving example.

Here is a picture of a reconstruction Link and the surprisingly good wiki article has a lot further information here.

There was an excellent BBC4 program on this about two months back if you can find it online somewhere.

Mike Edmunds came to my uni to give us a lecture on the mechanism, it's absolutely awesome.

It truly is one of the marvels of the ancient world. What makes it even more amazing is the amount of intricate gears and mechanisms that survived the centuries of erosion underwater.
And I can second that the documentary was excellent

Most impressive is probably the apparently eccentric old man who build a reproduction in his workshop. From the documentary the guy looks like he would be an awesome person to talk to over a pint. The way he casually made a brand new gear with a set, unusual number of teeth right in front of the camera with nothing but hand tools was a marvel.

First - the title is wrong. A computer, by definition, is a device that can receive task and input, then process it and give according output. The Mechanism is no more a computer than Heron's aeolipile is a car.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Most impressive is probably the apparently eccentric old man who build a reproduction in his workshop. From the documentary the guy looks like he would be an awesome person to talk to over a pint. The way he casually made a brand new gear with a set, unusual number of teeth right in front of the camera with nothing but hand tools was a marvel.

But that's it. The Mechanism was most likely also built by eccentric metalworking master. That's why it, despite being hundreds, or in some cases thousands of years ahead of its time...

...it's also one of the biggest wasted opportunities in the history of humanity. Why? Because the creator's talent was used up on device with limited usefulness. Had the guy didn't kept the secrets or making it to himself, other, more creative people could have done so much more with it.

For one, if you have technology to make AM, you can easily make a sextant (in fact, similar device was proposed by some Greeks, they just lacked the means to create it) and more importantly, a marine clock. A device similar to what Royal Navy was paying a fortune in competition not that long ago could have been fully working during Greek/Roman times, making Mediterranean sea true highway of Ancient times (instead on 'straight ahead till we maybe hit land' it was). Perhaps age of discovery would have happened fifteen hundred years ahead of schedule and America would today be known as Colonia Constantina or something similar. Alas, it was not to be.

Yes, it's a wasted opportunity, but that does not in any way detract from the coolness of the device.

Irbis wrote:...it's also one of the biggest wasted opportunities in the history of humanity. Why? Because the creator's talent was used up on device with limited usefulness. Had the guy didn't kept the secrets or making it to himself, other, more creative people could have done so much more with it.

For one, if you have technology to make AM, you can easily make a sextant (in fact, similar device was proposed by some Greeks, they just lacked the means to create it) and more importantly, a marine clock. A device similar to what Royal Navy was paying a fortune in competition not that long ago could have been fully working during Greek/Roman times, making Mediterranean sea true highway of Ancient times (instead on 'straight ahead till we maybe hit land' it was). Perhaps age of discovery would have happened fifteen hundred years ahead of schedule and America would today be known as Colonia Constantina or something similar. Alas, it was not to be.

All of those assumptions only show a lack of the priorities or necessities of the ancient world. First, you assume there was only one such genius. Why? Literature mentions several. Second, figuring out the calendar was the most important thing to business and politics back then because the calendar dictated when several things would happen, including safe passage rights, a general peace to warfare etc. Without figuring out the calendar there is no trade whatsoever possible.

Third, Romans knew pretty well where they were going on the mediterranean. They had instruments of measuring position etc. There is no reason to assume the age of discovery would have happened sooner because it relied on advances in shipbuilding the Romans never could have hoped to emulate.

Thanas, question- would you say the Romans could not have duplicated, or lacked the incentive to duplicate, those changes in ship design?

Could not have, simply for the reason that it took western Europe over 1000 years in shipbuilding advances before they even came close to building ocean-going ships. And unlike, say, architecture, knowledge of shipbuilding did not regress after the fall of the empire. It might even have increased innovation as the Empire finally had competing naval powers again.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Yes, it's a wasted opportunity, but that does not in any way detract from the coolness of the device.

...which was only the entire point of the second half of my post?

Thanas wrote:All of those assumptions only show a lack of the priorities or necessities of the ancient world.

Yes, it's not like seagoing commerce was essential to Greeks or Romans, no, not at all.

First, you assume there was only one such genius. Why? Literature mentions several.

If there were several, most likely were in student-master relationship, and my point they kept the secrets to the grave and failed to utilize them in widespread way is still valid. Compare to the shipbuilding skills you claim were developed the whole time - why we see handful of examples of AM-like mechanisms, then the technology is lost for millennia?

Hell, it directly contradicts your claim that calendar calculation was in any way critical. Had it been, we would see dozens of Mechanisms in museums, even is much more primitive, not one singular toy.

Second, figuring out the calendar was the most important thing to business and politics back then because the calendar dictated when several things would happen, including safe passage rights, a general peace to warfare etc. Without figuring out the calendar there is no trade whatsoever possible.

These were still secondary, infrequent concerns. Ships lost and delayed were primary, daily concern. AM took care of the first, when it could have solved second. Plus, it's not like pirates or navigational threats cared about a date.

Why you think Royal Navy was willing to pay 15 million Euro (in modern terms) for plans of such unimportant, as you claim, device?

Third, Romans knew pretty well where they were going on the mediterranean. They had instruments of measuring position etc. There is no reason to assume the age of discovery would have happened sooner because it relied on advances in shipbuilding the Romans never could have hoped to emulate.

No, they did not. Their main mode of travel was dead reckoning. They did have some pretty advanced tricks, but true navigation is virtually impossible without knowing accurate time. Without it, you can calculate latitude, but that was easy seeing Mediterranean is pretty narrow anyway. It is very wide, though, making longitude (which they had no way of accurately establishing) critical. Rome lost countless ship-days each year due to detours and favourable courses captains needed to take to remain safe.

Thanas, don't tell me you never saw any ancient Roman map. Care to show any examples that are not inaccurate, grossly distorted, or both, example that could be real navigational aid? I don't demand Mercator level, just something that didn't claim Gibraltar is south-east of Rome, as some did.

As for your claim that Romans had no shipbuilding capability, form follows function. Give them a way to accurately establish location, then you will see Rome building longer and longer-going ships now that there is no risk of losing them on first try. They certainly had capability of building much larger ships than ones that successfully reached new world from Europe, and I am sure someone would try if that wasn't plain suicide with their navigational, not technical skills.

Irbis wrote:Yes, it's not like seagoing commerce was essential to Greeks or Romans, no, not at all.

Your snark and ignorance are not appreciated. Turn them down both. After all, you are capable of civilized discussion, no?

Of course commerce was essential. That doesn't make it feasible to suddenly jump several hundred of years ahead, nor make it possible. No widespread profigilation of that device would have done it (nevermind such spread would be impossible due to the high unit cost of any such device) for the simple fact that we are not discovering cheap space travel because we suddenly all got laptops.

If there were several, most likely were in student-master relationship,

How do you know? Please list the number of experts and show how exactly they were in such a relationship. Books, manuals, manuscripts etc. of antiquity frequently show and describe machines, there is no reason to expect this was any different in this case.

and my point they kept the secrets to the grave and failed to utilize them in widespread way is still valid.

You don't even know how widespread such a device was. It was certainly accepted enough that multiple popular authors wrote about it and one Roman had one built for himself. Certainly the Romans were very adept at date-keeping.

Compare to the shipbuilding skills you claim were developed the whole time - why we see handful of examples of AM-like mechanisms, then the technology is lost for millennia?

What is AM?

As to the rest, lots of technologies got lost all the time, simply because there was not enough demand or resources to go around.

Hell, it directly contradicts your claim that calendar calculation was in any way critical. Had it been, we would see dozens of Mechanisms in museums, even is much more primitive, not one singular toy.

We do know of dozen more primitive calendars, you nitwit. Heck, in Rome we had one GIANT sun clock in the form of a whole obelisk. Nevermind that monumentous display of ignorance which ignores everything we know about Roman and Greek dating and record-keeping, let's try this. "Not a single one of the aquilae remain. Therefore, if the eagle was such a monumentous piece, we would expect to see more". Do you see the stupidity?

These were still secondary, infrequent concerns. Ships lost and delayed were primary, daily concern.

No they were not. Ships delayed was not a concern because people kept more stores back then. Ships delayed yes but it is not like date keeping helps you here.

But once more you display your ignorance by not knowing that calculating time of war and peace was most important. For example, during the Olympic truce it used to be that only then travellers could travel freely to Greece. Before that, they could be killed. Now, do you see why calculating when this period would start would be so very important?

Why you think Royal Navy was willing to pay 15 million Euro (in modern terms) for plans of such unimportant, as you claim, device?

Global Empire =/= mediterranean sea. You should know that.

No, they did not. Their main mode of travel was dead reckoning. They did have some pretty advanced tricks, but true navigation is virtually impossible without knowing accurate time. Without it, you can calculate latitude, but that was easy seeing Mediterranean is pretty narrow anyway. It is very wide, though, making longitude (which they had no way of accurately establishing) critical.

You can however make do very well with astrolabes and celestial navigation. From a 2012 dissertation on the subject:

My research concludes that both coastal and open-sea sailing were matters of routine in the commercial sector, that commercial seafarers did indeed sail at night and employ the stars to deduce navigational information, that winter sailing was a widespread practice, and that crews employed navigational strategies to weather storms, usually successfully.

- Commercial navigation in the Greek and Roman world, D. Davis, 2012, University of Austin.

Rome lost countless ship-days each year due to detours and favourable courses captains needed to take to remain safe.

Show those please. Having just studied ancient shipping routes this should be good.

Thanas, don't tell me you never saw any ancient Roman map. Care to show any examples that are not inaccurate, grossly distorted, or both, example that could be real navigational aid? I don't demand Mercator level, just something that didn't claim Gibraltar is south-east of Rome, as some did.

Those maps should never ever be read on their own but always combined with the periploi, anescopse, wind roses and course winds. Together, the Romans were quite able to navigate deap sea routes - note for example that the route from Portus to Alexandria and vice versa requires a lot of direct crossing of the mediterranean sea.

As for your claim that Romans had no shipbuilding capability, form follows function. Give them a way to accurately establish location, then you will see Rome building longer and longer-going ships now that there is no risk of losing them on first try. They certainly had capability of building much larger ships than ones that successfully reached new world from Europe, and I am sure someone would try if that wasn't plain suicide with their navigational, not technical skills.

Do you know how large Roman ships were? Roman ships already reached sizes not surpassed until the 1600s with her total carrying capacity of the merchant fleet likely not surpassed by a single navy until the clipper fleets of the 19th century (according to some estimates, other say the British already did in the 1600s but whatever the actual figure remains immmaterial to this discussion).

Amphora carriers reach 550 tons and more regularly. Grain fleet merchants might even have surpassed these and I have even seen sizes of 800 -1200 tons or more being cited. A well known shipwreck of a medium - lower large sized ship was over 135 feet long, 450 tons. Obelisk carriers even reached ~1500 tons.

Heck, we even know of well-publicized ships which from their length, beam and draught which could even rival 18th century ships of the line. See this. Even if one dismisses this as exaggeration (which the majority does not but a sizable minority does) even half of those dimensions would make the isis comparable to Galleons and merchantmen. I see no reasons to do so for we know of other ships that surpass the Isis.

Point is, it is not a question of ship size or precise navigation. It is a question of speed, necessity and commercial viability. Columbus had no methods more precise than the Romans yet all new world traders made do. But there was no reason for Rome to go to the Americas nor a reason for them to try, for sea trade with India was already established, the Suez canal equivalent had been dug etc. Nor would the Roman economy have been helped much by allowing ships to travel with navigation. That requires a combination with better sailing techniques and materials - which the Romans did not have and showed no signs of developing in over 600 years - and the commercial necessity for doing so, which was not present until the colonization of the new world.

Thanas wrote:

Irbis wrote:Compare to the shipbuilding skills you claim were developed the whole time - why we see handful of examples of AM-like mechanisms, then the technology is lost for millennia?

What is AM?

I'm going to guess that it is Antikythera Mechanism, which was nice of Irbis to abbreviate it because it saved me a lot of time reading it.

Irbis wrote:For one, if you have technology to make AM, you can easily make a sextant (in fact, similar device was proposed by some Greeks, they just lacked the means to create it) and more importantly, a marine clock.

This does not follow. The technical challenges in creating a clock accurate despite ship movement and temperature changes were immense, even given the well established precision casting, range of alloys (including various spring steels) and clockwork manufacturing (including numerous escapement designs) industries present in the 18th century. As an engineering task it has only superficial similarities to making an orrery or mechanical calculator. Raising clock precision took thousands of cummulative man-years of R&D by numerous innovators, it isn't something one craftsman could have done from the ability to make spur gears and first principles.