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Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-14 01:18am
by Zor
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This is Samual Colt, 19th century American Industrialist and Inventor. Many people know of him as the inventor of the Revolver, the first repeating gun.

They are wrong.

Soon after the invention of Handgonnes people were soon confronted with a question: How do I make a gun which can be fired more than once before I need to reload?

The first solution to this problem was simple: add more barrels.
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This design of Handgonne was popular among the Chinese during the early Ming Dynasty and quickly could get off three shots before it need to be reloaded.

This method would indeed remain common enough in pistols as time went on...
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...but there were complications. The first of which is that even leaving aside all the fancy pants ornamentation is that it it meant there were two (in some cases more) barrels, triggers and the number of mechanical bits for their locks have been doubled simply to get more shots off and the weight of the gun was increased. Eventually people decided to try to address these concerns. One way of doing so was having a mechanism by witch the barrels revolved into place for the lock to fire them, thus allowing you to get away with only one lock.
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Even so this were still weight issues and the costs of forging the barrels. As such some gunsmiths found out that multiple barrels were not nessisary for such a design to work and you could get away with one cylinder and a revolving block to store shots in before firing. This was discovered by both Europeans...
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...and the Japanese.
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In addition to revolvers there were a few weird designs like this...

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This gun had numerous shots loaded into the barrel. The user would fire the topmost round nearest to the muzzle, then move the serpentine back along a rail and do the same for the next round working his way back. Needless to say things could go VERY wrong if the user was incautious in it's operation.
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This is a Kalhoff Repeater. A Danish designed gun with two magazine for powder and musket balls.

Despite this, these guns were remarkably labor intensive to produce and required the most skilled artisans to make their components in the tight tolerances required and to repair them if they broke down. As such (with the exception of double barreled pistols) these guns were prohibitively expensive to make. For armies on the march, it was much better to have six hundred musketeers armed with single shot flintlocks than to have a hundred armed with revolving muskets that can get off six or so shots early on and can't be repaired by a battalion's gunsmith if they are damaged. For the most part these repeaters were expensive toys owned by wealthy noblemen.

So if repeaters and revolvers were around for centuries, why is this Colt fellow such a big deal? Because a few years before him there was a guy named Eli Whitney who invented the milling machine.
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This device made it much easier to form metal shapes to within very tight tolerances. As such it became practical to make large numbers of identical parts to precise specifications. Sam Colt took this machine as well as the new percussion cap design and used it to make a revolver that could be easily mass produced in large quantities.

Zor

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-14 04:29pm
by Sea Skimmer
Nice photo essay. Some of those clustered rifle barrels had EIGHTEEN bores, which is just comical for how long they would have taken to muzzle load in the first place. A job for your servant!

The percussion cap is pretty underrated for what it changed, and started. Without it any revolver would have a huge chance of misfiring, which really undermined any advantage of multiple shots because they'd probably all misfire in the damp. Ergo better to have multiple guns as one might actually work. Percussion firing also reduced the chances of 'flashover' igniting multiple cylinders, though it still happened, and would keep happening until cartridge cases were adapted, starting about a decade after the first Colt revolver went into production. Flashover ignitions didn't always wreck the gun, as the lead balls were moving so slow they couldn't break the steel, but they'd easily jam the weapon and they sure could splatter and take your fingers off.

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-14 07:58pm
by Iroscato
A very interesting read, I had no idea the concept of repeater guns stretched that far back. Thanks Zor.

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-15 02:50am
by madd0ct0r
Agreed. Thankyou Zor, beautiful and instructive.

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-15 05:31am
by LaCroix
Chimaera wrote:A very interesting read, I had no idea the concept of repeater guns stretched that far back. Thanks Zor.
The idea of "it makes boom - now, how can I make it go boom faster" is pretty much the first idea everyone had right after the invention of the boom-stick. :D

Sadly, the common myths of Colt (first revolver!!!) and Browning (First&best automatic!!!) are doing the public a disservice in regards to this knowledge.

Good work, Zor.

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-16 03:17pm
by Zor
Sea Skimmer wrote:Nice photo essay. Some of those clustered rifle barrels had EIGHTEEN bores, which is just comical for how long they would have taken to muzzle load in the first place. A job for your servant!
Even with a servant, lugging that monster around would be a huge pain in the butt.

Zor

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-16 05:14pm
by Sea Skimmer
In fairness to the Browning love, if you could only have one automatic/self loading operating system, as opposed to merely repeating, it'd be gas and Browning did make it work first. In the end only a handful of distinctly different means of operating guns exist anyway though with makes the fawning pointless. Short/Long recoil, Blowback/Delayed Blowback, Gas and external power. The later being first by a wide margin. The first four all had great adventures in being perfected involving large numbers of pieces of shit being produced by European companies in ordered to get solutions not involving the original Maxim gun PATENTS, and then a slew of other patents.

But so you guys will love this, I stumbled upon the first Browning gas operation patent from 1982 a few months ago. Its a freaking lever action rife with the worst piston ever attached to the muzzle. But it seems this gun really worked; I suppose that's not surprising looking at it.
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This explains the infamous COLT POTATO DIGGER! Its a logical evolution of... this... thus the reason for that otherwise insane seeming swinging lever in the action.

Also it appears Germany has finally spent a bit of money on detailed CGI of the ultimate non rotary operation externally powered machine gun, Rheinmetall RMG 7.62, and something I've mused on before. A single firing chamber machine gun with a automatic cluster of self changing barrels. They change when one overheats and take the gun out of action for a moment to do so, not constantly. I have no clue if they've found the money to actually build prototypes or not, but its zero point zero technological reach to implement.

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Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-16 05:19pm
by Sea Skimmer
Zor wrote: Even with a servant, lugging that monster around would be a huge pain in the butt.
Yeah, they were probably just for display, but fully functional. We think the same thing is true of many enormous swords which have survived from the middle ages.

But ah in the search for the image in a book I have somewhere of this monster, I was reminded of the Cochran turret revolver! The best repeating weapon concept ever.

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More then one design existed like this even after the Colt revolver appeared, to get around patents mainly, but somehow none of them saw major production...

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They were also tried with vertical cylinders. Because why not also try that with cylinders aimed back at you.

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-16 09:02pm
by Thanas
Sea Skimmer wrote:Yeah, they were probably just for display, but fully functional. We think the same thing is true of many enormous swords which have survived from the middle ages.
Which ones?

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-17 03:57am
by LaCroix
Thanas wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Yeah, they were probably just for display, but fully functional. We think the same thing is true of many enormous swords which have survived from the middle ages.
Which ones?
The two huge ones right at the entry in the Tower of London /White Tower come to mind, instantly. I inspected them closely - they are fine proportioned, but they are longer than a man. You probalby *could* wield them fine, but it would be quite a challenge, more like using a halberd than a sword. They were labelled as being ceremonial, though.

Some bloke standing next to them

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-17 05:14am
by Zor
Sea Skimmer wrote:
But ah in the search for the image in a book I have somewhere of this monster, I was reminded of the Cochran turret revolver! The best repeating weapon concept ever.

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Interestingly enough, apparently some Japanese gunsmith tried that rough idea before the Meiji Restoration.
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Zor

Re: Precoltian Repeaters

Posted: 2015-04-18 04:40pm
by xthetenth
Sea Skimmer wrote: But so you guys will love this, I stumbled upon the first Browning gas operation patent from 1982 a few months ago. Its a freaking lever action rife with the worst piston ever attached to the muzzle. But it seems this gun really worked; I suppose that's not surprising looking at it.

This explains the infamous COLT POTATO DIGGER! Its a logical evolution of... this... thus the reason for that otherwise insane seeming swinging lever in the action.
Apparently there's a somewhat later development in the Browning Firearms Museum.

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There's that and two other pictures in this article:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015 ... ms-museum/

Just do a search for
Possibly the most significant rifle on display: This is one of Browning’s original gas-operated rifle demonstrators.