Use of the term 'Jap'

[Superman]

Haven't we had the same discussion years ago, with respect to things like sports team mascots? If the ethnic group in question finds it offensive, we should take that into account rather than completely ignoring their feelings and declaring that it isn't offensive to us. Why is it even relevant that a white guy doesn't find it offensive?

I wonder, though, how many Japanese actually find that term to be offensive. My wife says it's not offensive at all, but she doesn't speak for everyone from Japan...

[Edi]

Haven't we had the same discussion years ago, with respect to things like sports team mascots? If the ethnic group in question finds it offensive, we should take that into account rather than completely ignoring their feelings and declaring that it isn't offensive to us. Why is it even relevant that a white guy doesn't find it offensive?

I wonder, though, how many Japanese actually find that term to be offensive. My wife says it's not offensive at all, but she doesn't speak for everyone from Japan...

It may be more offensive to Americans of Japanese descent than native Japanese, because of the history of its use in the US. Say, someone whose family moved into the US before WW2 and had to go through all of the negative shit. They'd have a very different take on it than your wife, I expect.

[Hotfoot]

I grasp that notion fine; see the "limey" example.

Do I think that their sensitivity justifies word clampdowns? No, because I don't think it justifies the same when an equivalent term is applied to me.

I'll tell you what. When you are thrown into a prison camp and horribly maltreated by the dominant locals, and that term is used to demean you, feel free to be offended by it.

You talk a lot about context, well there's the context for you. You're not the target of racists, so it's probably hard for you to understand, but until you experience some, I suggest you just stop flapping your lips and move on.

[Rye]

I've been beaten up for the way I look/dress before.

Not perhaps thrown into a prison camp, but nor has anyone else here.

[Hotfoot]

I've been beaten up for the way I look/dress before.

Not perhaps thrown into a prison camp, but nor has anyone else here.

And tell me, does the term "Brit" have anything to do with the way you look or dress? If not, it's a red herring, full stop. From what I've seen of your pictures, I'm going to guess the answer is "no".

Right now all you're doing is confusing the issue needlessly. There are still people today in the United States who carry on the racist teachings of their fathers and grandfathers. The last several wars we fought prior to the 1980's involved people with Asian ethnicity, and in the 1980's there were very serious concerns about Japanese industry taking over the American economy. The term "Jap" has long been used with negative connotations here in the states, by people who genuinely hate the Japanese and in fact many Asian peoples.

The idea that "Brit", which is a self-referencing term taken by inhabitants of Briton, used to describe anyone of any ethnicity within said nation, with no actual racial connotations whatsoever, perhaps the fading "white person speaking with a pretentious accent", is anywhere near the term "Jap", which specifically refers to people of a specific ethnic background, created by people who were doing measurable harm to them for decades, well, it's just a little silly. The better example would be "Paki", but that doesn't support your argument, because that IS another racial slur.

Remember how you were talking about context, and how that matters? Well, who assigns the name and what relationship they have with the group, that matters. When there's demonstrable harm being done, and a derogatory name is given, that rather matters in the whole mess.

Now, that you've been attacked for the way you dress is not something I want to trivialize, clearly that's an important thing, and the fact of the matter is that it's wrong at the core of it, but it's not really got much to do with the subject at hand, specifically the argument you were making. It DOES matter, however, in that most likely (and correct me if I'm wrong), the people who attacked you were shouting epithets that attacked your gender, orientation, and so on in the process. Can you honestly tell me that, without the violence, those words wouldn't have bothered you at all? That your day would have been the same with or without someone deriding you? If so, then kudos, you're a stronger or more delusional person than most. When I have people screaming at me over who I am, my day is made a little darker, even if just a bit.

[Rye]

And tell me, does the term "Brit" have anything to do with the way you look or dress? If not, it's a red herring, full stop. From what I've seen of your pictures, I'm going to guess the answer is "no".

It isn't a red herring if we're talking about human bigotry and you're determined to claim I know fuck all about it because I've not experienced it. Besides, I was talking about "Limey" rather than brit, because Limey is more offensive, has associations with scurvy, bad teeth, naval sodomy etc.

Now, that you've been attacked for the way you dress is not something I want to trivialize, clearly that's an important thing, and the fact of the matter is that it's wrong at the core of it, but it's not really got much to do with the subject at hand, specifically the argument you were making. It DOES matter, however, in that most likely (and correct me if I'm wrong), the people who attacked you were shouting epithets that attacked your gender, orientation, and so on in the process. Can you honestly tell me that, without the violence, those words wouldn't have bothered you at all? That your day would have been the same with or without someone deriding you? If so, then kudos, you're a stronger or more delusional person than most. When I have people screaming at me over who I am, my day is made a little darker, even if just a bit.

Sure, the years of frequent verbal abuse from people I didn't even know because I liked certain bands sucked, let alone anything else. Do I go all nuts and demand people apologise when they go for a "fag break"? No. Do I care if people refer to british things as "limey" things? No. Does it matter if someone talks about the goths sacking Rome, do I feel that I am being unjustly maligned because some chavs used to think "goth" was an insult? Of course not. Why? Because of the god-damned context and meaning.

[Hotfoot]

It isn't a red herring if we're talking about human bigotry and you're determined to claim I know fuck all about it because I've not experienced it. Besides, I was talking about "Limey" rather than brit, because Limey is more offensive, has associations with scurvy, bad teeth, naval sodomy etc.

It is a red herring if it has fuck all to do with the argument you're making. Being beaten up for the CLOTHES YOU WEAR is not nearly the same as being beaten up for the COLOR OF YOUR SKIN. You can change your clothes, guess what you can't change?

Sure, the years of frequent verbal abuse from people I didn't even know because I liked certain bands sucked, let alone anything else. Do I go all nuts and demand people apologise when they go for a "fag break"? No. Do I care if people refer to british things as "limey" things? No. Does it matter if someone talks about the goths sacking Rome, do I feel that I am being unjustly maligned because some chavs used to think "goth" was an insult? Of course not. Why? Because of the god-damned context and meaning.

Seriously? Are you honestly comparing being derided for liking bands to being derided for the color of your skin? Shore up this argument fast man, you're sinking in it.

[Rye]

It isn't a red herring if we're talking about human bigotry and you're determined to claim I know fuck all about it because I've not experienced it. Besides, I was talking about "Limey" rather than brit, because Limey is more offensive, has associations with scurvy, bad teeth, naval sodomy etc.

It is a red herring if it has fuck all to do with the argument you're making. Being beaten up for the CLOTHES YOU WEAR is not nearly the same as being beaten up for the COLOR OF YOUR SKIN. You can change your clothes, guess what you can't change?

Sure, the years of frequent verbal abuse from people I didn't even know because I liked certain bands sucked, let alone anything else. Do I go all nuts and demand people apologise when they go for a "fag break"? No. Do I care if people refer to british things as "limey" things? No. Does it matter if someone talks about the goths sacking Rome, do I feel that I am being unjustly maligned because some chavs used to think "goth" was an insult? Of course not. Why? Because of the god-damned context and meaning.

Seriously? Are you honestly comparing being derided for liking bands to being derided for the color of your skin? Shore up this argument fast man, you're sinking in it.

Perhaps you should tell me a boot doesn't kick as hard when you're singled out for wearing black rather than being black. Yes, I'm comparing the outcomes and the base hatred, ignorance and groupthink. They're not substantially different, though one is much more socially acceptable.

[Hotfoot]

The boot may kick as hard. but the threat of the boot is nowhere near as omnipresent. By a simple change of clothes. you can avoid attention. You cannot possibly think the same is true for an ethnic minority. That omnipresent threat looms over others constantly. and hate terms are sharp reminders of that. That discrimination persists in some areas of the US today against asians of various descents should be evidence enough that the term is nowhere near as outdated as you persist in demanding.

[Rye]

The boot may kick as hard. but the threat of the boot is nowhere near as omnipresent. By a simple change of clothes. you can avoid attention. You cannot possibly think the same is true for an ethnic minority.

The same is definitely true of antisemitism. Just don't talk in hebrew or wear yarmulkes or wear that hasidic stuff.

That omnipresent threat looms over others constantly. and hate terms are sharp reminders of that. That discrimination persists in some areas of the US today against asians of various descents should be evidence enough that the term is nowhere near as outdated as you persist in demanding.

That is hardly what I'm saying. I'm saying that unless the context is actually racist, nobody should give a shit.

[Hotfoot]

The same is definitely true of antisemitism. Just don't talk in hebrew or wear yarmulkes or wear that hasidic stuff.

Are you saying it's part of your religion to wear band shirts? If not, you once again have fallen into a (slightly less) lousy analogy.

That is hardly what I'm saying. I'm saying that unless the context is actually racist, nobody should give a shit.

And who decides when the context is racist? You? Or the people who would be offended?

See, in this situation, the words are being used because we're discussion the power they have, we're not applying them to any given person, place, or thing. We're analyzing them without actually using them. The second someone says something directly to or about someone, context applies. Unless you seriously think someone is going to get banned for talking about the word "Jap" in a discussion ABOUT the word itself, you really don't have a leg to stand on. To use the word in any situation where it might have the damaging value as a hateful word is what we're concerned about, and there's really no reason to need to use the word in anything but a discussion like this, unless you're a lazy, insensitive prick who is so tied up in meaningless solipsisms that you neglect the real world in favor of some lunatic theoretical one that exists only in 400 level philosophy courses.

[Mr. Coffee]

Oh for fuck's sake... Are we still going on about this shit? It's simple. Some people find the term "jap" offensive, and given the term's racist origins we shouldn't use it. So can we please stop being pedantic assholes and move the fuck on to a new topic?

[Havok]

We've been trying, but some people just can't let it go.

[Mr. Coffee]

Some people are just so used to the board's debate culture that they like to argue just for the sake of having an argument I guess.

[Rye]

Are you saying it's part of your religion to wear band shirts? If not, you once again have fallen into a (slightly less) lousy analogy.

No. Does that matter in the slightest to what I was saying? No. The whole point here is that "are you a victim of bigotry? Not the exact same? Then don't say anything because you don't matter, you retarded goth emo limey fuck!" is so packed with double standards and well intentioned but boring idiocy.

And who decides when the context is racist? You? Or the people who would be offended?

I am presuming a level of "above zero tolerance" human behaviour recognition on behalf of the mods.

See, in this situation, the words are being used because we're discussion the power they have, we're not applying them to any given person, place, or thing. We're analyzing them without actually using them. The second someone says something directly to or about someone, context applies. Unless you seriously think someone is going to get banned for talking about the word "Jap" in a discussion ABOUT the word itself, you really don't have a leg to stand on. To use the word in any situation where it might have the damaging value as a hateful word is what we're concerned about, and there's really no reason to need to use the word in anything but a discussion like this, unless you're a lazy, insensitive prick who is so tied up in meaningless solipsisms that you neglect the real world in favor of some lunatic theoretical one that exists only in 400 level philosophy courses.

I have no idea what the garbled end of this paragraph was meant to be an allusion to, but whatever. If you think people can't handle being judged for their own words and the way they use them on a case by case basis, fine. I, personally, just find it an example of well-intentioned but unnecessary PC crap.

[Hotfoot]

No. Does that matter in the slightest to what I was saying? No. The whole point here is that "are you a victim of bigotry? Not the exact same? Then don't say anything because you don't matter, you retarded goth emo limey fuck!" is so packed with double standards and well intentioned but boring idiocy.

So all bigotry is equal? What's hilarious in this is that you're comparing wearing band attire to being born with a skin color apart from the norm, and you don't seem to understand the inherent difference. There are similarities, sure. I've read horror stories of kids being brutally beaten by their peers in places like Texas just for being a part of an atheist family. However, the fact that it's much, much easier to blend in often times mitigates a lot of potential problems. You can go years without knowing someone holds particular tenants, but you can't hide aspects of biology as easily. When you, a white man in a nation which is controlled largely by white men thinks that his trails even approach someone in a targeted minority during a time of conflict (be it military or economic) is laughable at best.

I am presuming a level of "above zero tolerance" human behaviour recognition on behalf of the mods.

So, and here's a thought, why don't we make it, and all words that might fill the same boat, words we just remove from our lexicon when referring to other people? It doesn't take much to refer to an ethnicity properly, and being of an ethnicity is not a negative thing, so give it a rest already. Your constant need to continue this argument is tiring and pointless.

I have no idea what the garbled end of this paragraph was meant to be an allusion to, but whatever. If you think people can't handle being judged for their own words and the way they use them on a case by case basis, fine. I, personally, just find it an example of well-intentioned but unnecessary PC crap.

Cry me a river because you can't call people ethnic slurs. You've yet to establish any halfway decent reason to allow it, outside of some supposed freedom of speech ideal that doesn't even hold up in American courts. Nobody's suggesting that the word be banned outright and that anyone who uses it, past, present, and future is banned without a second thought, that's a fabrication of your own mind. The point is more that the words in question should not be used, any use of them will be immediately looked at. In benign cases, chances are a warning will suffice, with repeated and severe cases resulting in administrative action. That's what I see from this, and what I think is more than reasonable.

Were the word to be absolutely banned outright, I wouldn't see a problem either, because outside of this discussion, there's NO REASON AT ALL to use the word. As others have said, this isn't a chat room, you can take the time to type out five extra letters, or shock, copy and paste if you use it a lot.

So cry all you want that this is some sort of miscarriage of justice. Maybe you can write an emo song about it and become the heartthrob of tens of lazy teenagers. Frankly, you lost it when you compared wearing a t-shirt to being a minority.

[Rye]

<sigh>

I wasn't saying it was a miscarriage of justice you genetic recessive; just that it was a waste of fucking time, likely a non-issue (what with all of the offended japanese people coming in and complaining about how they're so offended), and how it's a double standard because we happily mock people regardless of the feelings of the genuinely retarded or those who care for them. But hey, if it's a term attached to nationality in the 50s, holy shit, call the nursemaid, people will need hugs and bannings to soothe the suffering.

[Hotfoot]

<sigh>

I wasn't saying it was a miscarriage of justice you genetic recessive; just that it was a waste of fucking time, likely a non-issue (what with all of the offended japanese people coming in and complaining about how they're so offended), and how it's a double standard because we happily mock people regardless of the feelings of the genuinely retarded or those who care for them. But hey, if it's a term attached to nationality in the 50s, holy shit, call the nursemaid, people will need hugs and bannings to soothe the suffering.

Oh, so the time since the term was attached matters? Because if that's the case there's a certain N-word that's over a hundred and fifty years old. I guess that's safe to say now. I mean, hell, it's in a book read in many middle and high schools, right?

You just don't stop, do you? You run from one weak-assed argument to the next. It doesn't matter how long ago the term was first used, what matters is that it's still relevant. Barbarian was used by the Greeks to deride uncivilized people by mocking the sounds of their language. It ceases to be relevant because the peoples in question no longer exist as they did in ancient times. Similarly to your "Goth" (more appropriately, "Visigoth", you Vandal) analogy, the group in question no longer really exists, and so the term has been adapted to describe other things in modern language.

It seems you could do with a course or two in history, etymology, and basic logic. You ignore the points made against your positions and just flail endlessly between several key points, reaffirming them as obvious truths when in reality they are anything but.

The appeal to popularity argument, meanwhile, is useless in this case. We can easily recognize that the term is offensive without needing a first-hand offended party, even though we have one, and we don't need to go any further than that. All it takes is one offended party in the first place, so I don't see the point of you somehow setting the bar at needing numerous people to be offended. Did it ever occur to you that most people, if offended, might just turn around and not post here, due to a seemingly hostile atmosphere?

Look, "Miss Manners" means that we go out of our way to protect people from any and all insults. We're not. There's nothing stopping you from saying horrible, wretched things about the stupidity of one's actions. Hell, that's part of the board. However, I don't recall any part of the tagline being "Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and the mockery of them colored folk". Meanwhile, get off your damn high horse, acting like some defender of the handicapped. Using your idiotic rhetoric, why don't you get up in arms about the blind and deaf, who are apparently routinely mocked here by comparisons to people with sight and hearing who are seemingly incapable of using those gifts when faced with the amazingly obvious.

[Pelranius]

I hope this isn't derailing the topic, but what about the other "Jap"?

I'm speaking of "Jewish American Princess", naturally. I've only heard that's its offensive and I never asked my Jewish female friends about the usage.

Again, apologies if this is derailing.

For my two cents on the ethnic slur against Japanese people, I personally do not condone the use of the word nor use it, since Japanese descended acquaintances of mine find the word offensive (and given its history).

[Mr. Coffee]

That'd be "JAP" as it's an acronym, dude.

[Coyote]

Mischief Managed.