[Discussion] Stripping Lord Poe of his senatorial position.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

*slumps down*

I don't expect their immediate banning--I wouldn't ask that, for all that this is hurtful to the point of extreme anguish, it is not that severe of a violation of the rules. After all, as I recall correctly, the World Church of the Creator people were not immediately banned, either, but instead first titled.

That said, Shep has violated the rules of the board on truly countless occasions.

I am frankly more hurt by Ender, though. There was ample evidence proving what the correct pronouns were, both on the internet and on this board itself, this discussion having already happened, and he consciously chose to ignore it and try to defend Shep's hate as being "correct". I know, for instance, Martin and Dalton and so on have privately wanted Shep banned for a long, long time.

I'm not going to press for that, but on the other hand--what the hell else can we do? Shep apparently has come to think he's invincible from getting banned, and look where that's led.

I don't really care about the apologies. I'll slam back a couple glasses of port to knock myself out so I can wake up 7 hours from now for an engineering test. As long as I get better than 80% in that after this fiasco, no harm done.

What I want is for some substantial measure to be taken so that transwomen will feel welcome on this board. There is a reason that 66% of our trans population remains closeted when almost all of the board's gay and lesbian population is out and open, and we need to move to at least try and rectify that.

[The Yosemite Bear]

well because of personal history I recuse/abstain from any shep ban discussions/polls

[Darth Wong]

Marina makes an interesting point about the treatment of the "T" part of "GBLT", and whether they are not treated as well as the others. Edi mentioned that one user had been banned for using the word "faggot", although I don't recall the name of that user or the particulars. Having said that, many people have used it without being banned, although they did get flamed to a crisp for it.

And people do get extra leeway for making positive contributions, which is why Shep has not been banned before now. And I know that Shep is a particular hot-button issue for a lot of people here, for various reasons. However, I don't want to get into yet another Shep Discussion.

[K. A. Pital]

I can only say that people should've known better than start shit-slinging with gender insults, and if you go overboard in flames into the racial, gender or other insults, people should be ready to get banned. I called many members fucktards, retards or whatnot during occasional flaming sessions; but I did not go overboard with insults touching race, gender, biology or even culture. I was wrong; sometimes I thought I was totally right and the board members were being dicks; but so what? Flame someone's intellect if you want; call him a retard. Why resort to personal insults such which we should not tolerate?

I totally agree with Sea Skimmer, if you feel you are getting irritated, take a break. I have taken breaks from posting on SD.net on more than one occasion, and massive flame-fests are all good until you cross the line after which there's no excuse.

Moreover, no matter how bitter the debate is, and no matter how the theme of a debate might irritate you, there's no need to make it personal, and I thought that personal attacks were discouraged by SD.net's debating rules, as well as the entire debating culture we have here.

My proposal is for all parties to calm down, look into the situation, punish those guilty of what usually leads to a ban, and carry on.

P.S. Trolls have been banned all too often for the use of "fag" or "faggot", but the casual use of "fag" as an insult led to Golan III's immediate ban if I recall correctly.

[Ender]

EDIT: You know what, fuck it, lets run with this. This is what I was talking about with people acting way out of line. Yes marina, "he" is the proper pronoun to use on an object that lacks a defined sex. Ships are the only exception out of tradition. Go ahead and lose your shit over that. Then maybe look back at what I wrote. The very next sentence I stated that that rule of grammar is considered offensive leading to the use of it. English does not have rules of grammar for referring to transgender and genderqueer communities. And that's the facts of it. But by all means, continue to rage about the fact that the proper pronoun for my chair is "he"

I do not lack a defined sex you little worthless cumstain. Now you will read the post above this one and acknowledge that.

And I never said you did. I made the specific point that individuals are not objects.

The biologically correct term for what I am is a "Sex-inversed XY female" and I have a scientific publication source now posted in this thread to prove it--one that was ALSO posted in this thread back in July, you sanctimonious, pompous, dissemblating fucking whore.

Honestly I don't really follow the particulars of most people here, yourself included. Nothing special there, I think the number of people here I have any kind of real contact with is less then a dozen. Also, I do not appreciate the accusation that I am a liar, as I see nothing here that would at all give rise to that.

There is NO excuse for what you are doing now--it is hateful, hurtful, and unquestionable bigotry and I'm not going to take it laying down.

No, it isn't. I was not the one who referred to you as an it Marina. That was shep. Go ahead and look back at any of the discussions I've had with you or about you. I've referred to you as she or other female pronouns. All I did was post the rules of grammar pertaining to it. You have now posted some alternatives. Fine and dandy. But still irrespective to my behavior.

I am frankly more hurt by Ender, though. There was ample evidence proving what the correct pronouns were, both on the internet and on this board itself, this discussion having already happened, and he consciously chose to ignore it and try to defend Shep's hate as being "correct". I know, for instance, Martin and Dalton and so on have privately wanted Shep banned for a long, long time.

Marina (and Morilore), emotions are running high on this from everyone. So yes, as someone not directly involved in this I'm going to try and defend people. I did it for shep here, I've done it for you (Marina) elsewhere, I've even done it for people I personally loathe in oat other times. When passions are high, someone needs to take a step back and try and look at it from all possible angles. That's what I've done in the past, it is what I'm doing here, and it is what I will do in the future. I've seen too many cases of someone getting railroaded by someone in power for my conscience to let me do otherwise (note that this is to explain my motivations, not to state that such an act is occurring at this time). Senate discussion threads are the closest thing we have to trial here, and since they cannot speak for themselves someone needs to act as their defensive advocate, irregardless of what they think of the person or activity. In a case where there is already favor against the person in question it is doubly important that someone plays devil's advocate. Hate me for it all you want, but I would appreciate it if you hated me for my actions as devil's advocate rather than accusing me of committing the offense I am covering.

As to the ample evidence on the correct pronouns, I provided you the search string I plugged into google. What I posted came from the first response. Not much more that I can say about it than that.

[Darth Wong]

Part of the problem with people turning a debate over some political issue into a debate about personal histories and situations is when it creeps into board behaviour slowly. Ironically, it may start with the more established members; we tend to give long-time members more leeway in such matters, which leads to more and more people thinking it's OK. And then we're reluctant to crack down because too many people have already gotten away with it, and it would seem inconsistent.

As for emotional outbursts, those will happen. That is one of the reasons why more respected people who did not participate in a given incident are encouraged to post their feedback here, hopefully without fear that they will end up being prosecuted themselves.

I want to be welcoming to transgender people; I truly do. But I also fear the creation of an inquisition atmosphere, where people are afraid to express an opinion, especially here in this forum which was explicitly created to be a venue where people could discuss these things. That is a likely outcome if Ender gets in trouble for trying to defend Shep's characteristically thick-headed behaviour.

[The Yosemite Bear]

again as someone who is a bad judge of my own behavior, did I cross any lines in my few posts in said discussion?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'll call it even with Ender.

How about we make Shep's title "Marina's bitch" like we did with Axis Kast for Durandal, and call it a night? I'd totally be satisfied by that.

-- Marina, who is now planning on six hours of sleep

(gotten A's with less before!)

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The alternative I'd think reasonable if I can't bitchify Shep would be a 15-month temporary ban, that being equal to the amount of time that I vanished, all of 2006 and the first three months of 2007, due to trans-related issues.

[Darth Wong]

Well, regardless of what you feel is appropriate, this thread has long since ceased to be related to its original purpose. If you want to discuss Shep's latest outburst, please create a thread for it. I think this thread is long overdue to be closed.