Discussion: Possible Testing Changes

[Broomstick]

The possibility of changing Testing has come up a few times, and since we're already discussing possible changes to N&P I thought perhaps we could thrash this out as well.

The suggestions seem to break down to:

1) Eliminate testing and salt the ground it stood on.

2) Restrict testing to a more limited role

3) Keep Testing for testing and set up a new forum for "garbage" and frivolity.

4) Change nothing

Personally, I'm inclined to number 4, but I received a PM arguing for number 3 I though was worth sharing.

(slightly edited):

I think what the board needs is to more narrowly define the Testing forum as precisely what it is called: a forum where users can test out signatures, avatars, etc and maybe get some feedback, tips and advice. And enforce that limited activity like any other forum. I'd argue that it is a useful function; people do occasionally like to change their profile appearances and get feedback on them (I just recently did that myself), and it could also serve admin purposes as well.

However, as I see it, the Testing forum seems to be serving two functions as of right now: limited activity for actual testing, and a lot of activity that the board would label 'garbage' topics and such.

What might be a good idea is the creation of an additional forum labeled "The Garbage Pit" or "The Dumpster" (or something along those lines) where useless topics as mentioned could be created and deleted on a regluar basis.

I mean let's face it, every board is going to have people who feel the need to contribute mostly useless ideas and issues, and a forum where this could be explicitly done without any concern or oversight would be a good 'pressure valve', for lack of a better term. It would certainly clarify moderator activity of moving threads and posts to that location, where it would be quite clear what they qualify as. Plus it would also fix any issues of people looking in said forum and complaining about it...it would be a garbage forum, so whining about how you smell something bad in there would clearly demonstrate stupidity on part of the complainer.

That, or perhaps just renaming the Testing forum itself to something more accurately reflecting it's majority activity if actual testing purposes does not warrant a full forum.

[Noble Ire]

As far as I'm concerned, Testing as it exists now is perfectly fine. People do occasionally test things in it, and certain posters are always going to feel the need to indulge in silliness unsuited for any other part of the board from time to time; if we don't have a place for them, content-lacking threads and utter nonsense are simply going to pop up elsewhere more frequently. Auto-deletion keeps the number of similar threads well in check and removes the post-count incentive for their production.

The only thing I believe needs to be changed is Testing's relationship with the Senate. As far as I can tell, it exists outside of most of the standard rules and morays governing the rest of the site, and as such does not merit Senatorial oversight.

[Coyote]

Leave as is.

[Ghost Rider]

We really don't need any new rules, the dezinens are telling us(the moderators) that we have been too lenient with it all. So we, as the moderators, will go back to patrolling and squashing most of testing.

It's not an alternate AIM, it is still part of the board, and if you have a problem with it...too bad.

[RedImperator]

I don't think we need to do a single damn thing in Testing. I think this entire "RAR CRUSH TESTING!" movement is a gross overreaction to a handful of incidents. I'm waiting and waiting and waiting and I still haven't heard anyone articulate a reason to oppress it that doesn't boil down to "I don't like it". Testing serves as a useful safety valve, and as a place where members (including moderators sometimes) can goof off without spamming a regular forum. The threads auto-delete, nothing gets added to the post count. Nothing in Testing permanently impacts the board. Cracking down on Testing would be a complete waste of moderator time (when we have much bigger fish to fry), fail to solve any actual problems, generate needless resentment, and make the staff look like schoolmarms with bargepoles up our asses.

[Ghost Rider]

In the end they are still a part of the board, and no...it doesn't exonerate them. Again, if fuckers are getting pissy about Senators pointing out shit, why are they acting like bitches? Do these idiots fucking think anything is going to happen if the higher up disagree because any sort of reasons? One of the primary reasons for the Senate is discussion between adminstration and the rest of the board. So yes, discussing about a part of the board is just that.

Again, testing dezinens either realize they are part of the board, or we shouldn't give a fuck if Moderators or Posters go hog wild in the place. And we've seen what happens when that happens, and no cares for the results. So in the end, the moderators should keep a better eye and not let anything goes. It is still a part of the fucking board, and if it can't follow a modicum of the rules, then they can reap the whirlwind.

[RedImperator]

In the end they are still a part of the board, and no...it doesn't exonerate them. Again, if fuckers are getting pissy about Senators pointing out shit, why are they acting like bitches? Do these idiots fucking think anything is going to happen if the higher up disagree because any sort of reasons? One of the primary reasons for the Senate is discussion between adminstration and the rest of the board. So yes, discussing about a part of the board is just that.

So take it up with Mr.Coffee. Frankly, I've come around to the idea that if the plebes want to criticize the Senate, they can--my skin's thick enough for it--but if that's not the moderator consensus, then go ahead and punish whoever's howling about the Senate. But what I don't see is how Mr. Coffee calling out Kuja is "Testing" getting pissy. If the exact same incident had occurred in AMP, would you be accusing AMP of getting pissy? What about OT? SLAM?

Again, testing dezinens either realize they are part of the board, or we shouldn't give a fuck if Moderators or Posters go hog wild in the place. And we've seen what happens when that happens, and no cares for the results. So in the end, the moderators should keep a better eye and not let anything goes. It is still a part of the fucking board, and if it can't follow a modicum of the rules, then they can reap the whirlwind.

Who's saying the rules don't apply to Testing? This whole thing started when a Senator started a thread about a possible rule violation in Testing. We permbanned a user for a major rule violation in Testing. If you want to tan Mr. Coffee's hide for his outburst, nothing's stopping you. We've had, as far as I can tell, two "incidents" recently in Testing: this one (which, as was pointed out by Broomstick in the other thread, is minor compared to an identical dogpile on SC in AMP which drew no outrage whatsoever), and Warsie's fuckery, which, without Testing, probably would have happened in AMP or OT, catching possibly hundreds more denizens.

I'll go so far as to say, in fact, that Testing is better behaved than much of the board, or at least no worse. Yeah, it's full of spammy 4chan nonsense--but guess what? The Testing Forum Policy implicitly allows it (see rule 10, which acknowledges its existence but doesn't prohibit it). Where exactly is this epidemic of posters in Testing acting as if the board rules don't apply to them?

[Ender]

Testing is the forum relief valve. Let it be, and clean up the mess when it lifts, because as bad as that is it will be much worse without it.

[Ghost Rider]

In the end they are still a part of the board, and no...it doesn't exonerate them. Again, if fuckers are getting pissy about Senators pointing out shit, why are they acting like bitches? Do these idiots fucking think anything is going to happen if the higher up disagree because any sort of reasons? One of the primary reasons for the Senate is discussion between adminstration and the rest of the board. So yes, discussing about a part of the board is just that.

So take it up with Mr.Coffee. Frankly, I've come around to the idea that if the plebes want to criticize the Senate, they can--my skin's thick enough for it--but if that's not the moderator consensus, then go ahead and punish whoever's howling about the Senate. But what I don't see is how Mr. Coffee calling out Kuja is "Testing" getting pissy. If the exact same incident had occurred in AMP, would you be accusing AMP of getting pissy? What about OT? SLAM?

AMP, it's amazing if I go through and start cataloging the overuse of dogpiles on the latest flavor of the week. The whole motivational poster is either to masturbate to someone trying or laughing at the newbie failing and using up bandwidth to demonstrate how much a failure they are to no one but themselves.

OT? Half the times it's yet another near testing thread that only merits a topic because of other people's comments. Sometimes it's halfassed idiots who cannot even begin to grasp that asking a question a month later will result in the same answer.

And as for getting pissy, it's taking the time to go over and make sure it's not private ground where they can throw away the rules because it gets auto deleted.

As for SLAM, it's usually heavier regulated and when it does get pissy or spammy, gets locked or dumped.

Again, testing dezinens either realize they are part of the board, or we shouldn't give a fuck if Moderators or Posters go hog wild in the place. And we've seen what happens when that happens, and no cares for the results. So in the end, the moderators should keep a better eye and not let anything goes. It is still a part of the fucking board, and if it can't follow a modicum of the rules, then they can reap the whirlwind.

Who's saying the rules don't apply to Testing? This whole thing started when a Senator started a thread about a possible rule violation in Testing. We permbanned a user for a major rule violation in Testing. If you want to tan Mr. Coffee's hide for his outburst, nothing's stopping you. We've had, as far as I can tell, two "incidents" recently in Testing: this one (which, as was pointed out by Broomstick in the other thread, is minor compared to an identical dogpile on SC in AMP which drew no outrage whatsoever), and Warsie's fuckery, which, without Testing, probably would have happened in AMP or OT, catching possibly hundreds more denizens.

I'll go so far as to say, in fact, that Testing is better behaved than much of the board, or at least no worse. Yeah, it's full of spammy 4chan nonsense--but guess what? The Testing Forum Policy implicitly allows it (see rule 10, which acknowledges its existence but doesn't prohibit it). Where exactly is this epidemic of posters in Testing acting as if the board rules don't apply to them?

Then at least keep an eye out for outright violations. Shit flies by because no one wants to take the time to even try and then explodes because they get caught once, and wonder why the other ten times were missed.

[Dalton]

Red makes a good point. Although Testing fills me with seething hatred, I'd be hesitant to do anything at all - nothing in there sticks around, and nothing in there contributes to postcounts. Though it'd be funny to lock the forum for a day and let it empty out.

GR too makes a good point - just because it's not permanent, it doesn't give people carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they want without repercussions. The forum still needs to be policed, oppressed when necessary, but otherwise unmolested. Mostly because I don't want a bunch of weirdos bringing free-floating randomness to other forums.

[RedImperator]

AMP, it's amazing if I go through and start cataloging the overuse of dogpiles on the latest flavor of the week. The whole motivational poster is either to masturbate to someone trying or laughing at the newbie failing and using up bandwidth to demonstrate how much a failure they are to no one but themselves.

OT? Half the times it's yet another near testing thread that only merits a topic because of other people's comments. Sometimes it's halfassed idiots who cannot even begin to grasp that asking a question a month later will result in the same answer.

And as for getting pissy, it's taking the time to go over and make sure it's not private ground where they can throw away the rules because it gets auto deleted.

As for SLAM, it's usually heavier regulated and when it does get pissy or spammy, gets locked or dumped.

I think you're exactly right about the dogpiling. It's always been one of the uglier aspects of SDN's culture, and it's gotten out of hand, especially on the nonfiction side of the board (for whatever reason, I don't see it very much on the fiction side of the board, with the exception of when a trektard shows up in SWvST). That said, that's a situation that goes way beyond Testing. I'd be thrilled with a concerted effort to end dogpiling; I think the best course of action there would be to wipe it out in N&P first, and then apply what we learn to the rest of the board.

Then at least keep an eye out for outright violations. Shit flies by because no one wants to take the time to even try and then explodes because they get caught once, and wonder why the other ten times were missed.

If you're asking for more active moderation from the staff, I'd be happy to contribute. I'll admit, since my hiatus I haven't been very active. I think a major reason we're having so many problems is the staff. I think it's fair to say that despite the rather long official list of moderators, there aren't that many who are actively moderating anymore, largely because of outside circumstances, though in my case I'll admit I just haven't been holding up my end.

[Ghost Rider]

AMP, it's amazing if I go through and start cataloging the overuse of dogpiles on the latest flavor of the week. The whole motivational poster is either to masturbate to someone trying or laughing at the newbie failing and using up bandwidth to demonstrate how much a failure they are to no one but themselves.

OT? Half the times it's yet another near testing thread that only merits a topic because of other people's comments. Sometimes it's halfassed idiots who cannot even begin to grasp that asking a question a month later will result in the same answer.

And as for getting pissy, it's taking the time to go over and make sure it's not private ground where they can throw away the rules because it gets auto deleted.

As for SLAM, it's usually heavier regulated and when it does get pissy or spammy, gets locked or dumped.

I think you're exactly right about the dogpiling. It's always been one of the uglier aspects of SDN's culture, and it's gotten out of hand, especially on the nonfiction side of the board (for whatever reason, I don't see it very much on the fiction side of the board, with the exception of when a trektard shows up in SWvST). That said, that's a situation that goes way beyond Testing. I'd be thrilled with a concerted effort to end dogpiling; I think the best course of action there would be to wipe it out in N&P first, and then apply what we learn to the rest of the board.

This I am in complete agreement with. The dogpiling in N&P(along with one note spam) has gotten to astounding levels. It doesn't show up as hard in other parts, but killing it at the source will benefit the rest then hitting the outliers.

Mike has commented to giving us looser reigns in that particular forum. I honestly say we put a real effort and use them.

Then at least keep an eye out for outright violations. Shit flies by because no one wants to take the time to even try and then explodes because they get caught once, and wonder why the other ten times were missed.

If you're asking for more active moderation from the staff, I'd be happy to contribute. I'll admit, since my hiatus I haven't been very active. I think a major reason we're having so many problems is the staff. I think it's fair to say that despite the rather long official list of moderators, there aren't that many who are actively moderating anymore, largely because of outside circumstances, though in my case I'll admit I just haven't been holding up my end.

No more moderation then checking up on testing. I know most topics are harmless spam, and as such shouldn't require anyone to go in with a rampage and a hammer. Dalton put it best that it just needs to have an eye to make sure it does fall in line with the rest.

[The Yosemite Bear]

can you guys imagine what Off Topic would look like without spamworld?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I should probably also raise the occasionally reoccurring idea of letting Senators have mod powers in testing (like minimods really) so that problems can be more rapidly nipped in the bud by having a huge number of people able to deal with them there.

[RedImperator]

I should probably also raise the occasionally reoccurring idea of letting Senators have mod powers in testing (like minimods really) so that problems can be more rapidly nipped in the bud by having a huge number of people able to deal with them there.

The problem with that idea is and always has been that what you'd wind up with is 32 separate moderating policies for Testing.

[Ghost Rider]

I should probably also raise the occasionally reoccurring idea of letting Senators have mod powers in testing (like minimods really) so that problems can be more rapidly nipped in the bud by having a huge number of people able to deal with them there.

The problem with that idea is and always has been that what you'd wind up with is 32 separate moderating policies for Testing.

Exactly. Having 32 extra mods, even in testing is bad. And even with moderators there are times a few go hogwild on testing. The point is that we keep an eye, not smash them before us or smash topics because we find it amusing to press the delete button.

[Broomstick]

I should probably also raise the occasionally reoccurring idea of letting Senators have mod powers in testing (like minimods really) so that problems can be more rapidly nipped in the bud by having a huge number of people able to deal with them there.

Given the bias some senators have demonstrated towards Testing I can't support this. Those individuals would could not be relied upon to moderator in a fair and unbiased manner.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

*shrug* The idea has been raised before, so I just wanted to repeat it. I personally wouldn't bother to pay much attention to testing even if I had mod powers there, I'd admit.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How about a Good Standing inclusion for prior mods? Any prior moderator who left due to work/time constraints can, if they wish to, volunteer to moderate Testing if they now have more time again, and be automatically reinstated as a testing moderator?

[Lord Poe]

can you guys imagine what Off Topic would look like without spamworld?

You mean it would be worse than it already is?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Exactly Darth Poe, you and I know what Off Topic was like before the birthday, aniversary, and other bullshit was moved to testing, and although some folks would like me to save some BS from testing when it gets extreme or funny enough, I still can't do that any more. (I used to at one time, and only saved the catwar thread back when I did.)

[Lord Poe]

Exactly Darth Poe, you and I know what Off Topic was like before the birthday, aniversary, and other bullshit was moved to testing, and although some folks would like me to save some BS from testing when it gets extreme or funny enough, I still can't do that any more. (I used to at one time, and only saved the catwar thread back when I did.)

Fully agree. While sad, I don't need to read when someone's dog or cat died, when they are on the brink of homelessness, bouts with depression, etc. Didn't we have a rule about OT not turning into a blog? And we do have venting.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Seems a thread has stealthed it's way into my baliwack from testingstan during this discussion.....

I would like to know who moved it, like say POST in the tread in question saying your moving it from Testing to the BOTM?