Guess what?

[IRG CommandoJoe]

In the words of Aeron Azameen, "Shut up, Emkay." You know perfectly well that the Constitution was written in another time, for different things, and that your narrow interpretation of the Constitution is not one that is particularly applicable to "the several states" today.

Uhh.....why does this give the government the right to violate Amendments? Forgetting even if Shep is right or wrong about the government violating the Amendments, it is still inexcusable to violate Constitutional Amendments. I can't believe you used the "different time" reasoning. Laws are laws. That's what the Amendments are for. To make the laws more suitable for our changing times. If you disagree with an Amendment, make another Amendment to change it. But don't violate it.

[Stormbringer]

And Shep ignores it when some one asks for proof of his bullshit claims. Why am I not suprised.

[MKSheppard]

And Shep ignores it when some one asks for proof of his bullshit claims. Why am I not suprised.

http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20021017-90194126.htm

Authorities check gun shops for clues

Steve Miller
THE WASHINGTON TIMES Published 10/17/2002

Investigators hunting the Washington area sniper have cast the net far and wide over the region's gun community — confiscating sign-in logs from shooting ranges, tracking sales of .223-caliber weapons and knocking on gun owners' doors.

Montgomery County police and agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) came knocking on the door of Ken Scott's home in Silver Spring twice last week, asking for his thoughts about the shooting spree and about where he was during the times of the shootings.

Mr. Scott, confident the account of his whereabouts eliminated him as a suspect, said that either his neighbors gave his name on the tip line or investigators singled him out because he owns a gun shop.

On Tuesday, ATF agents arrived at Mr. Scott's Article II Unlimited store in Silver Spring accompanied by a man who had sold Mr. Scott a .223-caliber rifle — the same round that has killed nine and wounded two persons in the sniper attacks. The agent wanted to see the gun, but it had already been resold, Mr. Scott said.

"Based on what they said to me, it seemed they were checking everyone who owned any gun that shoots that [.223-caliber] ammunition," Mr. Scott said.

Some gun owners reported that ATF agents had taken people's rifles to perform test-firing experiments and later returned the weapons. The Washington Times could not confirm the reports.

Authorities declined to comment on the probe of gun dealers and gun owners. An FBI spokesman for the multiagency task force searching for the sniper said that they were using every possible strategy to catch the killer, and that countless interviews were being conducted.

U.S. marshals from the task force questioned the owner of Schelin Guns in College Park last week about a man who took a firearms-safety class at the shop in late September, less than a week before the shooting spree began Oct. 2 in Montgomery County.

The federal agents checked the class roster and asked about sales of .223-caliber rifles, said store owner John Schelin, who had not recently sold that type of weapon.

The agents told Mr. Schelin that they were following a tip about a specific man who took the class, which is mandatory when purchasing handguns or rifles such as AK-47s or AR-15s, which are considered assault weapons.

A Northern Virginia man recently visited by ATF agents was asked whether he owned a .223-caliber weapon or had access to a white van, which has been seen at the scene of some of the shootings. The man, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said he answered no to both questions, and the agents left.

He also said the agents told him that neighbors submitted his name to the tip line because he owns guns.

"You have all these news agencies saying to call the tip line if you know anybody who owns guns, if you know anybody with a white truck or anybody acting suspicious. You know, people act on that," he said. "It's too broad of a spectrum, and the ATF have to be thorough."

ATF agents last week confiscated the sign-in log from the firing range at Clark Brothers Guns in Warrenton, Va. The log included the signatures, some illegible, of customers who had used the range during the past six months, said owner Steve Clark.

"I don't know what they hope to glean from it," he said. "I guess they are trying anything."

Lamar Miller, a handwriting expert in Summerland Key, Fla., formerly with the Alabama State Forensic Lab, said the signatures could provide information beyond who used the range.

But it would be difficult to link a signature to the writing on the tarot card found at the scene of the Oct. 7 shooting outside a Bowie school that critically wounded a 13-year-old boy, he said.

"That's not to say it can't be done," Mr. Miller said. "You could find some similarities that might bear following up. They are trying to find some similarities such as the size of the letters and the shape of the letters. If there are [similarities] they would probably try to obtain more writing samples."

Task force investigators also paid a call on the Bethesda-Chevy Chase chapter of the Izaak Walton League of America, a conservationist and outdoorsman organization that operates a private firing range in Poolesville on the western edge of Montgomery County.

ATF agents have visited numerous gun shops in the Washington area to review sales records and federal 4473 forms that list buyer information for every firearms sale. In some instances, the investigators made copies of documents, said gun shop owners and employees.

[Stormbringer]

Shep, you idiot. Of course they'd check records of gun purchases, they'd have to be as retarded as you not to.

You claimed that federal agents were confiscating guns and breaking to constitution to do so, yet you never backed it up one bit. The only evidence was post from a gun board and as we all know those can be and often are purest bullshit. So I ask you again to provide proof that the feds are doing aything of the sort.

[Cal Wright]

Personally Shep, I'm gonna side with everyone else on this. It's not nationwide. It's not even some all damning leave us with nothing but baseball bats and our fists in the midsts of invasion. They're trying to find a FUCKING SERIAL KILLER. Did they take your gun? If they did, have the returned it? Do they intend to return it? Or will you never see it again? Shotguns, handguns, low end rifles I can see as a freedom to bear arms, but bull shit that can rip through a crowd is not a God given right as the Constitution and the Amendments were designed to protect. Go shoot a fucking squirrel or a damn deer.

[Sea Skimmer]

Ah, but this proves there is a de-facto gun registration scheme...

Who gives a shit? There is also a people registration scheme (what do you think your fucking social security number is for?), car registration, your financial records are open for any government agent to examine upon demand, etc. Corporations can easily find out more about you than you could possibly feel comfortable with, and you're freaking out because the government knows you had a gun? Big fucking deal.

Oh wait, I forgot, this is part of your "the government will become a totalitarian dictatorship if they know who has guns" mantra, right? Because the US military would run roughshod over the people if only they weren't terrified of villagers with small-arms

The Russians through like that. Fifteen thousand dead, ten years and 500 wrecked aircraft later they retrated.

[Faram]

The Russians through like that. Fifteen thousand dead, ten years and 500 wrecked aircraft later they retrated.

Funny they had rpg, stingers support from one superpower against an other and stuff like that. Now I don't know anything about american gun laws but is that sort of hevy weapons allowed for private citizens in the us?

And how many Afgans died for those 15'000 ruskies?

[Sea Skimmer]

The Russians through like that. Fifteen thousand dead, ten years and 500 wrecked aircraft later they retrated.

Funny they had rpg, stingers support from one superpower against an other and stuff like that. Now I don't know anything about american gun laws but is that sort of hevy weapons allowed for private citizens in the us?

And how many Afgans died for those 15'000 ruskies?

Funny, but when they started they had almost nothing but 65-80 year old Lee Enfields, even assault rifles where very rare. Heavy weapons non existant. Interesting that outside support only arrived in meaningful amounts after six years when the Afghans began proving highly effective on there own. Western MANPADS didn't show up until 1986, and Stingers only appeared in 1988.

Afghan resistance causalities where around 250,000 to Soviet and Government afghan troops. Not to bad considering the Soviets made use of everything they had short of nuclear weapons.

Really think US forces would use mustard gas on their fellow countrymen or level entire towns after someone on a nearby hill shot at a passing helicopter? Send patrols out to be ambushed knowing they'd be wiped out only to draw out the resistance so they could be bombed? Russians did all that and more, they still failed.

[Admiral Piett]

Funny, but when they started they had almost nothing but 65-80 year old Lee Enfields, even assault rifles where very rare. Heavy weapons non existant. Interesting that outside support only arrived in meaningful amounts after six years when the Afghans began proving highly effective on there own. Western MANPADS didn't show up until 1986, and Stingers only appeared in 1988.

Afghan resistance causalities where around 250,000 to Soviet and Government afghan troops. Not to bad considering the Soviets made use of everything they had short of nuclear weapons.

Really think US forces would use mustard gas on their fellow countrymen or level entire towns after someone on a nearby hill shot at a passing helicopter? Send patrols out to be ambushed knowing they'd be wiped out only to draw out the resistance so they could be bombed? Russians did all that and more, they still failed.

This is a pretty theoretical scenario in anyway.No one could invade the US.
And dictatorships do not work in the way the gun fanatics believe.
Should a realistic dictatorship take place the gun fanatics would be among the supporters of the dictator.

[Admiral Piett]

In the great majority of western countries dictatorships have arisen as a right wing answer to the political/economical problems and as a reaction
against the leftist "threat".More often than not they had a wide popular support,especially at the beginning but even after several years.
Frankly I do not buy that in a similar scenario the the guns lovers will take their arms and will "resist".First of all guerrilla requires wide popular support
that would lack as I said above.Even if you had some amount of popular support it would still be a fight between some gun lovers and a part of the population on one side and the US Army and the government supporters on the other.

[Enlightenment]

This is a pretty theoretical scenario in anyway.No one could invade the US.
And dictatorships do not work in the way the gun fanatics believe.
Should a realistic dictatorship take place the gun fanatics would be among the supporters of the dictator.

For instance imagine how the gun nuts would react if Shrubby declared himself dictator and started putting democrats in concentration camps. Rather than taking up the fight most of them would be cheering or even helping in the roundup of unAmerican liberals.