Microsoft Certified Systems ... What?

[Durandal]

From The Register.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/28040.html

The professional engineers' association in Canada is dismayed that Microsoft Certified System Engineers (MCSEs) are calling themselves "engineers". Microsoft agreed to discourage the use of the term among MCSEs last year, but changed its mind in the summer.

The decision has angered the CCPE (Canadian Council of Professional Engineers), which is rallying holders of a P.Eng qualification to rally against the bogus boffins. In Canada only licensed professionals can call themselves engineers, who must be P.Engs, a trade qualification administered by the regional territories. Non-P.Engs attempting to pass themselves off as engineers have even been fined.

Marie Lemay, chief executive of the Canadian engineers' association the CCPE (Canadian Council of Professional Engineers) wrote recently that "the term 'engineer' does carry significant value, or weight, because engineers and the engineering profession have gained a reputation for technical excellence."

Implying that MCSEs don't.

"Unless we make the public aware of the meaning and significance of the P.Eng. and what it means to call yourself an engineer, there will always be confusion that pushes people like MCSE certificate holders to take advantage of our status as engineers and, more importantly, inadvertently put the Canadian public at risk."

Indeed. There's nothing more sickening than hearing someone attempt to push their way to the center of a public crowd with the cry, "Let me through, I'm an engineer!" only to discover that their skills amount only to a meager knowledge of Visual Basic.

"We must take ownership of who and what we are, and we need every engineer in Canada to get on side," urges Lemay.

According to the P.Eng website, a P.Eng is a "global brand". In addition to an engineering degree, a prospective P.Eng must complete two to four years of internship under the tutelage of an older P.Eng.

P.Engs must ensure that they:-


* Are legally and ethically responsible for your work, and hold public safety paramount

* Maintain the highest levels of competence, as judged by your peers

* Continually upgrade your knowledge

* Adhere to a strict code of ethics



" Most other places you can buy yourself a set of spanners and an oily rag and call yourself an engineer," writes one participant to the discussion here.

Perhaps in deference to local sensitivities, Microsoft can use the less charged description "Thingy" (MCST) until a compromise is reached.

Thingies and real engineers are welcome to comment. ®

[Darth Wong]

They are completely correct. In this country, it is illegal to use the professional title "engineer" unless you meet a set of requirements that range from academic to work experience and ethics. An MCSE satisfies none of these requirements. It is totally unacceptable that they abuse the terminology in this manner, since an MCSE is nothing more than a Microsoft software technician.

I'm glad they are finally launching the complaint, which I feel to be long overdue.


Michael Wong, P. Eng

(yes, I know, I don't normally mention my title, but in this particular case, I will make an exception because it's actually relevant).

[TrailerParkJawa]

Someday I might become an MCSE, but I dont mind admitting that I am not an engineer in the classical sense. I personally have little use for titles. Everyone in my last company knew what to call me for.

ie) You need Visio installed. Okay.
You need an extra phone line, okay let me go run the wire.
You need an extra hard drive.
You got a virus, okay Ill be right over.


Im just the desktop guy. Not a desktop engineer, not a business analyst, technology specialist. But you know if you dont inflate your titles you sometimes wont even get your resume looked at. Kind of a catch 22.

Just my two cents..

[Mr Bean]

You mean I used to be allowed to call myself an Engineer? Realy?

(*Bean is a certfied MCSE and had no idea he could at one point Snootily call himself an Engineer)
To me it was a very long modderatly diffcult test that basicl asked me the same questions six diffrent ways, I had no idea I could call myself Engineer any more than completing the First Aid Traning Course let myself add MD to my name




Mr Bean Proud.... umm quailfied Thingy

[Pu-239]

Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is an oxymoron

[TheDarkOne]

I posted something on this, a couple of months ago and no one responded . We talked about it a bit in my "Society and the Engineer" course.
They really shouldn't be allowed to call themselve engineers I'm going to have to go through 4 year of university, with a course load greater then the maximum course load science and arts students are allowed to take every year. Then, I have work for four years in an engineering feild, under a P.Eng, then take a test on ethics, before I can call myself an engineer.
And as I understand it all MCSE's have to do is a few months in some college, then right an exam.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

You mean I used to be allowed to call myself an Engineer? Realy?

(*Bean is a certfied MCSE and had no idea he could at one point Snootily call himself an Engineer)
To me it was a very long modderatly diffcult test that basicl asked me the same questions six diffrent ways, I had no idea I could call myself Engineer any more than completing the First Aid Traning Course let myself add MD to my name




Mr Bean Proud.... umm quailfied Thingy

Hmm sounds like something I could ace between Quake games... BTW cute AV Bean!
Oh BTW...
400th Post! W00000000T!!!

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Another difference between me and an MCSX besides my not having the title is that I can use non-M$-sanctioned solutions (Linux and Mozilla, anyone?) while the MCSX is stuck with WinDOS and Idiot Exploiter...

[Faram]

And as I understand it all MCSE's have to do is a few months in some college, then right an exam.

Nope easier than that.

I where unemployed way back 97-98 and went to the unemployment office. The said no big deal, you are in to computers rite? Zap bang I where in computers & networking for dummies class.

Aced that crap, accepted position as teacher, got a free round at any certifications i cared to take.

Got mcse+i, and some other crap.

Quit that crummy work and now I work with networks and stuff

But I would never ever call myself an engineer.

Ahh well.

/edit typos..

[Faram]

BTW it's not only microsoft that is doing this crap...

http://www.redhat.com/training/rhce/courses/

Red Hat Certified Engineer

Crymmy distro I know but the trend is clear...

[Enlightenment]

Considering the skill level of some of these people a better breakdown of the term MCSE would be 'Microsoft Certified Sales Expert.' About all these clueless nitwits do is soft-sell the ignorant on Microsoft-only "solutions" that are unreliable, expensive, and serve no purpose other than to line God Bill's pockets.

[Stuart Mackey]

From The Register.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/28040.html

snip

A good freind of mine is a engineer, and he thinks the 'engineer' in MCSE is laughable at best. To get a MCSE requires you sit a number of multiple choice exams with questions on possible problems in a Mircrosoft environment. At worst you are looking at one years full time study {From a basis of no real computer/network knowledge}plus the expence of the relivant text books and the cost of the exams.

Fortunatly, MCSE is entry level only and qualifys you to refill the paper in the printers at most companys, because most companys realise that MCSE does not confer five or more years experience in a business environment that requires more skills than a shiny new MCSE certificate.
But it is a help for all that, as it is some evidence that you have a modicum of knowledge in Microsoft software and O/S's

[Faram]

Stop dissing my hardearned pice of plastic!



Only pice of MS stuff I actualy use.. as a passcard to the server hell...

[Mr Bean]

To the five people in the thread who refered to MCSE as "Idiots" "Nitwits" "Dumbasses" and the like, May I kindly point that by Implication that would incudle old Bean here and also how illogical it is given the fact MCSE is nothing more than a certification one recives after taking a varity of tests


Thusly if one goes on that logic one could move on and call all people "brillant" who take IQ Tests or "Racist" to all those who take the SATs

[Stuart Mackey]

To the five people in the thread who refered to MCSE as "Idiots" "Nitwits" "Dumbasses" and the like, May I kindly point that by Implication that would incudle old Bean here and also how illogical it is given the fact MCSE is nothing more than a certification one recives after taking a varity of tests


Thusly if one goes on that logic one could move on and call all people "brillant" who take IQ Tests or "Racist" to all those who take the SATs

Bean my dear old chap, I do not think that holders of MCSE are Idiots, Nitwits or even Dumbasses, I object to them being labeled as 'engineers', when they most certainly are not engineers. Refering to them as Mircosoft Certified Systems Technicians would be more accurate.
MCSE tends to be veiwed here as entry level for sys admins, and in and of itself is not that great, but backed by experience and knowledge of, and qualifications in, other things like Cisco, it is quite good.
But no one would, or should, call a MCSE a engineer.

[Crazy_Vasey]

To the five people in the thread who refered to MCSE as "Idiots" "Nitwits" "Dumbasses" and the like, May I kindly point that by Implication that would incudle old Bean here and also how illogical it is given the fact MCSE is nothing more than a certification one recives after taking a varity of tests

I think MCSEs have a bad rap because of the amount of fuckwits who got the qualification and them smarmed their way into tech jobs during the dotcom bomb before promptly fucking everything they ever did in the company up.