Assault rifle news

[Vympel]

Taken from strategypage.com-

In the 1990s the Russians brought out the AN94 in 5.45X39mm. This was to be the new standard assault rifle but budgetary considerations make deployment doubtful [right now that is- it's in low rate production]. The weapon is slightly lighter in weight than the AK74 and uses the same pressed metal, spot welding, rivet design as its predecessor but with a new “blow back, shift pulse” operating system. Reportedly highly reliable at 10,000 rounds between failures it will fire a ‘burst’ of 2-3 rounds before the user feels any recoil, reducing round dispersion. On full auto it fires the first two rounds at 1800 rpm and all succeeding at the more controllable rate of 600 rpm.

I knew most of that, except for the 10,000 rounds between failures reliability figure (previous sources have alleged great reliability, but thats it)- how does this stack up to other latest generation assault rifles?

from globalsecurity.org

The OICW is now type classified as the XM29 (so I guess it'll be M29) and the current deployment plan is 4 per 9-man squad. Current efforts focused on making the weapon lighter and more reliable.

Interestingly, the AN-94, G36 (may be wrong about that) and M29 all have two-round burst instead of three-round. The third round supposedly goes off target most of the time.

[Knife]

Standard rule of thumb with automatic weapons or one's with burst. The third round alway's goes high. By the time the third round fires, the recoil of the weapon has already started to kick the weapon up off the target.

[Sea Skimmer]

Standard rule of thumb with automatic weapons or one's with burst. The third round alway's goes high. By the time the third round fires, the recoil of the weapon has already started to kick the weapon up off the target.

I've heard more then one case of the first round hitting the belly, the second the chest and the third going over the head.


Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

[nechronius]

I've heard more then one case of the first round hitting the belly, the second the chest and the third going over the head.

Muzzle flip causes the gun to tilt up due to the direction of the recoil relative to the way you are controlling the weapon. How you control the muzzle flip and the intensity of the weapon's tendency are the main factors behind the pattern you speak of. A properly trained individual can put all three shots from an M16-A1 into a small circle while one not properly trained or experienced may allow the weapon's muzzle to climb in the manner you speak of. Obviously a machine pistol is much more difficult to control and tends to shoot more wildly.

Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

Are you saying that the US Army is considering the replacement of the OICW's 5.56x45 rifle ammo with the 5.7x28 SMG rounds in a weapon that is similar to the OICW?

Hmm... Seems rather odd that they would replace a proven rifle cartridge with something with considerably less range and punch for their future advanced weapons system. Not saying it isn't true, but it does sound odd...

[Oberleutnant]

Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

Do you mean the FN2000 assault rifle or some other Fabrique Nationale product?

[nechronius]

Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

Do you mean the FN2000 assault rifle or some other Fabrique Nationale product?

FN2000 still uses the 5.56 NATO, so either that's not it or they have a 5.7 version or it's just an unsubstantiated rumor. In any case, not a lot of satisfaction here without more information.

[Beowulf]

Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

So they're going to change it from one standard rifle caliber for all infantry weapons to two incompatible ones? Sure... wasn't one of the reasons why they switched to the SAW to be able to use the same ammo in both the machine gun and the rifles in a squad?

[Sea Skimmer]

I've heard more then one case of the first round hitting the belly, the second the chest and the third going over the head.

Muzzle flip causes the gun to tilt up due to the direction of the recoil relative to the way you are controlling the weapon. How you control the muzzle flip and the intensity of the weapon's tendency are the main factors behind the pattern you speak of. A properly trained individual can put all three shots from an M16-A1 into a small circle while one not properly trained or experienced may allow the weapon's muzzle to climb in the manner you speak of. Obviously a machine pistol is much more difficult to control and tends to shoot more wildly.

Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

Are you saying that the US Army is considering the replacement of the OICW's 5.56x45 rifle ammo with the 5.7x28 SMG rounds in a weapon that is similar to the OICW?

Hmm... Seems rather odd that they would replace a proven rifle cartridge with something with considerably less range and punch for their future advanced weapons system. Not saying it isn't true, but it does sound odd...

No, it makes perfect sence. The rifle component is only intended for use under 100 meters or so. At that range a P-90 is ideal, if the magazine problumes can be fixed anyway. As it is such a short barrel doesnt go real well with a 5.56 round.

[weemadando]

Standard rule of thumb with automatic weapons or one's with burst. The third round alway's goes high. By the time the third round fires, the recoil of the weapon has already started to kick the weapon up off the target.

*sorry guys, but I have to post it out*

Metal Storm. Pistol.

Fires a 3 round burst in less time than it takes recoil to shift the aim. Impacts are only seperated by muzzle velocity variants.

[Sea Skimmer]

Standard rule of thumb with automatic weapons or one's with burst. The third round alway's goes high. By the time the third round fires, the recoil of the weapon has already started to kick the weapon up off the target.

*sorry guys, but I have to post it out*

http://www.metalstorm.com. http://www.metalstorm.com/04_videos/videos.html#vle.

Fires a 3 round burst in less time than it takes recoil to shift the aim. Impacts are only seperated by muzzle velocity variants.

And reloading takes a barrel change, real convenient to carry around, especially since they have to be significantly long then those of a normal weapon. The only thing Metal storm will ever be useful for is small caliber grenade launchers. There's no point to any of the other ideas.

The artillery plans especially are beyond stupid.

[nechronius]

No, it makes perfect sence. The rifle component is only intended for use under 100 meters or so. At that range a P-90 is ideal, if the magazine problumes can be fixed anyway. As it is such a short barrel doesnt go real well with a 5.56 round.

No, I still don't quite buy it. Not saying it's not true, but I think you give up more than you gain.

1. Interchangeable magazines with everyone else in your squad - When you boil down the OICW, you're just dealing with a high tech grenade launcher weapon attached to an assault rifle. Having a weapon that is compatible with squadmates means you can easily share ammo between everybody as needed instead of having segregated ammunition.

2. Striking power - aside from the explosives carried by the OICW unit, the weapon can function as a rifle. If you strip it of the 5.56x45 you are reducing some of its effectiveness, especially its ability to deliver kill shots at 300+ meters using bullets since it has a built-in scope.

There are other advantages.

Yes, it's true a short barrel and the 5.56x45 dont' go real well. Taking a standard 62 grain cartridge and allowing its velocity to dip below around 2600 fps means the bullet won't properly break at the cannelure, resulting in poor wound characteristics. But it's still no worse than a 5.7x28 traveling at 2100 or so fps.

Disadvantages of course exist, like weight, space, and noise. I haven't disregarded the disadvantages at all.

Look, all of my arguments don't mean diddly squat since it's just my personal speculation here. But I am taking a "believe it when I see it" stance when it comes down to changing the fundamentals of this weapon. This isn't a minor design or ergonomic change, it's a pretty significant change in the role of the weapon. I'd love to read an article to see what their reasons are or not. If you have a link, please share.

[weemadando]

And reloading takes a barrel change, real convenient to carry around, especially since they have to be significantly long then those of a normal weapon. The only thing Metal storm will ever be useful for is small caliber grenade launchers. There's no point to any of the other ideas.

The artillery plans especially are beyond stupid.

Actually I've seen another proposal of theirs where you simply "snap off" the entire barrel assembly and plug a new one onto the stock. Takes the same amount of time as a standard magazine change and needs to be done less often due to the greater capacity of the magazines.

The individual barrel change is good for police who won't be in prolonged firefights, but on the battlefield its silly.

And the area-denial systems are pretty damn cool.

[Sea Skimmer]

And reloading takes a barrel change, real convenient to carry around, especially since they have to be significantly long then those of a normal weapon. The only thing Metal storm will ever be useful for is small caliber grenade launchers. There's no point to any of the other ideas.

The artillery plans especially are beyond stupid.

Actually I've seen another proposal of theirs where you simply "snap off" the entire barrel assembly and plug a new one onto the stock. Takes the same amount of time as a standard magazine change and needs to be done less often due to the greater capacity of the magazines.

The individual barrel change is good for police who won't be in prolonged firefights, but on the battlefield its silly.

And the area-denial systems are pretty damn cool.

So was WAM, the Uber land mine of doom. I'd rather see it upgraded and funded then anything metelstorm

I dont see much need for police to have multi round burst, if theyre fighting someone with body armor its time to call SWAT. SWAT teams won't like Metelstorm for the same reasons infantry wouldn't.

The proposal you discrbied for barrel changing is the only one I'm aware of. Fact remains that you need need a much long barrel then normal, and you have to carry around a bunch of them with you. Reloading them in the field is also going to be a bitch, if its even possibul.

[Sea Skimmer]

No, it makes perfect sence. The rifle component is only intended for use under 100 meters or so. At that range a P-90 is ideal, if the magazine problumes can be fixed anyway. As it is such a short barrel doesnt go real well with a 5.56 round.

No, I still don't quite buy it. Not saying it's not true, but I think you give up more than you gain.

1. Interchangeable magazines with everyone else in your squad - When you boil down the OICW, you're just dealing with a high tech grenade launcher weapon attached to an assault rifle. Having a weapon that is compatible with squadmates means you can easily share ammo between everybody as needed instead of having segregated ammunition.

2. Striking power - aside from the explosives carried by the OICW unit, the weapon can function as a rifle. If you strip it of the 5.56x45 you are reducing some of its effectiveness, especially its ability to deliver kill shots at 300+ meters using bullets since it has a built-in scope.

There are other advantages.

Yes, it's true a short barrel and the 5.56x45 dont' go real well. Taking a standard 62 grain cartridge and allowing its velocity to dip below around 2600 fps means the bullet won't properly break at the cannelure, resulting in poor wound characteristics. But it's still no worse than a 5.7x28 traveling at 2100 or so fps.

Disadvantages of course exist, like weight, space, and noise. I haven't disregarded the disadvantages at all.

Look, all of my arguments don't mean diddly squat since it's just my personal speculation here. But I am taking a "believe it when I see it" stance when it comes down to changing the fundamentals of this weapon. This isn't a minor design or ergonomic change, it's a pretty significant change in the role of the weapon. I'd love to read an article to see what their reasons are or not. If you have a link, please share.

Your long rnage fire argument doesnt work. The whole point of OICW is that the greande get used at any real range. The rifle is just meant for close in spray and prey work, and for that a P-90 is a better deal.

You make the mistake of thinking the launcher is secondary. Its not, it is the primary weapon. Rifle power is secondary.

[weemadando]

I dont see much need for police to have multi round burst, if theyre fighting someone with body armor its time to call SWAT. SWAT teams won't like Metelstorm for the same reasons infantry wouldn't.

I think the reason regular police like them is the multiple ammo types and full electronic safeties. So you can have bean-bag rounds in one barrel and lethal ammo in the other. And also being able to record every round fired and coding the weapons safety so only certain people can use it.

[Sea Skimmer]

I dont see much need for police to have multi round burst, if theyre fighting someone with body armor its time to call SWAT. SWAT teams won't like Metelstorm for the same reasons infantry wouldn't.

I think the reason regular police like them is the multiple ammo types and full electronic safeties. So you can have bean-bag rounds in one barrel and lethal ammo in the other. And also being able to record every round fired and coding the weapons safety so only certain people can use it.

You can do a lot of that stuff on a normal gun, and there are already shotguns on the market that have one barrel feeding from two different magazines which can be switched between.

[nechronius]

Your long rnage fire argument doesnt work. The whole point of OICW is that the greande get used at any real range. The rifle is just meant for close in spray and prey work, and for that a P-90 is a better deal.

You make the mistake of thinking the launcher is secondary. Its not, it is the primary weapon. Rifle power is secondary.

Instead of wasting your breath trying to rationalize your unconventional idea, why don't you do us both a favor and come up with a link somewhere with information to support you because I haven't been able to find one myself. Right now the rifle element of the OICW is the H&K G36 and while the idea of a 5.7x28 SMG element is intriguing, so far I've seen zero to support this. Again I'm not saying you're wrong (as you seem so apt to say about me) I'm merely saying I'm interested but skeptical.

[Beowulf]

Your long rnage fire argument doesnt work. The whole point of OICW is that the greande get used at any real range. The rifle is just meant for close in spray and prey work, and for that a P-90 is a better deal.

You make the mistake of thinking the launcher is secondary. Its not, it is the primary weapon. Rifle power is secondary.

What happens when the squad gets into a fire fight, and the M-16 gunners run out of ammo? If the OICW uses the same rifle caliber, then they can just hand over some of the ammo, if they use incompatible ammunition types, then the M-16 users are out of the fight.

Anyway, even w/ the short barrel enforced upon them, the OICW should still perform acceptably w/ the .223 cartridge.

[Vympel]

You should look up the OICW information on the web mate. The 20mm grenade launcher IS the primary engagement weapon. The 'rifle' (shorter than a carbine really) is only for close in work.

[Sparkticus]

Ok, time to post my favourite...

The Styer ACR project...


http://world.guns.ru/assault/as56-e.htm

Light, rugged, and it fires flechett rounds. Might even be able to mod this thing to fire DU penetrators...

Aside from that, it has a muzzle velocity of 1450m/s, and still has a velocity of 910m/s 600 metres downrange. That impresses me, as it almost becomes a direct fire weapon, no need to compenstate for enemy movement.

[Knife]

Standard rule of thumb with automatic weapons or one's with burst. The third round alway's goes high. By the time the third round fires, the recoil of the weapon has already started to kick the weapon up off the target.

I've heard more then one case of the first round hitting the belly, the second the chest and the third going over the head.


Evidently the US Army is now strongly considering replacing the current weapon being use for OICW with a new design from FN, which offers the same capabilities, IIRC it has the 5.7mm gun from the P-90 with better magazines rather then 5.56, but is more rugged and lighter.

That would depend mostly on ones shooting position. In an unstable standing position the breathing of a standard shooter tends to spray the shots up along with any recoil if the shooter is firing rapidly and not allowing for follow through. This would give you a wide range of hits that would deviate according to the flaws in the shooter.

If the shooter was in a more stable position, say prone, then the first two shots can and do in most cases hit roughly in the same spot according to the skill of the shooter. The third shot goes high due to the recoil takeing the rifle off target. If there is a gun out there that fires fast enough then I guess the third would follow the first and second more, but I would think the recoil would be harsher due to the higher rate of fire.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Petty men.
When will you learn that the AUG is king? Mwahahaha!

[Knife]

Your long rnage fire argument doesnt work. The whole point of OICW is that the greande get used at any real range. The rifle is just meant for close in spray and prey work, and for that a P-90 is a better deal.

You make the mistake of thinking the launcher is secondary. Its not, it is the primary weapon. Rifle power is secondary.

What happens when the squad gets into a fire fight, and the M-16 gunners run out of ammo? If the OICW uses the same rifle caliber, then they can just hand over some of the ammo, if they use incompatible ammunition types, then the M-16 users are out of the fight.

Anyway, even w/ the short barrel enforced upon them, the OICW should still perform acceptably w/ the .223 cartridge.

I think you have it backwards. If the three people in the fireteam run out of .223, the one guy with the OICW is not going to be able to supply all three of the guy's with ammo. Now if the OICW guy runs out, then it would be nice to barrow some from the other guy's. The SAW's capability of plugging in a mag from a M16 is more or less in case of an emergence type thing. Those 30 rounds (29 if its loaded right) don't last long at 750rpm.

And I may be out of it a little, but is the OICW the new toy that has a timing chip in the ojive that counts down from firing to target and then explodes? If so, they should stop strapping extra's on it and just issue the OICW guy a side arm for a secondary weapon. Give the guy some flechete, some HE or HEDP, and other nice stuff like WP, smoke, CS, shit like that.

[Vympel]

. The SAW's capability of plugging in a mag from a M16 is more or less in case of an emergence type thing. Those 30 rounds (29 if its loaded right) don't last long at 750rpm.

I've heard that the SAW has a high tendency to jam if you fire it with an M16 mag ... that true?

[Knife]

. The SAW's capability of plugging in a mag from a M16 is more or less in case of an emergence type thing. Those 30 rounds (29 if its loaded right) don't last long at 750rpm.

I've heard that the SAW has a high tendency to jam if you fire it with an M16 mag ... that true?

Sort of, the M249 tends to jam anyway if you don't have a lot of lube in it. The feed system is also not all that great, so any bend in the belt will break the cycle of operation in the weapon. As for the mag, IIRC the mag port was a after thought type thing.