Roman Empire vs. The Dragon of the East (China)

[Stravo]

Inspired by Admiral Griffith's post, I remember reading somewhere that the Chinese Empire at its height had heard of the ROmans and the Emperor at the time decided to conquer the Romans and went so far as to dispatch a grand army to do it. On the way to the Eastern edges of teh Roman Empire the Mongols attacked China and the Emperor recalled his army justr as they were on teh outskirts of the eastern Empire.

Let's say that the Mongols don't attack and the Chinese empire's Grand Army continues on its path to war. They are attacking Rome under Augustus/Tiberius' time.

What sort of outcome and clashes are we looking at? Do the legions prevail against the Chinese? I'm going to hazard a guess that the eastern provinces fall to the unexpected attack but the Romans soon mobilize their legions to fight.

Some things to consider, the Chinese supply lines will be lllooonnngggg, coming all the way from China to Persia. The Romans will sort of be fighting on their home ground. Let's keep outside influences out of this fight so Germans won't be attacking to distract the Romans and the Mongols will leave the Chin dynasty alone. It's a straight up fight between two great empires.

[paladin]

I would have to give it to Rome only because of the home ground advantage. I would think that if Rome could survive against China that Rome would probably look to return the favor to China.

[RedImperator]

I don't know much about the Chinese army, but the Han dynasty was in no condition to send an army down the Silk Road in the first century BC.

That being said, let's say by some magic there's no logistical challenge in getting an army from the westernmost border of China to the easternmost border of Rome. I won't comment on tactics because I know next to nothing about the Chinese army, but strategically, the Chinese will be practically right on top of the wealthiest part of the Empire, and within 1000 miles of the Nile delta, Rome's breadbasket. A Roman counterattack, in the meantime, would have to cross thousands of miles of uninhabitable desert to reach the fertile heartland of China. I suspect the Romans will manhandle the Chinese on a tactical level because of the declining state of the dynasty and the general badassness of the legions in the early Empire, but the Chinese can strike at critical Roman assets and then retreat back into the desert, while the Romans can't do any more than torch a few Chinese frontier outposts.

[Raxmei]

In both threads I have trouble deciding because I know absolutely nothing about the Chinese army. Can you tell anything about it?

[Exonerate]

Chinese army is mostly lots of infantry. That's pretty much it. Good archers, and they would probably have Gunpowder by this time. Chinese probably lose this one though, because of logistics.

[Falcon]

Chinese army is mostly lots of infantry. That's pretty much it. Good archers, and they would probably have Gunpowder by this time. Chinese probably lose this one though, because of logistics.

Having gunpowder doesn't mean they had an effective firearm or even an effective rocket for military purposes. I suspect (not sure) that gunpowder would have been a non - factor. Romes superior tactics, training, and infrastructure would have prevailed.

[Joe]

If China had actually gone through with this endeavor, it would have ranked up there with the pyramids as one of the biggest wastes of time and effort in the history of mankind. Think about it - sending thousands of troops thousands of miles ON FOOT in order to kill thousands of experienced Roman soldiers and expand China's rule over thousands of people who would very much NOT want to be ruled by China. This would have just been all kinds of stupid.

[Stuart Mackey]

Chinese army is mostly lots of infantry. That's pretty much it. Good archers, and they would probably have Gunpowder by this time. Chinese probably lose this one though, because of logistics.

Having gunpowder doesn't mean they had an effective firearm or even an effective rocket for military purposes. I suspect (not sure) that gunpowder would have been a non - factor. Romes superior tactics, training, and infrastructure would have prevailed.

As far as I know the Chinese were only experimenting with firearmes as we know them in the 13th century and they never developed a good infanty weapon and their naval artillry was anti-personal at best int he 16th century.

[Stuart Mackey]

China would never have been able to send enough troops to defeat Rome. While China could mobilise enormous armies they could never do so for very long due to the logistics of it, mainly food. Also Roman interior lines of communication would alow the Romans to bring superiour forces to bear on their own territory.
In short the Chines that do manage to reach Roman territory loose due to exhustion {from their long march, no pun intended}, lack of suppliesand lack of numbers. The reverse is true for Rome if they try to attack China.

Geography and technology is against any succesful war of conquest at this time over such distances.

[Falcon]

I'd give Rome better odds at beating China than China at beating Rome. (talking one invading the other) Rome had a great engineer core, their armies were pretty self-sufficient, etc... Realistically though, during this period of history distance was just too great a factor for anyone to overcome. If Rome poured 100% of all its combined military and economic efforts into invading China it still would have been a huge undertaking, if not an impossible one.

[Ted]

I'd give it to Rome.

Heck, Marina wrote a whole alt hist fic in which Rome still exists in 2753 (Roman date, 2000ad ours). I forget the site that it is at, Marina would though.

[HemlockGrey]

Gloria ad filios Romae!
Glory to the sons of Rome!

Now, I'm not sure which declension 'Rome' would fit under, so I shoved it into 1st, although it may be either a 3rd or a 2nd declension neuter, not sure, and IIRC the genitive ending for singular 1st declension nouns is 'ae' but I could be wrong.

Also, I almost put 'filium' instead of 'filios'. Silly me, confusing singular and plural accusative cases.

[RedImperator]

Gloria ad filios Romae!
Glory to the sons of Rome!

Now, I'm not sure which declension 'Rome' would fit under, so I shoved it into 1st, although it may be either a 3rd or a 2nd declension neuter, not sure, and IIRC the genitive ending for singular 1st declension nouns is 'ae' but I could be wrong.

Also, I almost put 'filium' instead of 'filios'. Silly me, confusing singular and plural accusative cases.

Showoff.

[Straha]

I would have to give it to Rome only because of the home ground advantage. I would think that if Rome could survive against China that Rome would probably look to return the favor to China.

Understatement of your life. Rome went so far as to send a legion to track down and kill Hannibal, went so far as to go into eastern Turkey to surrond his hut and call him out. I could just imagine what they would do to an empire almost, if not bigger, as big as theirs that even tries to attack them.

Now there is also the possiblity that Rome after winning would laugh its ass off at china for wasting so many men over such a long distance and leave it as that.

[HemlockGrey]

Showoff.

Who, me?

[Patrick Degan]

A Chinese army would have to fight its way through the Hindus and the Persians before even reaching the easternmost provinces of the Empire. Assuming that they manage this, the surviving army would be considerably weakened by the previous conflicts and I would not expect their logistical trains would either catch up with the troops or even survive, so they would probably attempt to seize the nearest sizeable town for replenishments. The legions would quickly surround the town and establish siege lines and it would be a mere question of time.

[StarshipTitanic]

I'd imagine the Parthians joining the Chinese army instead of fighting it. After a few years of a stalemate, the Chinese get pissed and mutiny, perhaps establishing a small state behind Parthian lines. It's destroyed by the Parthians and the Chinese collapse due to the loss of such a huge army.

[CmdrWilkens]

The Roman means of raising and maintaining an army was possibly the most sophisticated and enviable method of history excepting the Mongols. The professional soldier and his leading Centurions were well disciplined, trained, supplied, and led...for the most part. Incompetency in the upper command echelons is what led to the German defeat in the Teutonburg and excepting that one can well expect the Romans match up as better than virtually every army in ancient history even, possibly, including the Mongols. China simply does not have theorganizational expertise to defeat the might of the Empire at its height under Augustus (assuming we are pre AD9 or that Quintus Varus was never placed in command of Germany Beyond the Rhine).

[kheegster]

I don't know much of the Chinese army in that era ( the ancient Chinese military is considerably less well known than the Romans), but the terracota warriors found in Xian gives a pretty good picture of Chinese armies of that time. I doubt that Chinese armies are as professional than the Roman legions at its height, but if nothing else it had enormous strength in numbers even in that time....battles were routinely fought involving tens, or even hundreds of thousands of men.

But in this scenario, I don't think the Chinese army holds a chance in hell in invading Europe...even in this era cross-continental invasions are a logistical nightmare, so it's bound to be far worse for them.

[Stuart Mackey]

I don't know much of the Chinese army in that era ( the ancient Chinese military is considerably less well known than the Romans), but the terracota warriors found in Xian gives a pretty good picture of Chinese armies of that time. I doubt that Chinese armies are as professional than the Roman legions at its height, but if nothing else it had enormous strength in numbers even in that time....battles were routinely fought involving tens, or even hundreds of thousands of men.

But in this scenario, I don't think the Chinese army holds a chance in hell in invading Europe...even in this era cross-continental invasions are a logistical nightmare, so it's bound to be far worse for them.

Oh the Chinese could on occation put a good army in the feild, but their logistics was nothing like what the Romans could manage. Thus the effect is, given other nations permission to use their territory, chinese army = (time+desease+starvation+desertion) = clusterfuck

[ArmorPierce]

The Romans would definately win because of the logistic problems that the Chinese would have experienced.