UFC gambles on untested Lesnar

[Wanderer]

I might actually watch this

In the spring of 2000, Brock Lesnar was a University of Minnesota senior, just two weeks and a handful of workouts away from the NCAA Division I wrestling tournament.

Today, the 30-year-old Lesnar finds himself in a similar situation as he trains for his match against former Ultimate Fighting Championship heavyweight champion Frank Mir in the most publicized debut in UFC history.

The former “Next Big Thing” of pro wrestling has become ultimate fighting's next gigantic question mark, a 1-0 fighter with 69 seconds of ring experience thrown into the deep end of a shark-infested pool.

Whether he's in over his head remains to be seen, but the reason he's being billed as the semi-main event of UFC 81 on Feb. 2 in Las Vegas is because of his fame as a former World Wrestling Entertainment champion.

The success of this card hinges on people buying the novelty of a former WWE champion fighting a former UFC champion. The idea, if it clicks, is to rally the UFC fan base to want to see the fake wrestler get smashed, and for the pro wrestling audience, to whom the show is being heavily marketed, to tune in out of curiosity to see how one of its all-time tough guys can do.

Lesnar knows his role is to antagonize UFC fans, as he did in dismissing Mir's submission ability in a commercial. Lesnar noted upon signing with UFC a few months ago that when it comes to promoting a fight, he "learned from the best."

"I've got eight workouts left (as of late last week) and I'm very excited for February 2," Lesnar said. "I've got it all to lose and I've got everything to gain. Frank Mir doesn't have the same kind of pressure."

Lesnar knows the knee-jerk reaction is to say a WWE champion would get destroyed in an MMA match. He's heard all the wise cracks: No scripts. No dance partners allowing you to do your moves. With his big muscles, he'll gas out in a minute of real fighting. But what makes this match different from a Kimbo Slice-type of freak show is that those on the inside are even more intrigued than those on the outside.

Oddsmakers are heavily favoring Lesnar, likely because they think people will bet on him because of name recognition as opposed to handicapping the match based on who they think has the best chance of winning.

It would be a mistake to dismiss Lesnar as an over-muscled fake; he's arguably the best all-around athlete of any heavyweight in UFC history. Certainly nobody can match his combination of strength, explosive power, and speed to go along with his 265-pound fighting weight.

After one week of training with Lesnar in late 2006, MMA coach Pat Miletich, a former UFC champion, came away impressed. "In a year, there won't be a man alive who can beat him," Miletich said. Lesnar has spent the last 18 months training at Greg Nelson's Minnesota Martial Arts Academy in Minneapolis, concentrating on striking and jiu- jitsu. He often works out with the national champion University of Minnesota wrestling team -- in particular, Cole Konrad, the 2008 Olympic hopeful who was NCAA heavyweight champion the past two years. Suffice to say, Lesnar gets a regular reality check of where his wrestling stands.

"I'm going to stay in his face and control him," Lesnar said. "I can guarantee I'll be in better condition than Mir."

But will tremendous athletic gifts and 18 months of training help Lesnar overcome a lack of MMA experience and an opponent with enough submission skills to finish even ground experts? People will be watching to see.

Lesnar's pro wrestling fame has allowed him to start as one of MMA's highest-paid fighters. The downside to that fame is it forces him into the spotlight. While most people with his potential would be brought along slowly and shielded from such a dangerous opponents so early in his career, because of what he's getting paid, he has to be in a match like this one with a theme that will grab attention.

Lesnar's strengths as a wrestler were conditioning, physical power, takedown ability, and his ability to turn his opponents over. But outside of his workout partners, the only evidence anyone has seen of him as a fighter was his June 2 win over Min Soo Kim at the Los Angeles Coliseum.

Min Soo was a 1996 Olympic silver medalist in judo, so he was no slouch. But he has also had struggles adapting to MMA, with a 4-6 record. Lesnar did a quick takedown and showed unusually powerful short punches in quickly knocking out the Korean on the ground.

But the spot Lesnar put Min Soo -- on his back -- is the exact place Mir wants to be, working for an armbar or a triangle. Mir's most famous moment in UFC was an armbar from the bottom that broke Tim Sylvia's arm and won him the heavyweight title on June 19, 2004.

The question is, if Lesnar can connect from the top with his heavy artillery, how long does Mir have to get that submission before he's knocked silly? While Lesnar will have a significant size advantage over most UFC heavyweights, Mir, at 6-foot-4 and 250 pounds, will be slightly taller and nearly as heavy as Lesnar, and he does have a wrestling background, including a Nevada high school state championship. If he can keep his distance and avoid a takedown, he'll have a reach advantage, and while not a great striker, Mir has a huge experience edge in that aspect of the game.

"Frank Mir is a black belt in jiu jitsu," Lesnar said. "I've been training a lot in jiu jitsu, and a lot of jiu jitsu defense and a lot of striking and defense. My wrestling workouts have taken a back seat because I did that for 18 years." Lesnar says he has visualized this fight a thousand times and the only consistent thing is his hand being raised at the end.

"Anybody can get knocked out in this sport if you get hit with the right punch with the size of the gloves," he said. "I don't have a weak jaw, but if you get hit in the right spot, anybody can lose. You just try to lower the odds of being in that situation. If I can avoid that, I can win a lot of fights."

[Flagg]

So... A homosexual soap opera star is going to be in an actual fight.?

I should care about this why?

This merits being in N&P but Heath Ledger's untimely death doesn't?

I'm probably going to get bitched out by a mod for being a dicksnot, when?

[Vympel]

Hey, I agree, it doesn't belong in N&P.

[Havok]

So... A homosexual soap opera star is going to be in an actual fight.?

I should care about this why?

This merits being in N&P but Heath Ledger's untimely death doesn't?

I'm probably going to get bitched out by a mod for being a dicksnot, when?

I think the Heath Ledger thread got rolling in OT before it was started in N&P.

This is news, it's just not news that most people here care about.

[aerius]

Lesnar against a Frank Mir who is completely outclassed in today's UFC, yeah, I'm not impressed. Brandon Vera kicked Mir's ass in around a minute he's not anywhere close to being a top fighter himself. It's a goddamn publicity stunt fight. Fuck me, I don't know what's worse, this, or watching Tim Sylvia's boring ass fights, at least there's a chance Big Nog will beat the shit out of Timmy and make the fight something less than a complete waste.

[weemadando]

I'm putting down my predictions for the MMA world in 2008.

A few in here relate to this topic so I thought I'd revive the old MMA thread concept.

1 - On Fans
The "hardcore" MMA fans will finally wake up and realise that the promoters in the US know that their market isn't people who want to see GSP put on a technical show-case. But is in fact in matches where a spuriously talented fighter like Tommy Speer (yes I'm Australian and thus automatically biased against him) who's most advanced technique is the hammerfist or the recent Liddell vs Silva fight where the most technical it became at any point was that they went with the looping over-hand left, rather than right. I'm not saying that there's any problem with these particular styles of fighting (hell - they're fairly effective given the records of people like Liddell and Hughes), but too many MMA fans (particularly those on sites like Sherdog) seem to think that the average joe watching the UFC gives a crap about Fedor [or Chowder if you prefer - I know I do], who they have still probably never heard of.


2 - On the fighters [Yes it's UFC centric because that's the only thing that actually gets broadcast here and our netspeeds are so terrible and bandwidth caps so lo that getting other events via the net is an iffy proposition)
Serra vs GSP will confirm that Serra is a genuine talent, but given GSP's recent performances will still result in a Serra loss.

Chris Leben, Melvin Guillard and other jack-arses will still keep getting fights due to their marketability.

Tim Sylvia will get a fan, and maybe even some respect finally - but won't get the belt.

Brock Lesnar will get a road to a title match paved with out-of-shape, returning from injury or completely outclassed opponents.

Anderson Silva will retain the belt vs Henderson and have to defend it from Rich Franklin. In Ohio. Again.

Kurt Pellegrino will finally get back onto televised PPV card.

Kimbo Slice vs Hoong Man Choi vs Butterbean in a triple threat match being held in Nicuragua will be announced by Elite XC.


3 - On the business
A weekly "Fight Night" type program will be established (not necessarily by the UFC). Given the ever growing number of fighters entering MMA, someone (maybe even a major US network without a MMA promotion on board) is going to bite the bullet and produce a show featuring some emerging talents in a non-TUF/reality show format.

Dana White will announce that they have signed a NFL/NHL star of choice. Or maybe a NASCAR driver.

Joe Rogan will spontaneously combust with enthusiasm during a PPV while discussing a Rampage vs Ortiz title match.

The IFL's new structure will lead to a much bigger commercial success for them.

Elite XC will implode following the afore-mentioned triple threat match.

The mooted "multi-sport night" in California will be the single biggest sporting gate at whatever venue it ends up being held at (if it happens).

[Stravo]

Now forgive me for my ignorance but I stopped watching sports like wrestling back when I was 12 but is Ultimate fighting fake like the WWF and RAW or is it actual fighting with guys really hurting each other and if it is what the hell are the rules because setting loose two guys on each other no holds barred sounds kinda boring as weird as that sounds.

[TheFeniX]

Now forgive me for my ignorance but I stopped watching sports like wrestling back when I was 12 but is Ultimate fighting fake like the WWF and RAW or is it actual fighting with guys really hurting each other and if it is what the hell are the rules because setting loose two guys on each other no holds barred sounds kinda boring as weird as that sounds.

UFC is a venue for MMA(Mixed Martial Arts). It's real fighting. It was originally based on "no holds barred." In fact, the original UFC had no rules to speak of. Hitting to the groin was "frowned upon," but not illegal. It has been reorganized in later years into a professional fight organization with judges and is recognized by gaming commissions.

Anyways, the rules vary from organization to organization, but UFC rules can be found here.

Some fights can be boring, some can be awesome, but like most sports: many fights (games, whatever) lie somewhere in between.

For a simple explanation, MMA is a combination of boxing, Kick-boxing/Muay Ti, wrestling/Ju-Jitsu, and occasionally some Judo or other martial art is brought into the cage. Some fighters love to just throw leather, some like to work from the clinch, some like to take other fighters down to the ground and either pound them out or submit them. And then there's fighters who love to do it all and who will make life miserable for the poor son-of-a-bitch across from them in the cage/ring.

If you have Spike TV, check out some of the fights. "UFC Unleashed" shows re-runs of older and newer fights and sometimes they'll re-show a UFC that was on Spike for free.

[Natorgator]

UFC is pretty cool to watch for the most part, except when you get a shoe-boxer who puts his opponent in some kind of crazy hold and holds them there for the duration of the match. That shit gets old.

That all being said, Lesnar is a mean, huge motherfucker and I'm pretty interested to see what he will do. He's a terrific athlete.

[Zadius]

Now forgive me for my ignorance but I stopped watching sports like wrestling back when I was 12 but is Ultimate fighting fake like the WWF and RAW or is it actual fighting with guys really hurting each other and if it is what the hell are the rules because setting loose two guys on each other no holds barred sounds kinda boring as weird as that sounds.

Yeah, it's a real fight with minimal rules. It actually has an interesting history. UFC started out as a competition to determine the effectiveness of various martial arts, so they pitted karate vs. boxing, or wrestling vs. jiu-jitsu and so on. It didn't take long for fighters to realize they needed to cross-train multiple disciplines if they wanted to have an edge. Most fighters now train a combination of wrestling, jiu-jitsu, boxing, and muay thai.

[aerius]

Even though it's Pride FC and not UFC, this is the fight I always show people when they ask me about MMA.

Takanori Gomi vs. Nick Diaz

The UFC uses an octagonal cage instead of a ring, and there's some rules differences, but the idea is the same, beat the shit out of the other guy.

[Joker]

After reading about and watching some of these fighters on youtube who fight for the UFC, I must say that Lesnar is going to get murdered.

He's an actor. A big strong, sterioded actor, but an actor none-the-less.

[Chardok]

After reading about and watching some of these fighters on youtube who fight for the UFC, I must say that Lesnar is going to get murdered.

He's an actor. A big strong, sterioded actor, but an actor none-the-less.

Err...did you see his previous fight? Lesnar is a monster, not an actor. It's going to be a good fight, especially if he takes it seriously.

[Joker]

The last guy he fought had 4 wins and 6 loses.

I wonder what the next guys record looks like?

[aerius]

I wonder what the next guys record looks like?

Records by themselves don't matter, there are guys in the UFC with 15-1, 19-2, or even 18-0 records who got that way because all they do is fight people who aren't in the top 10, or even the top 20. As soon as they run into the top fighters they get clobbered. Look up Chris Leben, Josh Koscheck, and Mike Swick among others, they ran up impressive looking records only to get beaten silly when they ran into "A" level fighters.

Frank Mir may be 10-3, but that means jack since his last win over a top 10 opponent was nearly 4 years ago, since then he's beaten no one of note and had his ass beat by fighters who aren't even in the top 10. If Brock beats him it means nothing, if he beats Brock then it more or less means Lesnar is a nobody.

[Damaramu]

After reading about and watching some of these fighters on youtube who fight for the UFC, I must say that Lesnar is going to get murdered.

He's an actor. A big strong, sterioded actor, but an actor none-the-less.

A little uninformed, hmm?

Swiped from another site:

Brock Lesnar was raised on a farm in Webster, South Dakota. He took up weightlifting in grade school, and got into amateur wrestling in high school. His senior year, he recorded an undefeated record of 33-0. Up next for Lesnar was college, and he chose the small Bismarck Junior College in North Dakota over other prospects. Lesnar immediately made a name for himself, winning the heavyweight division in the North Dakota State University's annual Bison Open Tournament in 1997. Lesnar, representing Bismarck in the tournament, defeated Brent Boeschans from the University of Minnesota, which was an upset given what a powerhouse the University of Minnesota was in the amateur wrestling world. The next year, Lesnar again won the Bison Open, and also became the NJCAA (National Junior College Athletic Association) wrestling champion in the heavyweight division. Lesnar's life would change however when Bismarck Junior College was forced to cut its wrestling program due to financial reasons after the 1997-98 season. Lesnar was quickly recruited by the University of Minnesota, and transferred schools in order to continue his wrestling career. He'd amassed an impressive 56-3 record in two years with Bismarck.

It didn't take Lesnar long to make a name for himself as a Minnesota Gopher. He went 24-1 his first year in Minnesota, his only loss coming against Trent Hynek from the University of Minnesota's rival, Iowa State. He also won the Big Ten title for Minnesota, ending Iowa State's 25-year winning streak at that tournament. Iowa State would get revenge at the NCAA tournament however. Lesnar lost in the finals by 3-2 decision to Stephen Neal of Cal State-Bakersfield, enabling Iowa State to win the tournament overall. Despite a successful season (Big Ten title, runner-up at NCAA tournament, All American), Lesnar wasn't satisfied. He wanted the NCAA title.

In 2000, Lesnar continued to impress. He posted a 26-1 record (his sole loss came against Wes Hand from Iowa State) and was ranked #1 in the Big Ten. He went on to the NCAA tournament where he dominated the opposition en route to realizing a dream and becoming the NCAA Heavyweight Champion. Ironically enough, he defeated Iowa State's Wes Hand in the finals of the tournament.

Lesnar graduated from the University of Minnesota in 2000, ending a stellar amateur wrestling career. He'd gone 50-2 in two years in Minnesota, making him 106-5 overall in four years of college. He won the NCAA heavyweight title, and was a two-time All American. Brock was courted by several NFL football teams after graduation and was invited to tryout camps.

[Joker]

I wonder what the next guys record looks like?

Records by themselves don't matter, there are guys in the UFC with 15-1, 19-2, or even 18-0 records who got that way because all they do is fight people who aren't in the top 10, or even the top 20. As soon as they run into the top fighters they get clobbered. Look up Chris Leben, Josh Koscheck, and Mike Swick among others, they ran up impressive looking records only to get beaten silly when they ran into "A" level fighters.

Frank Mir may be 10-3, but that means jack since his last win over a top 10 opponent was nearly 4 years ago, since then he's beaten no one of note and had his ass beat by fighters who aren't even in the top 10. If Brock beats him it means nothing, if he beats Brock then it more or less means Lesnar is a nobody.

I agree whole heartedly with you. Lesnar looks to be a big name that they are going to bring in for promotion purposes only.

Perhaps for big business sake only they are trying to get the wrestling fans on board with the UFC fans. Because they realize that the wrestling gig is over and done with.

[Havok]

Wrestling (WWE) is doing just fine. UFC is the company that needs the boost.

[Darth Fanboy]

Swiped from another site:

Link to the article please? It looks interesting although whomever wrote it failed to realize that Minnesota and Iowa State aren't in the same wrestling conference.

[Joker]

From the looks of what I see, the UFC is doing ok. Looks like most of the other MMA shows are tanking.

[CmdrWilkens]

Swiped from another site:

Link to the article please? It looks interesting although whomever wrote it failed to realize that Minnesota and Iowa State aren't in the same wrestling conference.

It looks like the writer may have just appended "State" since he states that Iowa State won the NCAA when it was Iowa. In other words remove the appendage "state" and the article makes sense as Iowa is in the Big 10 and did win the NCAA Div 1 that year.

[brianeyci]

Records by themselves don't matter, there are guys in the UFC with 15-1, 19-2, or even 18-0 records who got that way because all they do is fight people who aren't in the top 10, or even the top 20. As soon as they run into the top fighters they get clobbered. Look up Chris Leben, Josh Koscheck, and Mike Swick among others, they ran up impressive looking records only to get beaten silly when they ran into "A" level fighters.

Frank Mir may be 10-3, but that means jack since his last win over a top 10 opponent was nearly 4 years ago, since then he's beaten no one of note and had his ass beat by fighters who aren't even in the top 10. If Brock beats him it means nothing, if he beats Brock then it more or less means Lesnar is a nobody.

I don't know anything about MMA, but how do you tell who's good without looking at their record? Their title?

It's an interesting question because it answers the age old question of who has the better martial art. I know, it is "mixed," and I know there's rules like no eye gouging and stomping so can't really compare to a real life fight, but you make it sound like there's a science beyond who's heavier and who's won more in seeing who's the best fighter.

Do A level fighters have "bad" days where they can lose to scrubs?

[Zadius]

I don't know anything about MMA, but how do you tell who's good without looking at their record? Their title?

Their record is more than just wins and losses, you can look at who they have beaten. If a guy is 18-0 but 90% of his opponents have losing records, then his 18-0 isn't as impressive as a 20-3 record against stiff competition.

It's an interesting question because it answers the age old question of who has the better martial art. I know, it is "mixed," and I know there's rules like no eye gouging and stomping so can't really compare to a real life fight, but you make it sound like there's a science beyond who's heavier and who's won more in seeing who's the best fighter.

There's no science, but if you follow the sport for awhile you just begin to have a sense for who's good. Frank Mir is a former champion, but he was in a brutal motorcycle accident and he hasn't looked the same since. He's slower now, and he's looked downright terrible as of late.

Do A level fighters have "bad" days where they can lose to scrubs?

It can happen. There is a well known factor called the 'puncher's chance'.

[TheFeniX]

Zadius is pretty much on the money.

You also have to factor in "Golden Boys." Fighters like Kimbo Slice. Sure, the guy might have a great career in MMA, but EliteXC seems to be scared about putting him up against any fighter that could be labeled something other than "Punching Bag." His next fight is against Tank Abbot. Sure, Abbot was a mean fighter back before the sport was rounded out, but wasn't he like 0-8 this year (or something around that)?

And even losing to top-tier fighters isn't a big mark against a fighter, depending on how the fight went. Like most sports it's not cut and dry. There's numerous different rankings for each weight class and even more arguments about how they are ranked and who is ranked where.

But, MMA has a lot more upsets than many other fighting organizations (from what I've seen). No matter how tough you are, getting hit solid on the chin or the ear is likely to put you out with those measly 4 oz. gloves they use. Sure, the same thing can happen in boxing, but those 16 oz gloves are much more forgiving.

[NeoGoomba]

If I remember Abbot from 90's UFC fights, his style could have been summed up as "Keep Punching at Head-Fu". I'm not surprised that he's crashing and burning now.

Bring back Oleg Tarktarov and Dan Sevren in a geriatric match goddammit!