Well, well...

[weemadando]

And before any of you accuse me of using a "back door fallacy", I'm not.

I'll make it clear in the most simple means possible.

1. The loss of life did sicken me.
2. The way the media handled it was fucking ridiculous.
3. I laughed, not only at the medias coverage of it, but at the reactions of a room full of people (rougly 30 or so, who were watching the coverage with me). Among them were a number of Americans who also expressed similar sentiments.
4. I cheered because so many of my guesses and predictions came out as true. This is in regards to targets, who was responsible and the after-effects.
5. I don't condone terrorism on any level. Be it by an independant group, or state sponsored - but its inevitable use on such a high-profile target that has been expecting a hit for years was made amusing by the sheer shock elicited by the actions.

So to sum up. Yes I laughed and cheered, but not at the death of innocents, but at the event.

[salm]

laughing and cheering at an act that causes 3000 deaths (deaths assumed to that point of time even aroun 20 000) is fucked up. just as fucked up as cheering and laughing if us bombers carpet bombed bagdad

Laughing and cheering at the telecast. Re-read my original post.

Did any other non-Americans watch the CNN telecast? It was pathetic, truly atrocious. I've already said that I felt sorry for people affected by it. but that doesn't change my reactions.

Call me insensitive if you want, but I'm not. I understand quite well what many of you must have been feeling. But I wasn't feeling that. Sue me.

actually you wrote "while watching the telecast" which i didnt understand as "laughing at the telecast"

allright then, go hunt some trolls!

[Zaia]

So to sum up. Yes I laughed and cheered, but not at the death of innocents, but at the event.

Well, darling, since "the event" as you call it WAS the death of innocents, I fail to see your case. Sorry.

[weemadando]

Ted, I don't know you in real life, so I'm just words on a screen to you, but for fuck's sake, Anders, that's me you're talking about. My aunt and my two uncles were unbelievably close to being part of the rubble, and you were sitting at home cheering at your fucking screen while I was wondering if my cousin was going to have to come live with me because he'd have no parents left. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

FUCK YOU.

Just because it hurts more when we lose our own doesn't mean that we don't mourn for the fallen from other countries. It's just so much easier for you to think of us that way, I suppose, but I'm sorry, that's not really who we are.

Issues with the press and their coverage I can understand; your bullshit I cannot. I'm not talking about military strategies and their brilliance, I'm talking about the reality of thousands of bodies lying in ashen remains and you two brazenly, heartlessly, sickeningly cheering for that reality.

Look, I'm sorry if I am being "insensitive", I won't try to understand what its like to be so unsure of people fates in the face of such an event. How many times do I have to make it clear that the loss of life appauls me?

My reactions might sicken some and make them angry, so be it. Its done and over with.

And I'm sorry Zaia, but I was attempting to be objective in my analysis of the incident. If it was a little cold, then I again apologise for offense caused, but my level of detatchment is due to seperation from the matter emotionally, politically and geographically.

[Ted]

Zaia:

Have you seen pictures of rivers flowing with blood and limbs? Where you can cross the river just by walking on legs and arms?

Trust me, that is a lot worse than seeing a pile of rubble.

I've seen a man jump from his 20th floor apartment and land only 50 feet away. My thought was "Cool, so thats how it looks".

You know why people cry Zaia?

It is because they have a short grieving span. They grive not more, nor less, but the same as others, they just grieve quickly, and move over it.

The 4 plane attack on the US was nothing.

The deadliest attack on Germany in World War II caused a firestorm that killed hundreds, if not thousands, burning thousands more, and destroying most of Hamburg.

Yet that was repeated over and over again.

And the V-1 bombs.

Vengeance weapon mk.1

They killed thousands, destroyed over a million homes, hundreds of schools, of churches, of hospitals.

Compared to those, Sept 11 was a pansy shoot.

Done by pseudo-professionals trained by the CIA.

[Zaia]

Look, I'm sorry if I am being "insensitive", I won't try to understand what its like to be so unsure of people fates in the face of such an event. How many times do I have to make it clear that the loss of life appauls me?

You can say that the loss of life is appalling to you, but the fact that you actually cheered makes me ill. We've talked about this before, you know I feel that way about it. You think, I feel. That's the way we are. Usually we meet somewhere in the middle and can understand each other. I just can't do that this time; things struck me way too close to home.

And I'm sorry Zaia, but I was attempting to be objective in my analysis of the incident. If it was a little cold, then I again apologise for offense caused, but my level of detatchment is due to seperation from the matter emotionally, politically and geographically.

Politically and geographically, sure, I can see that. But emotionally? By nature I am an empathetic person, so when I hear news from abroad involving places where I have friends, my first thought is about their safety and the safety of their loved ones. And NYC is so fucking big that you can meet any random person on the East Coast (where Ewo and I both are living, in case you've forgotten) and, chances are, they have family and/or friends there. How would you have felt if you had found out later that I had lost my aunt or uncle? Would you have felt badly for cheering, or would you stick to your justifications? I don't know. Do you? Maybe you're perfectly right to have the reaction you did, but since I live my life through my feelings, I cannot for the life of me conceptualize of what you speak.

Zaia:
Have you seen pictures of rivers flowing with blood and limbs? Where you can cross the river just by walking on legs and arms?
Trust me, that is a lot worse than seeing a pile of rubble.
I've seen a man jump from his 20th floor apartment and land only 50 feet away. My thought was "Cool, so thats how it looks".
You know why people cry Zaia?

Ted, don't patronize me like I'm a fucking child. You have no idea what I've dealt with in my life, so shut the fuck up. You have no idea what I've seen or not seen, so don't assume that you've had it worse, ok? Get off your soap box and realize that you are talking in the exact same manner as the 'glorified American' stereotype you despise so much. So what you write about is so much worse than everything else that's ever happened to anyone else? Isn't that how us self-centered, egotistical Americans get stereotyped? Isn't that why we 'had it coming'? Isn't it? So, you say my pain is stupid, but yours is ok because you can dig up information on some other examples of horrific bloodshed? Good for you. Did I ever say Sept. 11th was the first attack ever in the history of the world? No. Have I ever written about it, implying that I secretly thought that? No. Do I think it was the worst example of bloodshed ever? No. Did you bother to ask any of these things before assuming that you knew what I thought and felt? Of course not. That would require some thinking and not blind hatred.

How do you not see that you sound exactly like what you profess to hate the most about my country?

I AM NOT COMPARING SEPTEMBER 11TH TO ANY OTHER ATTACKS IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. In its own right, it was a horrible occurence. I have NEVER said that it is more or less devestating than any other attacks; I am saying that there were victims and they deserve respect and the people they left behind deserve compassion. That is all.

[haas mark]

I am not goin through 5 pages of response right now.. all I have to say is that if it were connected to me in some way, I would feel horrible, but I would get over it.

Since it is not connected to me, it is a tragic event, but doesn't phase me the way it does those who had others involved. I am not saying I don't care, I am just apahetic towards it all.

This is not to say that other events are just as bad, not to say that peopel aren't hurt, because I know they are. Many of my friends are basically surrounded by death.. and you all know that is a hard thing for me to watch. But when I have no connection to it, direct or indirect mmediately, I feel nothing.

As far as expecting people to admit not feeling anything on the 9/11 thing, I admitted it that day, no less. In fact, less than two hours after it happened. Same goes for the Columbia incident. The Columbine incident. The Cerro Grande fire. Basically many of the tragedies that have occured in our nation's history in the past few years. I don't feel on a large scale like that because I am never connected. I am never connected because I have very few ties to my family, and very few of my friends are much older than me.

With all due respect, I feel bad that it hapened, but I don't feel sad about what happened. I knew no one in that respect.

As dar as Spanky's comment on how it looked to see a man jump out of a window, I honestly would probably think the same thing, regret it later, and then forget about it until it got jogged in my memory.

I honestly have once had to deal with a death in the family. Once. And it hurt, and I hardly knew the man that died. But it hurt nonetheless, so I know the pain of having a loved one die. I can only imagine how much it woulf hurt to have someone I know die in such a tragedy... There are six people I would go into deep depression if they ever died any time soon. I would not be able to handle it... I would be gone for days, if not weeks.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

In all honesty, I think we should just lock this thread.

Maybe even delete it. We don't need this.

[Zaia]

In all honesty, I think we should just lock this thread.

Maybe even delete it. We don't need this.

Why? Because people are speaking about how they truly feel? We don't like some of it so we just delete it like it was never said? Doesn't work that way, Spank. I can't speak for anyone else, but I stand by my words. And I think it's something that needs to be discussed.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Nevermind, then.

I thought it was just going to go nowhere but down, and cause nothing but negativity between members. Stuff like this can stay with someone, casuing grudges and hostility.

But nevermind.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Okay, this is going to sound strange coming from me, but is there anyone else out there completely apathetic towards the whole Columbia space shutle thing? I know it's weird coming from me due to my empathy issues, but i seriously don't feel anything for these people. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy the event, but I don't care. Doesn't phase me a bit. And you don't think I have fubar morals...

Yeah, it's sad that it happened and I tend to see it as a symptom of the general rot that afflicts NASA these days. But it's a risk the astronauts take every time they fly. It's understandable though. I suppose it's harder to get worked up about a tragedy that one doesn't experience first-hand. I was hit harder by the loss of my friend, who was killed in one of the many fatal traffic accidents that take place in the US each week, than I was by the destruction of the WTC.

[Robert Treder]

I too didn't feel badly about the Columbia. I wasn't happy that it blew up or anything; I just find it hard to make a big deal about 7 dead people, especially when they were so brave and well-prepared. They weren't the innocent victims of some madmen.
I was more touched by the 9/11 thing, seeing as they were innocent victims, and lots of them. But what the general public made that out to be was ludicrous.

I appreciate Verilon's honesty and courage. It takes brass balls to go against strong public opinion, and I respect that. I also respect and understand those who are emotional about these tragedies. I don't in any way mean to say that their feelings are wrong. It's just that I don't share them. I'm sorry if this offends any of your delicate sensibilities.

[Drewcifer]

Damn my head cold, sinuses full of concrete, should have gone to bed (like a friend suggested) but no, I had to read this thread. Forgive me if I make little sense...

- Columbia: sad for the families, honored by the heroes, and worried about the space program, but moving on.

- 9/11 shook me to my core. I knew before the bad things happen, but I had never experienced the emotional side of tragedy on that scale. I know thousands, if not millions die every day around the world, from malnitrition to war.

But seeing the jumpers from the WTC stopped my heart. How bad would it have to be inside to knowingly and purposely jump 80-90 stories to your death?

Seeing trained professionals, soliders, firemen, police, running in pure blind terror from the collapsing towers, running from death itself.

THe Pentagon and Flight 93 moved me as well, but I have some very persoanl attachements to NYC, and to the WTC. My sister lives in NYC, and I make yearly trips to see her. I went in 2000 and we almost skipped going to the WTC observation deck because she's done all the tourist stuff years ago and "because I can always go next year"...

I have a picture of myself standing on the deck on top outside. I have a 'squashed penny' kitsch tourista sovenier of the towers. I still have my ticket stub.

I visited my sister in October 2001. I spent an entire day walking around Ground Zero to pay my respects, and see it for myself (because on a certain level, I still didn't believe it really happened). The air stank of concrete dust and burnt plastic. There was still dust every where and burnt wreckage hanging off of buildings that were adjacent to the towers.

I saw grown men cry like babies. I saw a pile of rubble several stories high, where the remains of innocents were still laying. I saw the skeletal remains of one tower still standing. It was like walking down into hell.

I know that terrible things happen and will happen again. Rivers of blood have flowed on every continent. BUt 9/11 changed me, and still does. And although no one I know, even by several degrees of seperation, died that day, but I still feel like part of me died on that day as well.


OK, somewhat pointless rambling done. Sorry if it's out of place, had to add my two cents.

g'night

[Dalton]

Hello.

My name is Rob.

I live in New York. I am only a few minutes east of what is technically the City, and only about half an hour from Manhattan, where my mother works and my father often visits.

Maybe Ted has a point, with the dead Rwandans and all the other atrocities.

But what he fails to realize is that that didn't have as much as an emotional impact on us simply because we were so distant from it.

I live half an hour away from the gravesite of three thousand people. That in itself is a sobering thought. The fact that on any given day I could drive into New York City and see the empty pit grates on my heart.

Do you know why?

Because it was close to home, it was right fucking *there*.

The media frenzy itself was offensive, but the incident is not something I'm willing to forget easily. I don't mind you folks who are apathetic to the whole thing, who don't really care. That's your perogative.

I almost lost my aunt. I spent HOURS worrying whether or not my parents were safe. I too saw grown men cry. That's what sticks to you. The self-imposed isolationism, the "it could never happen to us" feeling that most Americans have was quite shattered that day. You don't think it could happen to you, or near you, and when it does you damn sure are gonna feel it.

And I don't think *we* as a people had it coming to us. The government, maybe. It's time to separate the American people from the American government once and for all. Many of us don't agree with our government's actions, so when you condemn Washington, please don't condemn Rob Dalton, an average citizen who sees his government as a corrupt and wasteful entity.

Columbia didn't hit me near as hard. Sure, it was sad, but not as much. But it was still heartrending, as it was yet another blow to our dreams of space. And it was a guaranteed news story. Things like an avalanche out west don't really make national headlines, so it's hard to feel bad about things you don't know about.

It's also hard to feel bad about things that don't affect you. That's a simple fact of life; it's human nature.

But I think compassion is also human nature; I found offensive the flat-out cruelty and rudeness that Ted displayed in this thread, and to a lesser degree Ando.

*shrug* It's been well over a year and a half and I don't feel the pain as sharply anymore. But to see people so callous, well, that does hurt a little.

Anyway, I bid you all to cease the flames, to let this thread just die so I won't have to lock it or split it. I don't want to have to do that, but I will if I have to.

That's all I have to say about that.

-----
Rob Dalton
American
New Yorker

[Ted]

I live 20 minutes away from one of the largest grave yards in the city, home to tens of thousands of corpses, over the years.

The space shuttle "disaster" was the result of political gambling.

The Challenger disaster was caused by politicans forcing NASA to go ahead with the launches, even though NASA complained about the lack of money, and the saftey standards. For years, NASA has been delaying saftey and maintanence checks because of having no money.

Columbia would not have happend if NASA had enough money to do a complete and thourough check every time.

[Dalton]

I live 20 minutes away from one of the largest grave yards in the city, home to tens of thousands of corpses, over the years.

Yeah. Yeah. I can see how that's just as heartrending as mounds of fiery rubble full of body parts.

The space shuttle "disaster" was the result of political gambling.

The Challenger disaster was caused by politicans forcing NASA to go ahead with the launches, even though NASA complained about the lack of money, and the saftey standards. For years, NASA has been delaying saftey and maintanence checks because of having no money.

Columbia would not have happend if NASA had enough money to do a complete and thourough check every time.

I agree with this sentiment.

[haas mark]

My god, what a fucking can of worms I've opened! I thank you, whoever said they congratulate me on my honesty, but I also am going to say that you will very rarely find me to be dishonest, whether online or off.

As far as it hitting home, it is hard for anything to hit home for me, because I am not as involved in these sorts of things as most people, I don't live anywhere that something liek this would occur much. When I mentioned the Cerro Grande fire, that fire took out almost an entire city in New Mexico. That city was probably about 100 miles from where I live. That's just over an hour's drive. Did it phase me? Did I care? No.

I am severely surprised that I wasn't phased right off the bat. Really. I am not phased, I have fubar morals compared to the rest of you (have been flamed for them in the past) and I'm not flamed for this.. hmmmm

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't feel anything I am not connected to.

[Kuja]

Zaia:
Have you seen pictures of rivers flowing with blood and limbs? Where you can cross the river just by walking on legs and arms?
Trust me, that is a lot worse than seeing a pile of rubble.

Ted, shut the fuck up. This has nothing to do with you and you're "Cool! Thousands of people are dead!" statement.

I've seen a man jump from his 20th floor apartment and land only 50 feet away. My thought was "Cool, so thats how it looks".

Red herring. STFU.

You know why people cry Zaia?
It is because they have a short grieving span. They grive not more, nor less, but the same as others, they just grieve quickly, and move over it.

Pull your head out of your fucking ass. What kind of grieving have you done? Have you ever been at work one moring, then find out your WHOLE FAMILY IS DEAD like so many 9/11 survivors?

The 4 plane attack on the US was nothing.
The deadliest attack on Germany in World War II caused a firestorm that killed hundreds, if not thousands, burning thousands more, and destroying most of Hamburg.
Yet that was repeated over and over again.
And the V-1 bombs.
Vengeance weapon mk.1
They killed thousands, destroyed over a million homes, hundreds of schools, of churches, of hospitals.
Compared to those, Sept 11 was a pansy shoot.
Done by pseudo-professionals trained by the CIA.

IT WAS WAR, YOU FUCKING ASSHAT!!! ARE YOU SO DENSE AS YOU CAN'T DIFFERENCIATE BETWEEN THE WARTIME BOMBING OF A CITY AND AN UNPROVOKED ATTACK ON A CIVILIAN TARGET?!

[Dalton]

I asked to cut down on the flamage...this is a very sensitive subject but screaming about it won't help.

Thread locked; go cool off.