Be warned, its one on the war in Iraq, but does not really deal with whether or not to go to war.
It's between me and one "April Duchess" on another group.
I should note that I have a not-very good reputation on this board as a debater....I kind of used a mirror group to test out various debating tactics with various degrees of sucess...but in the end, most of them became extremely pissed at me.
She also has a personal grudge against me because I did not pray for her ailing aunt...or grandmother...anyway, instead I gave her the advice to be with her in her final hours and to make them special...if she pulls through, great! if not, then she would have had her last moments with her be happy ones and all that, and I hoped to for the best...she took an extreme offence to this (she is devoutly christian). I still don't understand her reaction...
It all started when she posted a letter from someone else on the group:
I responded thusly:I didn't know if any of you guys had seen this, but wanted to share it with you.
February 24, 2003
An Open Letter To The Hollywood Bunch
Ok let's just say for a moment you bunch of pampered, overpaid, unrealistic children had your way and the U.S.A. didn't go into Iraq.
Let's say that you really get your way and we destroy all our nuclear weapons and stick daisies in our gun barrels and sit around with some
white wine and cheese and pat ourselves on the back, so proud of what
we've done for world peace.
Let's say that we cut the military budget to just enough to keep the National Guard on hand to help out with floods and fires.
Let's say that we close down our military bases all over the world and
bring the troops home, increase our foreign aid and drop all the trade
sanctions against everybody.
I suppose that in your fantasy world this would create a utopian world
where everybody would live in peace. After all, the great monster, the
United States of America, the cause of all the world's trouble would have disbanded it's horrible military and certainly all the other countries of the world would follow suit.
After all, they only arm themselves to defend their countries from the mean old U.S.A.
Why you bunch of pitiful, hypocritical, idiotic, spoiled mugwumps. Get your head out of the sand and smell the Trade Towers burning. Do you think that a trip to Iraq by Sean Penn did anything but encourage a wanton murderer to think that the people of the U.S.A. didn't have the nerve or the guts to fight him?
Barbra Streisand's fanatical and hateful rantings about George Bush makes about as much sense as Michael Jackson hanging a baby over a railing.
You people need to get out of Hollywood once in a while and get out into the real world. You'd be surprised at the hostility you would find out here.
Stop in at a truck stop and tell an overworked, long distance truck driver that you don't think Saddam Hussein is doing anything wrong.
Tell a farmer with a couple of sons in the military that you think the
United States has no right to defend itself.
Go down to Baxley, Georgia and hold an anti-war rally and see what the
folks down there think about you.
You people are some of the most disgusting examples of a waste of protoplasm I've ever had the displeasure to hear about.
Sean Penn, you're a traitor to the United States of America. You gave aid and comfort to the enemy. How many American lives will your little, "fact finding trip" to Iraq cost? You encouraged Saddam to think that we didn't have the stomach for war.
You people protect one of the most evil men on the face of this earth and won't lift a finger to save the life of an unborn baby. Freedom of choice you say?
Well I'm going to exercise some freedom of choice of my own. If I see any of your names on a marquee, I'm going to boycott the movie. I will
completely stop going to movies if I have to. In most cases it certainly wouldn't be much of a loss.
You scoff at our military who's boots you're not even worthy to shine. They go to battle and risk their lives so ingrates like you can live in
luxury.
The day of reckoning is coming when you will be faced with the undeniable truth that the war against Saddam Hussein is the war on terrorism.
America is in imminent danger. You're either for her or against her. There is no middle ground.
I think we all know where you stand.
What do you think?
God Bless America
Charlie Daniels
(Currently, I must state, that I have become neutral to the war again).I agree with the statements, but their was a flawed delivery. Here's what I suggest you should do in addition to/instead of what you wrote:
1. Provide evidence of Sadam's Evil
2. Show how demilitirization would effect the country in all the bad ways it would.
3. ram them with hundreds of sources, quotes, and as much evidence as you can gather to show them exactly how stupid they are.
Majin Gojira
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People in hollywood aren't exactly known for having higher brain functions...
She responded thusly:
To which I responded:As usual, you didn't actually read the letter, did you? I didn't write it. *rolls eyes*
Would you please STOP trying to be so darn irritating? You've been asked nicely, been told rudely and been banned from another list. {Editors note: actually 2, but who's coutning?}
WHY do you insist on acting like a jerk? You don't HAVE to!
*frustrated sigh*
She responded:I did read the letter. you just seem to be very touchy. If I wanted to be mean, I'd say something like this:
"This argument, while well meaning, is delivered poorly. It comes off more as a mindless rant. This would only have an intended affect on people who already agree with the stance presented. It would be summarily ignored by those who oppose it as utter tripe. Might I suggest..."
I'm blunt, and I was going for contructive critasism.
Majin Gojira
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I don't edit grammar or spelling. I edit concepts and ideas...which are really the core of any story.
Your constructive critisizm is wasted on anyone on the list, so why bother? CD wrote it and you're not gonna be able to enlighten him on how wrong he was to write it as he did, so please stop with the unecessarily argumentative posts? {editors note: all posts after her initial reply were taken to e-mail to avoid list-clutter...just shows how full of shit she really is}
She responded...April.
You brought it to the group. and to the mirror group where I was temporarily banned (7 days) . I responed. (and frankly, If you've done it anywhere else as well, it would show an extreme lack of netiquite on your part)
If you could provide me with CD's email, I would continue this conversation with him and leave you alone, and "enlighten" him on how to make a valid point presentable to the opposition, or those 'sitting on the fence', as it were. Just because you agree wholehartedly does not nessesitate a defensive response such as this.
Notice the Appeal to the Masses?That's your personal opinion and you're entitled to it. What you aren't entitle to is trying to start arguments. Please stop? And did you say you'd responded to the W'verse group? Your post isn't there. You've been temporarily banned from the place for just this type of behavior. Why don't you take Kyle's advice? Please? You CAN get along with people if you TRY.
I responded...because I like to.
She responded...in a rather long-winded fasion...I responded point-for-pointAm I not entitled to voice my opinion? that seems to be what your saying. if not, correct this.
I'm not trying to start arguments. By you responding, you're only fanning the flames.
I did not say I was going to respond to the Wverse group. If anything, In an email to another person, I pointed out your inherent abuse of Netiquite via spamming with the post itself.
I am taking Kyle's Advice, which is why this is an E-mail only discussion.
And (Evil mode) I don't get along well with people who do stupid things. (/evil Mode)
Majin Gojira
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Endless Rebuttel
I'm particlarly proud of the last part.So, you praise conformity? you've missed the other posts where I stated I agreed with the concepts, but felt the delivery is flawed. this point is crap.Do you not try to get to know the people on a list you post at? This letter by CD is exactly the kind of thing the guys like to read. Most of them, anyway. You seem to be the exception to every rule. Good for you, but do you have to flaunt it so flamboyantly? The true answer to that is a resounding no.the fact that you viewed the posts in question as a selfish need for attention shocks me. I mean, how? how could you make that leap?I'm fanning no flames. All I asked on the list was for everyone to ignore you and your desparate need to argue over every freakin' little thing in the universe. The rest has been emails between us only. Stop trying to make out like it's anything different.
{Editors note: the fact that she brings up her attempt to rally the troops is really a sign of how poor a debater she is...the full extent of which will be revealed shortly}
{editors note: notice how she missed my initial post completely!}These are the only two groups I posted the letter at because they are the only ones who, in my experience, would appreciate it, being the present or former soldiers that they are. So far, you're the only one who's had anything other than praise to say about the letter and how it made them feel.
Read: You must conform.
Well, at least you weren't spamming. good to hear.
{Editors note: Is she even reading my responses?}I need correct nothing because again, you don't seem to read what you're replying to. Quit acting like an injured party, it's a pathetically false performance.
Well duh, you didn't write it. If you could provide me with the address of the author, I'd be more than happy to take this up with him.
And don't use projection. I'm not the acting injured party. You're lashing out and acting as a false defensive.
Ok. AprilBe warned, Sam. You aren't the only one with an evil mode. Be thankful you haven't drawn mine out!
Shut up.
All you've done is scream "I'm Right" over and over again. You have not refuted a single point made in the original post. I really should have called you on it sooner. All you've done is give me this rightous indignation bullshit along with appeal to the masses fallacy. Prove your point...What is your point?
Majin Gojira
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Shit, that's a thick wall of ignorance...not the worsed I've seen...but still, it's pretty bad.
That shut her up for a full 4 days...and she responded like this
"Imperial Smackdown" as used here is an ultimate peice of information/attack that will utterly shock/cripple an opponent. Sorry if I abused or misused or missapropriated the term.Unfortunately, yahoo-mail cannot support pics, so I had to provide the links instead{editors note: Man, this is getting painfull to post here}She needed a further smackdown...and I had to repeat myself...again.I'll forgive you for the "shut up" line. God Bless you anyway.
It took me a little while to wrap my brain around this one, frankly, I considered this argument dead an burried considering the time between my previous mail and your response...and hopefully this will be the last one in this entire thread.
It appears that you:
A) Cannot counter any of my points
B) Disagree with them without any real backing, proof or reasoning.
If this is the case, well, I have a diagram to illustrate my point:
And as the final word in this thread which is truely run its course and fully completed, with no new information being added on either side:
Majin Gojira
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I'd say something about the blessing, but that would only prolong this thread beyond its course.
For some reason, that wasn't the final one...which I picked appart.
They were only pictures. Nothing rude nor crude aboutI ignored your links.
them. the last one is downright funny.
1. Ad Hominem is not appreciated.The blessing is meant as what it sounds like. I hope you have a nice life, just not at the expense of others which seems to be your goal.
2. Quote from a political cartoon seems oddly fitting
at this moment:
'What they mean: "To HELL with reality, To HELL with my inadbility to refute the facts supporting your position and proving [me] wrong, TO HELL WITH ALL OF YOU!!!"
When they Say: "I'll pray for you"'
April: either make a logical point or don't even bother to e-mail me again about this topic. This is getting mildly irksome.
Majin Gojira
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I'm tempted to use my Imperial Smackdown on the blessing...e-mail me again and I will not refrain from using it.
Well, I hope I meet some standard of approval or...at least get some pointers for some future debates...
I know that I didn't start well because I was trying to be too damn nice.