Turkey's Ocalan trial 'unfair'

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-12 05:08am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2842691.stm

Turkey's Ocalan trial 'unfair'
The European Court of Human Rights has condemned Turkey for violating the human rights of jailed Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan.
The court ruled that Ocalan did not receive a fair trial.

He is currently serving a life sentence in isolation on the prison island of Imrali.

Ocalan was originally sentenced to death in 1999 for his role in a 16-year guerrilla war against the Turkish authorities.

In October last year the death sentence was commuted to live in prison, with no chance of parole.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-12 05:19am

I'm sure Turkey will give a damn, after parts Europe stop arguing its not part of Europe. Of course, under EU human rights laws school detentions have been ruled illegal so I doubt Turkey will ever give a damn.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-12 05:25am

Sea Skimmer wrote:I'm sure Turkey will give a damn, after parts Europe stop arguing its not part of Europe.

Well, technically that's debatable. It's not a black or white situation. Geographically, at most, they're partially in Europe. Is iraq, that borders with them, also Europe?

Of course, under EU human rights laws school detentions have been ruled illegal so I doubt Turkey will ever give a damn.

The main reason he wasn't shot was their desire to please the E.U. They give a damn.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-12 06:03am

Colonel Olrik wrote:
The main reason he wasn't shot was their desire to please the E.U. They give a damn.

After what's happening over Cyprus? I don't think so. This is strike number two for the EU with Turkey.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-12 06:14am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:
The main reason he wasn't shot was their desire to please the E.U. They give a damn.
After what's happening over Cyprus? I don't think so. This is strike number two for the EU with Turkey.

We'll see about Cyprus. The worst thing that can happen, as far as the turkish cypriots are concerned, is the negotiations to fail and the greek side to join the E.U alone. The economical gap between the two sides would rise to even more overwhelming levels. The turkish cypriots want the reunification.

The turks are very patient. They made an error some months ago trying to pressure the E.U, namely with the U.S clumsy help (it was clumsy, the U.S, or any other country, has no right to speak about and criticize the internal matters of the E.U). They will wait for better times, like they did in the past.

Turkey can't move its frontiers, and can't change its natural commercial partners. Like Switzerland, or even the U.K, their fate is tied to the E.U, weather they like it or not.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-03-12 06:55am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:
The main reason he wasn't shot was their desire to please the E.U. They give a damn.
After what's happening over Cyprus? I don't think so. This is strike number two for the EU with Turkey.

The absolutely only reason they didn't shot Ocalan was to please the EU.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-12 07:43am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:
The main reason he wasn't shot was their desire to please the E.U. They give a damn.
After what's happening over Cyprus? I don't think so. This is strike number two for the EU with Turkey.

Face it, the EU needs Turkey less than Turkey needs EU, so they can only hurt themselves by being belligerent. The Cyprus situation seems to have gone so badly in great part due to Denktash being an idiot about many issues. If the Greek side of Cyprus joins the EU, the Turkish side will be well and truly fucked because of the increased economic gap between the two sides and more because if there is no reunification before that event, it'll become even harder for Turkey to get into the EU without just relinquishing the Turk Cyprus. They stand to gain nothing and lose a whole lot by being intransigent over Cyprus, with the ultimate losers being the common people of Turk Cyprus.

Edi

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-12 08:00am

Edi wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:
The main reason he wasn't shot was their desire to please the E.U. They give a damn.
After what's happening over Cyprus? I don't think so. This is strike number two for the EU with Turkey.
Face it, the EU needs Turkey less than Turkey needs EU, so they can only hurt themselves by being belligerent. The Cyprus situation seems to have gone so badly in great part due to Denktash being an idiot about many issues. If the Greek side of Cyprus joins the EU, the Turkish side will be well and truly fucked because of the increased economic gap between the two sides and more because if there is no reunification before that event, it'll become even harder for Turkey to get into the EU without just relinquishing the Turk Cyprus. They stand to gain nothing and lose a whole lot by being intransigent over Cyprus, with the ultimate losers being the common people of Turk Cyprus.

Edi

And I certainly don't think the Greek Cypriots will be all too enthusiastic over footing the bill for unification if the Turkish economic situation gets worse.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-12 08:51am

What is funny is that Duchess seems to live in this quasi-fantasy world, where Turkey is somehow always in the right and never in the wrong. And yet the behaivour of the Turkish authorities is exactly the opposite of her 'perfect view of the world'. Turkey begged and pleaded to join the EU, and now they face a harder struggle. Because while before the Greek government was its strongest supporter, it now faces the trouble of running the gauntlet twice.

In case it has escaped anyone else's notice, when the Cyprus does join the EU it also gets, dramatic pause, a veto power on such policies as expansion. I would really like to see the day that Cyprus will allow Turkey to enter the EU when it illegally occupies part of its territory.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-12 08:53am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Of course, under EU human rights laws school detentions have been ruled illegal so I doubt Turkey will ever give a damn.

European Convention of Human Rights that bans the school detentions has nothing to do with European Union.

Anyhow, Turks are desperate to get into EU and if they fail to do so, they'll economy will continue its downfall.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-12 09:22am

Crown wrote:What is funny is that Duchess seems to live in this quasi-fantasy world, where Turkey is somehow always in the right and never in the wrong. And yet the behaivour of the Turkish authorities is exactly the opposite of her 'perfect view of the world'. Turkey begged and pleaded to join the EU, and now they face a harder struggle. Because while before the Greek government was its strongest supporter, it now faces the trouble of running the gauntlet twice.

Turkey wanted to join the EU primarily for economic reasons. The Greeks wanted Turkey in for resolution of various disputes with Turkey and - Of course - Economic issues. Those disputes are unresolveable considering the nature of the European demands, and so the economic alternative is the USA.

We're more than capable of taking up the slack, and geography is no problem - Not only Israel, but Iraq as well, shall soon be modern states inside of our orbit. Iraq will once again be a major Turkish trading partner - even more than before the Second Persian Gulf War - and furthermore the USA will take up the fiscal slack where the EU failed by its own racism and stupidity to bring in Turkey and get a hand into the Middle East.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-12 09:28am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Crown wrote:What is funny is that Duchess seems to live in this quasi-fantasy world, where Turkey is somehow always in the right and never in the wrong. And yet the behaivour of the Turkish authorities is exactly the opposite of her 'perfect view of the world'. Turkey begged and pleaded to join the EU, and now they face a harder struggle. Because while before the Greek government was its strongest supporter, it now faces the trouble of running the gauntlet twice.
Turkey wanted to join the EU primarily for economic reasons. The Greeks wanted Turkey in for resolution of various disputes with Turkey and - Of course - Economic issues. Those disputes are unresolveable considering the nature of the European demands, and so the economic alternative is the USA.

We're more than capable of taking up the slack, and geography is no problem - Not only Israel, but Iraq as well, shall soon be modern states inside of our orbit. Iraq will once again be a major Turkish trading partner - even more than before the Second Persian Gulf War - and furthermore the USA will take up the fiscal slack where the EU failed by its own racism and stupidity to bring in Turkey and get a hand into the Middle East.

Imperialism at work, how grand. The EU sought to not only bring Turkey's shite economy up to scratch, but to also bring its policies more in line with human rights accord. Not to use it as a 'sattelite' to further the EU's agenda in the Middle East. What always kills me is this, say that the war on Iraq goes according to plan. The US sets up a real (note; non puppet) democratic government, and yet Iraq still doesn't want to play ball with the US, what happens then? My bet, same thing that happened to Iran in the 50's.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-12 09:35am

Crown wrote:
Imperialism at work, how grand. The EU sought to not only bring Turkey's shite economy up to scratch, but to also bring its policies more in line with human rights accord. Not to use it as a 'sattelite' to further the EU's agenda in the Middle East. What always kills me is this, say that the war on Iraq goes according to plan. The US sets up a real (note; non puppet) democratic government, and yet Iraq still doesn't want to play ball with the US, what happens then? My bet, same thing that happened to Iran in the 50's.

There'd be no reason for something like that.

1. A democratic government would be a capitalist government, and such would want to trade with us regardless of if they liked us or not. The Republic of China's biggest trading partner is the People's Republic of China, and it would hardly be that sort of hatred.

2. Agreements for basing rights, like those in Germany or Japan, could simply be a condition of the peace treaty. By the time the new government was in place those would be a done deal, and the worst thing that would happen is protests by the newly freed (and highly unlikely to be that ungrateful) citizenry over the presence of U.S. troops at their completely legal and legitimately got military bases, which in the meantime would be - you guessed it - pumping money into the economy.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-12 09:44am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:There'd be no reason for something like that.

1. A democratic government would be a capitalist government, and such would want to trade with us regardless of if they liked us or not. The Republic of China's biggest trading partner is the People's Republic of China, and it would hardly be that sort of hatred.

2. Agreements for basing rights, like those in Germany or Japan, could simply be a condition of the peace treaty. By the time the new government was in place those would be a done deal, and the worst thing that would happen is protests by the newly freed (and highly unlikely to be that ungrateful) citizenry over the presence of U.S. troops at their completely legal and legitimately got military bases, which in the meantime would be - you guessed it - pumping money into the economy.

I sincerely hope that you are right, because history teaches us the opposite. My guess is that a Shah-like regime will make an Iraqi appearance, but time will tell.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-03-12 10:14am

MKSheppard wrote: Turkey's Ocalan trial 'unfair'
The European Court of Human Rights has condemned Turkey for violating the human rights of jailed Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan.
The court ruled that Ocalan did not receive a fair trial.

Evidently the legal "out" for Turkey is to reclassify him as an enemy combatant.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-12 11:11am

t

he U.S, or any other country, has no right to speak about and criticize the internal matters of the E.U.

We have as much right as you do to critize. The nations of the EU have critisized us for a long time on the death penatly and recently several have critisized Bush tax plan (they were right but that's not the point). And the EU seems to have no problem commenting on other countries internal matters as well.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-12 11:25am

Stormbringer wrote:
The U.S, or any other country, has no right to speak about and criticize the internal matters of the E.U.
We have as much right as you do to critize. The nations of the EU have critisized us for a long time on the death penatly and recently several have critisized Bush tax plan (they were right but that's not the point). And the EU seems to have no problem commenting on other countries internal matters as well.

I believe he was refering to the 'pressure' the US exerted onto the EU during the enlargement process. It's akin to the EU telling you whether or not to admit Mexico as the 53rd (?) state for example (a very far-fetched example I will happily conceed).

EDIT:

On the other hand, your points are very valid. Sorry for rushing in like that.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-12 11:36am

Stormbringer wrote:t
he U.S, or any other country, has no right to speak about and criticize the internal matters of the E.U.
We have as much right as you do to critize. The nations of the EU have critisized us for a long time on the death penatly and recently several have critisized Bush tax plan (they were right but that's not the point). And the EU seems to have no problem commenting on other countries internal matters as well.

Well, yes. I was unhappy in my choice of words. Criticism and opinions are always welcome, as long as they're constructive.

I was refering to what Crown mentioned. The U.S has no right to tell the E.U "you'd better let Turkey in", like some sort of veiled threat. That action hurt Turkey, instead of helping it. Only we decide if and when another country join the club. This is not NATO or the UN, or similar organization. The E.U is a quasi-federation, and a country doesn't join only because of military or economic aliances or common interests. It goes deeper than that.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 02:05pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Well, yes. I was unhappy in my choice of words. Criticism and opinions are always welcome, as long as they're constructive.

I was refering to what Crown mentioned. The U.S has no right to tell the E.U "you'd better let Turkey in", like some sort of veiled threat. That action hurt Turkey, instead of helping it. Only we decide if and when another country join the club. This is not NATO or the UN, or similar organization. The E.U is a quasi-federation, and a country doesn't join only because of military or economic aliances or common interests. It goes deeper than that.

I agree that the US has no right to dictate the policies of other soveriegn nations. But I do think that the US has the right to comment as the European countries have the right to comment about us.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-13 02:15pm

Stormbringer wrote: I agree that the US has no right to dictate the policies of other soveriegn nations. But I do think that the US has the right to comment as the European countries have the right to comment about us.

Yes, I agree with you. In the recent Turkey business the line dividing the two was almost crossed, and that irked the E.U members and government.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-13 02:20pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Yes, I agree with you. In the recent Turkey business the line dividing the two was almost crossed, and that irked the E.U members and government.

I'm not at all suprised. Bush is no diplomat and I don't think he listens to people that are. He's a spoiled child and acts it.

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Turkey's Ocalan trial 'unfair'

Turkey's Ocalan trial 'unfair'

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