Silly Protester, You Go Squish Now!

[Durandal]

I was holding off my reply since I thought the thread would be locked shortly, but ...

Not really. Like I've said, it sounds like if it wasn't an accident (and we still haven't heard the whole story) it was the idiocy of one guy.

He's merely the latest in a long line of civilian deaths. The ratio of civilian killings to actual, confirmed terrorist killings by the IDF is extremely high.

But they also support those terrorist and a lot of them send their kids out to throw rocks at terrorists. They've also got a government riddled from top to bottom with terrorists.

Ah yes, they're "terrorist supporters," so Israel gets free reign to kill whomever they choose. Children throwing rocks isn't exactly dangerous.

The Palestinians have gotten a raw deal but their response is at least as responsible for their current situation.

IEver heard of Ganhdi? Ever heard of Martin Luther King Jr? Peaceful protest would be a good start. Civil disobedience and disruption would go a long why towards waking the world up to their plight without compromising it with violence. And if the IDF did come down on them (and that would be a hell of a lot less likely) they would have the moral high ground.

Hm ... oh, didn't one woman just try that? We'll see how the international community reacts to this incident, but no doubt they'll find some way to tke the blame off of Israel for it.

Then I would suggest you hand the deed to your house and property to the nearest Native American and leave. The Israelis, like it or not, there to stay and the sensible thing for both to do would be to make an effort at real negotiation.

How about Israel gives Palestinians full citizenship status so your analogy can actually work? The American government has at least made an attempt at compensation for the damage we dealt the native Americans. Israel has not given the Palestinians any kind of compensation at all.

[Stormbringer]

He's merely the latest in a long line of civilian deaths. The ratio of civilian killings to actual, confirmed terrorist killings by the IDF is extremely high.

Well, why not give those terrorist some spiffy uniforms then! When a terrorist looks just like a civilian that's what happens. War's hell, for the innocent and the guilty.

Ah yes, they're "terrorist supporters," so Israel gets free reign to kill whomever they choose. Children throwing rocks isn't exactly dangerous.

Damien, even you can't deny that a large percent of them do support terrorists.

And it's not mobs of children throwing rocks. It's kids tagging and being dragged along to these riots. Like I say, that's what happens when you take your kid along to assualt soldiers. It's the fault of the people that bring them along, knowing what happens, to get propaganda out of it.

Hm ... oh, didn't one woman just try that? We'll see how the international community reacts to this incident, but no doubt they'll find some way to tke the blame off of Israel for it.

There are plenty of indications this is just a stupid accident. At this point there are plenty of accounts that suggest it was unitentioanal.

How about Israel gives Palestinians full citizenship status so your analogy can actually work? The American government has at least made an attempt at compensation for the damage we dealt the native Americans. Israel has not given the Palestinians any kind of compensation at all

It's not about compensation so stop with the red herrings. I'm saying that you need to accept Israel is there and is in it for the long haul.

And of course they should give them equal rights and citizenship as part of any peace program. There won't be peace without that.

[Durandal]

Well, why not give those terrorist some spiffy uniforms then! When a terrorist looks just like a civilian that's what happens. War's hell, for the innocent and the guilty.

This is true, but hundreds of Palestinian civilians die every year. Perhaps the IDF should exercise a little more discretion before shelling a town to rubble.

Damien, even you can't deny that a large percent of them do support terrorists.

I'm not going to deny that the majority of the Palestinian population would like to see the Israelis thrown out and killed, but that does not equate to them actively supporting terrorism.

And it's not mobs of children throwing rocks. It's kids tagging and being dragged along to these riots. Like I say, that's what happens when you take your kid along to assualt soldiers. It's the fault of the people that bring them along, knowing what happens, to get propaganda out of it.

While a parent has to be heartless to do such a thing, a soldier must be equally heartless to gun down a child forced into that position.

There are plenty of indications this is just a stupid accident. At this point there are plenty of accounts that suggest it was unitentioanal.

The problem with recommending non-violent protests as a method for the Palestinians is that Ghandi got the world involved. Much of the UN is already pro-Israel and is not going to change their mind. And even if they do, the US certainly will not.

It's not about compensation so stop with the red herrings. I'm saying that you need to accept Israel is there and is in it for the long haul.

You told me to give the deed to my (hypothetical) home to an American Indian if I expected the Israelis to withdraw from Palestine. The American Indians have been compensated by the American government, so this is unnecessary. Either the Israelis should compensate the Palestinians for the land they stole and give them full rights as citizens, or they should get the Hell out.

And of course they should give them equal rights and citizenship as part of any peace program. There won't be peace without that.

Then there won't be peace. Israel wants what is, by definition, a racist state, and the rest of the world is backing them.

[DPDarkPrimus]

It's impossible right now to tell whether it was an accident or done on purpose. As such, let this event just be noted as another reason why Americans should stay the hell out of affairs that don't concern them.

Furthermore, on the debate over Israel/Palistine: Both sides are bastards, there is no "good guy" right now. The only reason America supports Israel is that we helped found their country and they are in a world hotspot where America is lacking in allies.

[Stormbringer]

This is true, but hundreds of Palestinian civilians die every year. Perhaps the IDF should exercise a little more discretion before shelling a town to rubble.

That's the nature of urban warfare. If you drag a war into your neighborhood don't be suprised if you get people killed.

I'm not going to deny that the majority of the Palestinian population would like to see the Israelis thrown out and killed, but that does not equate to them actively supporting terrorism.

No. But it means that there's no one that wants actually stop the killing.

While a parent has to be heartless to do such a thing, a soldier must be equally heartless to gun down a child forced into that position.

It's a mob. I doubt they took time to make sure the kids got clear once the rocks started flying.

The problem with recommending non-violent protests as a method for the Palestinians is that Ghandi got the world involved. Much of the UN is already pro-Israel and is not going to change their mind. And even if they do, the US certainly will not.

A lot of that has to do with the fact that their method of involving the world generally involved hijacking their aircraft. And the fact they kill civilians deliberately isn't going to win them any points.

You told me to give the deed to my (hypothetical) home to an American Indian if I expected the Israelis to withdraw from Palestine. The American Indians have been compensated by the American government, so this is unnecessary. Either the Israelis should compensate the Palestinians for the land they stole and give them full rights as citizens, or they should get the Hell out.

They should. But so far that has been prevented by the fact that they're still trying to kill the Israelis. Why give stuff to the people that want to slaughter you and everyone you know?

Then there won't be peace. Israel wants what is, by definition, a racist state, and the rest of the world is backing them.

You mean it has nothing to do with the fact that the Palenstinian are at best apathetic about or in most cases look forward to slaughtering all the jews in israel?

[fgalkin]

Then there won't be peace. Israel wants what is, by definition, a racist state, and the rest of the world is backing them.

How exactly is it racist?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stormbringer]

Then there won't be peace. Israel wants what is, by definition, a racist state, and the rest of the world is backing them.

How exactly is it racist?

It is to a degree. It's that Israel was created as a jewish state (for good reasons) and Palestinians don't have Israeli citizenship. But he overlooks the obvious fact that the arabs would simply obliterate the jews in that situation.

[fgalkin]

Then there won't be peace. Israel wants what is, by definition, a racist state, and the rest of the world is backing them.

How exactly is it racist?

It is to a degree. It's that Israel was created as a jewish state (for good reasons) and Palestinians don't have Israeli citizenship. But he overlooks the obvious fact that the arabs would simply obliterate the jews in that situation.

The fact that it was created as a "jewish" state means absolutely nothing. Almost all nations created in the 20th century have followed the principle of self determination. Yet he doesn't seem to have a problem with Poland, Finland, the Baltic states, Ukraine, any of the Asian republics of the former USSR, former Yugoslavia, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and virtually every nation of Sub-Saharan Africa .

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Durandal]

I'm not going to reply, as this has turned into another Israel/Palestine thread. Feel free to take this as a concession or however you like, but would a mod please lock this thread?

[Hamel]

The thread title still pisses me off

OH, BE STILL MY BLEEDING HEART!

[Coyote]

There's little going on here that has not gone on before. We can lock it safely; there won't be much opinion-changing going on here, I think.

[Darth Wong]

Goddamned Israel/Palestine fanaticism.