Help the Native Americans repel the European invasion (RAR)

[Elheru Aran]

Right; produce a few at first for training purposes, and then produce more for 'graduation presents' or have the Adept create their own once you have some production facilities for steel. Perhaps do it in two-man teams like the Mormons do their missionaries; have them both be familiar with the basics of woodworking and blacksmithing, but each one specializes in a particular path. For example, one team could have a woodworker who specializes in building houses and other structures, while the other is a blacksmith who makes architectural components such as hinges, tie-rods, bolts and so forth.

I'm actually thinking crop species is the big limiter, and the only thing that makes this a challenge.
One of the reasons so few farming socities came out of the Americas was the fairly rubbish plant choice they had comapred to the golden crescent.

That's an interesting point. I thought the Americas were OK as far as that went with their corn, gourds, peppers, potatoes and so forth? There was plenty of farming, not sure why you say there are few 'farming societies'...

[Starglider]

The only possible barrier is tradition; if they're warrior societies where young men traditionally don't work but rather devote themselves to hunting and fighting, trying to change that ethic may be difficult.

The social challenges of achieving the necessary acceleration of civilisation on a continental scale are considerably harder than the technological ones; convincing hunter-gatherers to do hard manual labour is just one of the early issues. Creating and maintaining momentum for this kind of radical change is just hard, particularly with no technological communication mechanisms, no existing shared language and a pre-scientific, tribalist mindset.

[LaCroix]

The only possible barrier is tradition; if they're warrior societies where young men traditionally don't work but rather devote themselves to hunting and fighting, trying to change that ethic may be difficult.

The social challenges of achieving the necessary acceleration of civilisation on a continental scale are considerably harder than the technological ones; convincing hunter-gatherers to do hard manual labour is just one of the early issues. Creating and maintaining momentum for this kind of radical change is just hard, particularly with no technological communication mechanisms, no existing shared language and a pre-scientific, tribalist mindset.

That's why you should try using a civilisation that already has a "caste" system in place, and division of labor.

By making the men doing the essential work of uplifting members of the religious caste - if it is a honor to be one of the specialist tradesmen (while your primary job is to oversee unskilled workers operating machinery you created), it will help acceptance.

The warrior caste will be happy with the fact that we want to expand into other territories, and with superior weaponry, while the tradesmen group will be happy with the better tools they get from the "Tech priests", and the agrarian/worker caste will be happy that their work gets easier, while food gets more plenty, still.

With a nomad hunter-gatherer civ, you would need to radically change their culture while trying to lift them up, which could easily cost you a couple of generations. Better to conquer and/or absorb those into your culture as your controlled territory spreads.

[Elheru Aran]

The only possible barrier is tradition; if they're warrior societies where young men traditionally don't work but rather devote themselves to hunting and fighting, trying to change that ethic may be difficult.

The social challenges of achieving the necessary acceleration of civilisation on a continental scale are considerably harder than the technological ones; convincing hunter-gatherers to do hard manual labour is just one of the early issues. Creating and maintaining momentum for this kind of radical change is just hard, particularly with no technological communication mechanisms, no existing shared language and a pre-scientific, tribalist mindset.

Very true. For this reason it may be ideal to start with an culture that is already agricultural and familiar with the concept of hard work. Options include the Maya in central America, Aztec in Mexico, Mississippian culture in North America, possibly but not sure if they were around in this period the Six Nations of the Iroquis. These tribes will be accustomed to the ideas of division of labour, have a leadership class who could be educated and reassigned to instruction, and have settlements convenient for establishing schools and production facilities.

Of course the trick is really just getting the whole snowball made, never mind starting it rolling...

[Welf]

There is SO much you can produce with just these basic tools and some experience and knowledge. The Romans had these tools (or similar equivalents-- a plumb-bob level rather than a spirit level) and managed to build/civilize most of Europe. Given access to similar tools and the knowledge how to use them, the Natives could have reached similar peaks on their own continent.

If it is so easy, why didn't the American natives came up with it? And how could Europe loose much of the Roman knowledge if it just takes time and effort? And why didn't the Germanic tribes (or any of the more primitive neighbours) uplift to Roman level in a few decades after they established trade contacts with the Romans? Yes, technology was "simple" back then, but that only means it even more harder to produce quality products. It needs intensive tutoring and skill. Modern tools make these things easier, not harder.

People also forget that the average settler and the average indian were not far apart in scientific knowledge. Both were able to constuct houses, make tools, weaponry, and agriculture and husbandry technology wasn't that far apart, neither.
It's not as if the indians would need to move through the full extent of copper and bronze age, first. They can learn sumultaneous.

Not far apart? You guys do realize metalworking is not a guy with hammer beating metal piece, but something that took a millennium to develop? And while it looks simple, it definitely isn't?

The main difference was that the settlers had advanced tools - once tthese tools fell into the hands of indianx, they quickly used them as efficient as a settler. Even the most technically advanced job the settler had (blacksmith) was a job a person could learn from scratch within a few years.

What? Medieval journeyman (who had experts to train with and ask questions) took anywhere between 15 and 20 years to be declared Master. Do you realize how easy it is to ruin work piece by bad metal composition, or simply by using slightly wrong temperature?

You do know that I'm a hobbyist blacksmith, right? I know what I am talking about when I am talking manual blacksmith work.
The reason why it took people 7 years to become a blacksmith journeyman was that they had to work off their tuition for the first 6 years, by shoveling coal, turning grinding wheels and swinging big hammers to do the basic shaping work so the master did't have to strain himself. The actual teaching portion of that apprenticeship was the last year.

The 15-20 years to be declared a master was not necessary per se - the skills could be refined sufficiently in a couple of years - not declaring people masters for long periods of time was to protect the guilds and trade, not because it takes that long to learn. Also, we don't need masters in order to make simple metal tools - I never said we would churn out clockworks and handguns - I said simple HAND TOOLS - like hammers, axes, sawblades, and most important - knives and nails. While I can simultaneously pull the same basic tools out of the box, because they are already invented. Anivl needed? pull it out of the box. Need a saw? pull it out of the bos.
Teachingg them to make them is so you can later send these men into other towns where they can spread the knowleage, as I wrote later. You cannot be everywhere simultaniously, and cannot disperse your box goodies everywhere, neither. so you have to lift people up, and they will then work as multiplyers by teaching others in other towns.

A modern apprenticeship in Germany takes about 3,5 years till someone is considered a professional, and also starting from a higher education level. I don't disagree that you can learn to be a hobby blacksmith in short time. But what would be the use of second or third rate tools and weapons? A wood sword with obidian is just as deadly as a sword, and definitely more deadly that a badly made sword.

[Elheru Aran]

There is SO much you can produce with just these basic tools and some experience and knowledge. The Romans had these tools (or similar equivalents-- a plumb-bob level rather than a spirit level) and managed to build/civilize most of Europe. Given access to similar tools and the knowledge how to use them, the Natives could have reached similar peaks on their own continent.

If it is so easy, why didn't the American natives came up with it? And how could Europe loose much of the Roman knowledge if it just takes time and effort? And why didn't the Germanic tribes (or any of the more primitive neighbours) uplift to Roman level in a few decades after they established trade contacts with the Romans? Yes, technology was "simple" back then, but that only means it even more harder to produce quality products. It needs intensive tutoring and skill. Modern tools make these things easier, not harder.

Don't have much time but the Native Americans didn't come up with much high technology for two simple reasons: One, minimal metal. You do need metal to make really useful tools. You can make do without-- the Egyptians did a lot with stone-- but ultimately metal just makes everything *really* easier. You don't need a lot of it-- a chisel only needs a few ounces of bronze, iron or steel-- but those few ounces make a huge difference. The second is necessity. They didn't particularly *need* massive buildings, huge works of adequects and public roads, etc; they were using stone hoes to plant corn, gourds, etc, saplings to build houses covered with tree-bark, and did just fine. The Germanic tribes and such were in much the same situation-- they were happy with their lot in life, they didn't necessarily have the same ambitions and ethics that the Romans did. A pretty good argument can be made that the Germanic tribes were actually not all that different from many Native American tribes in their general manners... Plus, the Germanic tribes *did* 'uplift'. We just don't notice because the Roman stuff is so prominent. The Germans, Celto-Romans, etc. became what we know as Medieval Europe. They didn't turn into cavemen when the Western Empire fell.

The technology may have been simpler, and yes, it's harder to make with medieval level tools... but that doesn't change the fact that it *CAN* be made. All it takes is knowledge and experience.

[LaCroix]

A modern apprenticeship in Germany takes about 3,5 years till someone is considered a professional, and also starting from a higher education level. I don't disagree that you can learn to be a hobby blacksmith in short time. But what would be the use of second or third rate tools and weapons? A wood sword with obidian is just as deadly as a sword, and definitely more deadly that a badly made sword.

You're confusing my argument with the strawman.

I never claimed that I would only teach them a year and consider them professionals. I said it would only take a year to teach someone the ropes of the trade, so they can make tools for other people or be able to assist me. They will need to improve on their own or with more training to become Masters, true.

What I did refute was that it took a journeyman (which was ~7 years back then) would need 15-20 more years to become a Master.

Also, I am quite aware that you need some skilled people to make quality weapons that are better than what is around, but you need to instruct people to create the basics in order to get the whole iron industry rolling in order to get the quantities necessary to even think about wasting iron on weapons. During that time, they will get better on their own, and you will have gotten better, and so you can instruct people better, too. You will occasionally make a metal weapons (heck, a metal dagger or axe will already improve your soldier's gear a lot) and armor piece while training people, but there is no way you could build a steel military before your society is "ironized" fully.

It will take a couple of decades of you reading up on stuff, practicing your own skills, and instructing people (who also get better while working and getting occasional 'refresher' trainings with you), who will in turn expand the iron industry, until you get to the point where I said you can "go wild" and build fancy stuff. Only then, once infrastructure is there, you will need lots of metal weaponry in order to start expanding.

[Starglider]

With a nomad hunter-gatherer civ, you would need to radically change their culture while trying to lift them up, which could easily cost you a couple of generations.

Everyone in this thread seems to have total confidence that a primitive tribe is going to let one weird looking stranger radically change their culture and generally take over just because they have an endless stash of strange tools and an apparent immunity to stab wounds. Think about the humans you know in leadership positions, what it takes to be in a leadership position of a hunter gatherer tribe, how hard people hold onto their culture even now never mind back then, pre mass-media and pre globalisation. There is existing religious belief but that doesn't mean you will easily be able to co-opt it for your purposes, not if you are an outsider threatening existing traditions and power structures. Yes religious order and trade based approaches will likely work better than outright conquest and dictatorship, yes the chances are improved if you travel and try this in multiple locations, but even still; most humans do not have the luck, skill and personality to be a prophet or self-made tyrant. You will be hated and resented by many, even your allies will be constantly arguing with you, you will have to constantly batter away at preconceptions and traditions and hold your tounge in the face of constant behaviour that seems stupid or wildly unethical. Because if you try to move too quickly, the people you are trying to help will turn on you and things will fall apart. You need flexibility to change your approach, as your first guesses about how to deal with these very alien cultures will usually be wrong, but absolute determination where needed to stare down challengers.

Even on the technological side, although each individual issue is relatively straightforward, there are just so many of them. History of pre-technological societies glosses over the sheer amount of detail in even a relatively primitive civilisation. There are definitely major bandwidth and co-ordination issues in disseminating that knowledge even given appropriate books. You have the advantage of immortality and the box, but you also have the disadvantages of being separated from everyone and everything you've ever known, living in primitive conditions without any modern conveniences, watching people around you constantly getting sick and dying young. Certainly for the first few decades that psychological pressure cannot be shrugged off.

I certainly think this challenge is possible, but I suspect that >90% of random internet forum members would fail it for the above reasons. I couldn't even confidently estimate who has a good shot; there are some people who are just hopelessly unqualified, but of the remainder it's hard to say who would rise to the challenge until they're actually dropped into the situation.

[LaCroix]

Plus, the Germanic tribes *did* 'uplift'. We just don't notice because the Roman stuff is so prominent. The Germans, Celto-Romans, etc. became what we know as Medieval Europe. They didn't turn into cavemen when the Western Empire fell.

Actually, it was kind of the other way round - the Celtic/Germanic tribes uplifted the Romans, ironwork-wise.
Roman iron tech improved a LOT when they conquered the Noricum region, where steel working was highly advanced.

[Simon_Jester]

...did you just seriously suggested giving illiterate Indians who DON'T HAVE WRITTEN LANGUAGE OR EVEN CONCEPT OF WRITING AS SUCH books

You do realize Mesoamerica had writing systems developed by its civilizations? And I am sure you do realize that teaching illiterates literacy could be accomplished fairly quickly, as real life has shown.

You know... I'm guessing 'no.' No he does not. He may know this, but he does not 'realize' it in a way that would keep him from using the "ha ha illiterate primitives" stereotype to support his attempts to mock Borgholio.

See... Irbis knows a great deal about certain things, but he has this weird habit where if he is ignorant on a given subject, he just decides that whatever others want to do is impossible because he personally doesn't know how to do it, or doesn't understand all the factors involved.

It's not that he's stupid, it's that he's incapable of believing that another human might have already thought of anything that hadn't already occurred to him. So he raises the first objection that pops out of his mouth, without stopping to consider whether that objection makes sense. He tells LaCroix that it's "impossible" to teach blacksmithing to Stone Age tribes, even though LaCroix, as I recall, has a good deal of experience with premodern metalworking himself.

Because if Irbis can't do it, no one can! If Irbis just thought of it, nobody else has thought of it!



It's kind of funny when you get used to watching the pattern.

It makes sense to mention the Europeans never actually conquered China in entirety, like India. A delay is precisely what differentiates even possible dependency from outright annihilation.

I agree; that was a point I made to Irbis a little while ago. See, he objected to the idea that advancing the natives to the Iron Age was useful, arguing that it would 'just result in them getting conquered later like India.'

It didn't occur to him to do the extra minute or so of thinking that would tell him that even that level of conquest is much different and better than having your society completely wrecked (India's experience of British rule was, proportionately speaking, a much less undesirable fate than the Australian aborigines' experience).

Or the thinking that would tell him that many Iron Age societies were either never conquered by Europeans (Japan) or only partially subdued by them (Thailand, China)... precisely because they were able to sustain technology, population, and organization in the face of everything the Europeans could throw at them.

Whereas societies that lost this cohesion or never had it in the first place were totally destroyed and reduced to scattered survivors.

But obviously that doesn't make a difference, because once Irbis has thought of a reason why he might disagree with someone, there isn't anything more to say!
______________________

Question:How long is operation "And no explorers ever returned alive" viable in preventing European's from moving against the Americas?

Probably fifty years or less. Maybe less than twenty.

Assuming your God Emperor status and magic box if your get the locals on your side and have two hundred years to prepare how possible is it to simply take or burn every ship that sights America for a few hundred years before the map makers put in "here be dragons" and give you another hundred years of breathing room?

The catch is that European mariners of this era tended to be well armed, relatively cunning, and highly alert to the prospect of treachery. Piracy, ship-thieving, and ambushes were hardly unknown in Europe, after all.

Even if you can get ALL the tribes of the coastal regions to agree that any white man who shows up is to be killed, all along the ten thousand or so miles of coastline of the Americas... there's a good chance that some ship will land somewhere, scout around, and escape before you can do anything about it. The technology simply doesn't exist in this era to patrol the entire Atlantic coast, maintain a steady blockade, and sink all ships that approach or ambush them before they can escape.

So sooner or later, someone's going to get an inkling that those continents exist and want to know what's going on, and "the natives are hostile" never stopped Europeans from taking a look.

What matters more than delaying European discovery of the Americas is:

1) Preventing Europeans from building up large permanent colony-bases that allow them to rest their forces in a secure, defensible place immune to native counterattack. Arming natives with better weapons is the key to this. Historically, a well-built wooden palisade defended by soldiers with guns, crossbows, and steel armor was immune to almost anything the natives could throw at it; equip the natives with cannon and this is no longer true.

2) Preventing the plague outbreaks from utterly wiping out the structured, civilized native communities of the pre-Columbian era. In many cases, the plagues killed 90% of the population over a period of a century or so. For example, Hernando de Soto marched into what is now the Deep South of the US with a few hundred heavily armed men around 1540 or so. He fought numerous battles against vastly more numerous, civilized, thoroughly developed native societies... but after a few years, he died, and his expedition brought no major results from a European point of view.

Except that the diseases his men brought with him, combined with ecological harm caused by introduced species, totally destroyed this entire civilization, so that when de La Salle explored the same area in the 1680s, he found only a handful of people living in tiny villages, whereas de Soto had seen densely packed, heavily developed towns with their own farms and armies. So there was this civilization that could potentially have pretty much stopped European expansion in the southern part of what is now the United States, possibly nipping the institution of African-American slavery in the bud in the US, changing the entire course of the history of the Americas...

...and it just... crumbled. Not by conquest, not by warfare; literally NO Europeans even tried to exploit this land for a century or more after de Soto. It collapsed because of a few hundred men and a few hundred pigs, and the epidemics they spread.

This is where the magic box's ability to produce medicine, especially vaccines, comes in so very handy.
__________________________

Question:How long is operation "And no explorers ever returned alive" viable in preventing European's from moving against the Americas?
Assuming your God Emperor status and magic box if your get the locals on your side and have two hundred years to prepare how possible is it to simply take or burn every ship that sights America for a few hundred years before the map makers put in "here be dragons" and give you another hundred years of breathing room?

It's definitely possible. Columbus only got funding because Spain figured they had nothing to lose by sending three old ships, and everything to gain if he turned out to be right. If he never returned, that would just add more proof that getting across the Atlantic was as hard as everybody else was saying and put off further expeditions for quite some time. I think eventually they'd get around to sending larger and larger expeditions until one of them succeeded, but by then the natives would be well enough equipped to fend off any forceful attempts at colonization.

Again, this won't last. Columbus was only the first. Ships capable of making the Atlantic crossing easily were getting more common during that era, and after Vasco da Gama made his voyage to India, there was a constant stream of heavily armed European shipping going to India and back. The shipping routes to India led well out into the Atlantic; they didn't hug the African coast.

You're not going to be able to make sure Europeans remain ignorant of conditions in the Atlantic. Nor are you going to be able to stop European ships from accidentally going farther west due to weather or navigational errors. And each passing decade makes the job harder, because European ships get bigger, they get a larger and larger number of captains and crews with long range sailing experience, and the various crowned heads of Europe get a stronger and stronger incentive to find alternate routes to the riches of the Orient besides the one dominated by Portugal.

[Psawhn]

I just wanted to de-lurk and point out one potentially unorthodox strategy enabled by the immortality: Walking over to the Old World to acquire resources that the magic box can't create. It would be long and miserable, but you could probably travel over the ice cap during the winter. One such resource could be seed stock. I don't know which crops would be the most advantageous to get, but I'm imagining things like wheat, rice, soy, or something else very valuable.

Another possibility is using the box to gain wealth in Europe/Asia to fund your own "risky" and "premature" expedition back across the Atlantic carrying a breeding population of horses and cattle. I mention cattle because a vaccine derived from cowpox would not suffer the logistical problems of the smallpox vaccine coming out of the one magic box that could only be used by one person. I don't know enough about seafaring to judge how feasible such a plan would be, but if the Vikings could set up small outposts in eastern Canada it's likely possible, and with immortality on your side even if the worst happens in the middle of the Atlantic you could eventually swim back to shore.

[Irbis]

have them both be familiar with the basics of woodworking and blacksmithing, but each one specializes in a particular path. For example, one team could have a woodworker who specializes in building houses and other structures, while the other is a blacksmith who makes architectural components such as hinges, tie-rods, bolts and so forth.

...that's enough skills for at least half a dozen craftsmen right there...

That's an interesting point. I thought the Americas were OK as far as that went with their corn, gourds, peppers, potatoes and so forth? There was plenty of farming, not sure why you say there are few 'farming societies'...

Peppers and corn are native to central America, potatoes to south America, gourd plants to north America. It was actually the Europeans who brought these together and allowed farming boom to occur, without wasting a few decades on expedition hunting all of them your hypothetical time traveller won't have these. Oh, and you also need to import arcane procedures the Indians growing them used, or the whole effort is useless. Trivial, isn't it?

I just wanted to de-lurk and point out one potentially unorthodox strategy enabled by the immortality: Walking over to the Old World to acquire resources that the magic box can't create. It would be long and miserable, but you could probably travel over the ice cap during the winter.

Ice cap? You'd need literal ice age for that. In 1200s, you'd need to swim thousand of kilometers of frigid seas to get anywhere. Even assuming you cheated by going to Greenland and trying to cover relatively small distance to Iceland, you'd still need to cover 1200 km of stormy ocean in whatever boat you'd be able to build.

One such resource could be seed stock. I don't know which crops would be the most advantageous to get, but I'm imagining things like wheat, rice, soy, or something else very valuable.

Rice reached Italy in late 1400s. Soy Reached Europe in late 1800s. Wheat, while nice, was considerably less nutritious that varieties we have today and was easily beaten by potatoes as staple food. So, not really.

Another possibility is using the box to gain wealth in Europe/Asia to fund your own "risky" and "premature" expedition back across the Atlantic carrying a breeding population of horses and cattle. I mention cattle because a vaccine derived from cowpox would not suffer the logistical problems of the smallpox vaccine coming out of the one magic box that could only be used by one person.

Even ignoring the fact this expedition might cause the very outbreak you're trying to prevent, going back and earning enough money to hire a ship with expensive cargo is going to take decades. That's the problem with all these 'solutions' - people grossly underestimate the time it would took.

Oh, and if you really want animal that could help you uplifting natives (at the horrific cost to life biodiversity) try pigs. They are by far most efficient food source Old World had to offer New.

I don't know enough about seafaring to judge how feasible such a plan would be, but if the Vikings could set up small outposts in eastern Canada it's likely possible, and with immortality on your side even if the worst happens in the middle of the Atlantic you could eventually swim back to shore.

Small nitpick - ocean currents are far stronger than human muscles. You'd better pray some ship spotted you, before a wave or storm puts you underwater. You might be unable to die but I bet being crushed by a few kilometres of water won't be pleasing.

[madd0ct0r]

Won't the people growing the maize already know how to to treat it in food prep?

As for the three sisters growing strategy - I use similar on my allotment. It's not exactly difficult. Cottage gardens in the uk historically have used similar diverse strategies to maximise output for space cleared.

Potatoes replaced partially replaced wheat in the most northern parts of europe - wheat grown in the colder areas has a lot less protein, potatoes need a lot more water. Modern potatoes are also largely reliant on seed potatoes grown at high elevations since the blights don't spread up there.

Like all farming, it's trading off factors. As Elheru Aran pointed out, I was flat out wrong about the lack of farming societies. The key argument from Guns Germs and Steel I misremebered was that less options meant it took longer for farmers to emerge, NOT that they couldn't.

[Irbis]

Won't the people growing the maize already know how to to treat it in food prep?

As for the three sisters growing strategy - I use similar on my allotment. It's not exactly difficult. Cottage gardens in the uk historically have used similar diverse strategies to maximise output for space cleared.

People growing it, yes, but not people where you're trying to transplant them. Even if you choose to uplift maize farmers, you will lack the other plants people optimistically claim they would have just because they are American, without considering Americas are rather big place to cover on foot.

As for the strategy not being difficult, gee, maybe it's easy because you have millennia of research behind you? Including very sound reason why you should be doing so? Now try to go and tell ignorant farmers where you try to transplant it they should be planting this much less productive plant wasting 1/3 of growing time "because this makes land better". Would they even listen to you? Planting mono-cultural good crop until land is barren is really common agricultural mistake done everywhere through history and just one issue you might run into, optimistically hand-waving all of that just because everyone will bend down to your genius and do 200% of what you say is the worst thing a planner of such a thing might do.

Everyone in this thread seems to have total confidence that a primitive tribe is going to let one weird looking stranger radically change their culture and generally take over just because they have an endless stash of strange tools and an apparent immunity to stab wounds. Think about the humans you know in leadership positions, what it takes to be in a leadership position of a hunter gatherer tribe, how hard people hold onto their culture even now never mind back then, pre mass-media and pre globalisation. There is existing religious belief but that doesn't mean you will easily be able to co-opt it for your purposes, not if you are an outsider threatening existing traditions and power structures.

That's the problem right there - empowerment fantasies where WHITE MAN makes the stupid natives bow to him by his superior intellect (that will just produce penicillin or whatever else is needed from stuff he has on hand regardless of its suitability with help of skilled craftsmen who will appear out of thin air) while failing to consider you will be a random guy without anything to back your words or make anyone listen to you.

Hell, did anyone thought of simple 'local chieftain orders you beaten up, tied with some strong rope, and thrown into cellar while they deliberate how to best deal with strange devil speaking in tongues' problem? No? Then I bet you won't get very far.

Yes religious order and trade based approaches will likely work better than outright conquest and dictatorship, yes the chances are improved if you travel and try this in multiple locations, but even still; most humans do not have the luck, skill and personality to be a prophet or self-made tyrant. You will be hated and resented by many, even your allies will be constantly arguing with you, you will have to constantly batter away at preconceptions and traditions and hold your tounge in the face of constant behaviour that seems stupid or wildly unethical.

The irony is, the very American societies they want to uplift did the whole 'god king subjugating outlying tribes under his advanced civilization's iron fist' shtick. The result? The whole thing falling apart as soon as Spanish arrived with mass revolt of these very tribes. I didn't saw one thing differing these wildly optimistic delusions from what failed in real life, well, except for bravely ignoring every inconvenient detail but I have my doubts in success of that tactic.

I certainly think this challenge is possible, but I suspect that >90% of random internet forum members would fail it for the above reasons. I couldn't even confidently estimate who has a good shot; there are some people who are just hopelessly unqualified, but of the remainder it's hard to say who would rise to the challenge until they're actually dropped into the situation.

If you took experts from dozen universities, gave them decade to research and come up with an extremely detailed plan (with contingencies) what and where to concentrate efforts, all while searching for extremely skilled demagogue, teaching him required languages, then finally handing him the data research team produced and wishing him good luck, maybe, maybe he would be able to do something to slow the Europeans. That assuming the team didn't missed something crucial that would derail the project, which, given its complexity, would be very likely.

Normal guy with wikipedia? Please. If you uplifted anyone by even one-two decades, it would be a massive success and even that is kind of improbable.

[Purple]

The irony is, the very American societies they want to uplift did the whole 'god king subjugating outlying tribes under his advanced civilization's iron fist' shtick. The result? The whole thing falling apart as soon as Spanish arrived with mass revolt of these very tribes. I didn't saw one thing differing these wildly optimistic delusions from what failed in real life, well, except for bravely ignoring every inconvenient detail but I have my doubts in success of that tactic.

How many of these god kings could genuinely establish a policy where every challenger, rich or poor, warrior or priest or peasant can if they feel inclined try and take him on in a fight. I'd do that. I'd flat out make a big metal axe and make it my policy to let anyone who thinks I am not a god walk up to me and give me his best hit. Only one condition. Once he is done hitting me I get to take the axe and hit him back.

[madd0ct0r]

well, my personal plan is to go with the aztecs since they were expecting a white face god to show up.
I'm sure I can pass for white if I try

and as for crop rotation being a fantastic new innovation: http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-agriculture.html
wow. how astonishing. Crop rotation. A diverse selection of crops. Different farming systems for different soils!
It turns out being a native dosen't mean you are a moron who never experiments and reuse the things that work, that role is left to certain forum posters.

Domestication of local species might be a place to make an improvement. As you noted pigs would be useful. Peccaries ARE local. Rabbits are local to central america. Capybra ect are too (I wonder if Copyra herds could be used as a second phase field clearer, grubbing out the roots of weeds and eating them, kinda like pigs...). Farm breeds only really took of in the UK with the start of enclosures, when you could actually start to control what bred with what. Instigating that might be more difficult.

'local chieftain orders you beaten up, tied with some strong rope, and thrown into cellar while they deliberate how to best deal with strange devil speaking in tongues' problem? No? Then I bet you won't get very far.

True, this is the universal experience of wealthy people making contact with new peoples. Why not just go full stereotype with a cookpot and spit?

[Borgholio]

Again, this won't last. Columbus was only the first. Ships capable of making the Atlantic crossing easily were getting more common during that era, and after Vasco da Gama made his voyage to India, there was a constant stream of heavily armed European shipping going to India and back. The shipping routes to India led well out into the Atlantic; they didn't hug the African coast.

You're not going to be able to make sure Europeans remain ignorant of conditions in the Atlantic. Nor are you going to be able to stop European ships from accidentally going farther west due to weather or navigational errors. And each passing decade makes the job harder, because European ships get bigger, they get a larger and larger number of captains and crews with long range sailing experience, and the various crowned heads of Europe get a stronger and stronger incentive to find alternate routes to the riches of the Orient besides the one dominated by Portugal.

Oh sure, I know it won't last forever. We all know how persistent those pesky European explorers can be. But it would delay the next planned expedition by several years at least, more than long enough for word to spread that the dude with the magic box was telling the truth all along. Or alternatively, letting Columbus return safely with word of a powerful empire that isn't to be trifled with could allow for peaceful relations as well.

[Elheru Aran]

have them both be familiar with the basics of woodworking and blacksmithing, but each one specializes in a particular path. For example, one team could have a woodworker who specializes in building houses and other structures, while the other is a blacksmith who makes architectural components such as hinges, tie-rods, bolts and so forth.

...that's enough skills for at least half a dozen craftsmen right there...

Nope. No. Nyet. Completely wrong.

If you are familiar with timber framing, the same concepts apply across the board whether you're building a four-foot shed or a three-story barn. Hell, you can make pretty decent furniture with similar constructional methods to timber framing, which is essentially a whole bunch of fancy mortise-and-tenons writ large. That's one of the most fundamental constructional methods of furniture. It's only a matter of scale. Same with blacksmithing. If you can hammer a piece of round bar into flat stock, you can make a hinge.

Are you so limited in your mental capacity that you think people can't handle being familiar with a broad range of subjects within the same or similar discipline?

[Starglider]

If you took experts from dozen universities, gave them decade to research and come up with an extremely detailed plan (with contingencies) what and where to concentrate efforts, all while searching for extremely skilled demagogue, teaching him required languages, then finally handing him the data research team produced and wishing him good luck, maybe, maybe he would be able to do something to slow the Europeans. That assuming the team didn't missed something crucial that would derail the project, which, given its complexity, would be very likely.

This scenario does grant full knowledge of all relevant languages, the magic factory box and immunity to malnutrition and disease. Those are big enough advantages to make this 'really hard' not 'close to impossible'. I'm also assuming that after the really naive approaches fail hard people will try more sensible ones. Although as you say it won't help someone who gets locked up / buried alive.

Even though I generally prefer non-violent approaches, I would take a magic dragon (say Draco from Dragonheart) over a magic replicator box. Personally destroying the ships (or preferably, just the sails/masts/rigging, so the gulf stream carries them back to Europe) is the only really reliable way to buy a few more centuries. Also the ability to travel around the continent at reasonable speed, scout areas from the air and make a genuinely impressive entrance would probably outweigh even the massive head start the box gives you on tools, seeds and books.

[Borgholio]

Even though I generally prefer non-violent approaches, I would take a magic dragon (say Draco from Dragonheart) over a magic replicator box. Personally destroying the ships (or preferably, just the sails/masts/rigging, so the gulf stream carries them back to Europe) is the only really reliable way to buy a few more centuries. Also the ability to travel around the continent at reasonable speed, scout areas from the air and make a genuinely impressive entrance would probably outweigh even the massive head start the box gives you on tools, seeds and books.

So quite literally, "Here there be dragons..."

[Simon_Jester]

I just wanted to de-lurk and point out one potentially unorthodox strategy enabled by the immortality: Walking over to the Old World to acquire resources that the magic box can't create. It would be long and miserable, but you could probably travel over the ice cap during the winter. One such resource could be seed stock. I don't know which crops would be the most advantageous to get, but I'm imagining things like wheat, rice, soy, or something else very valuable.

That's... actually very clever.

It's not going to be even slightly easy, as I discuss below- basically you'd have to cross from Nunavut (the part of Canada formerly known as the eastern bit of the Northwest Territories), to Greenland, to Siberia, because I'm not sure that solid sheets of ice extend all the way south across the gap from the Arctic ice cap to Scandinavia even in winter.

This wouldn't be even slightly doable if you weren't an invulnerable person, and if your invulnerability does not extend to "drowning" or "frostbite," it's totally out of the question.

Another possibility is using the box to gain wealth in Europe/Asia to fund your own "risky" and "premature" expedition back across the Atlantic carrying a breeding population of horses and cattle. I mention cattle because a vaccine derived from cowpox would not suffer the logistical problems of the smallpox vaccine coming out of the one magic box that could only be used by one person. I don't know enough about seafaring to judge how feasible such a plan would be, but if the Vikings could set up small outposts in eastern Canada it's likely possible, and with immortality on your side even if the worst happens in the middle of the Atlantic you could eventually swim back to shore.

Setting up the expedition is likely to be more trouble than it's worth. You'd need the cooperation of sailors who will know you made the trip, which may result in an ahistorically early start of European exploration.

Meanwhile, the cowpox vaccine trick requires special techniques, so instead of spreading around the vaccine you have to spread the technique. That may actually be harder, I'm not sure.

Third and finally, I would NOT want to take chances of being able to escape from a shipwreck in the middle of the Atlantic. You could end up pinned between pieces of wreckage and unable to escape, you could end up somehow incapacitated by deep underwater pressure if you start to sink...

You could get turned around and end up swimming randomly in circles forever.

Even if your immunity to harm is nearly absolute and you can't starve or drown, it'd be a really horrible fate.

Won't the people growing the maize already know how to to treat it in food prep?

As for the three sisters growing strategy - I use similar on my allotment. It's not exactly difficult. Cottage gardens in the uk historically have used similar diverse strategies to maximise output for space cleared.

People growing it, yes, but not people where you're trying to transplant them. Even if you choose to uplift maize farmers, you will lack the other plants people optimistically claim they would have just because they are American, without considering Americas are rather big place to cover on foot.

The "three sisters" strategy is something the Native Americans already knew and practiced before Columbus, you idiot.

This is ridiculous. You're wasting everyone's time, including your own.

It's one thing when you're pointing out practical difficulties like "you can't actually walk across the Arctic ice cap from Canada to Europe." Even though strictly, you probably could if you're willing to come ashore somewhere in northern Siberia in winter, which is obviously a strategy that only works for an invulnerable person that is immune to frostbite and starvation.

It's another thing entirely when you're just so ignorant about stuff like carpentry and blacksmithing and pre-Columbian agriculture that you dismiss what actual experts, or at least people with hobbyist-level experience, are saying. Or when you don't take ten seconds to consider basic commonsense ways of dealing with the objections you're raising.

Will you please either start doing some goddamn research about the stuff you naysay, or (almost as good) shut up?

That's the problem right there - empowerment fantasies where WHITE MAN makes the stupid natives bow to him by his superior intellect (that will just produce penicillin or whatever else is needed from stuff he has on hand regardless of its suitability with help of skilled craftsmen who will appear out of thin air) while failing to consider you will be a random guy without anything to back your words or make anyone listen to you.

The problem is that you yourself are routinely assuming the natives are too stupid or ignorant to perform basic tasks, to figure out applications of simple hand tools that are newly introduced to them, to organize themselves, and so on.

Inverting a prejudice is not the same as removing a prejudice.

Starglider was right to point out that the biggest and possibly insurmountable obstacle here is the 'people skills' aspect, NOT the technological aspect. But that's precisely because the technology (contrary to what you're saying) is a relatively straightforward problem- IF you can resolve the people skills issues and establish yourself as a 'wizard' who makes awesome tools and can teach others how to make awesome tools.

The irony is, the very American societies they want to uplift did the whole 'god king subjugating outlying tribes under his advanced civilization's iron fist' shtick. The result? The whole thing falling apart as soon as Spanish arrived with mass revolt of these very tribes. I didn't saw one thing differing these wildly optimistic delusions from what failed in real life, well, except for bravely ignoring every inconvenient detail but I have my doubts in success of that tactic.

The main catch here is that anyone sane (this does not include Purple) doesn't care if their "empire ruled by a god-king" holds together when Europeans show up. It doesn't have to. It doesn't matter. The "empire" has served its purpose if, by 1490 or so, the natives have iron weapons, better farming tools, a widespread network of carpenters and blacksmiths capable of making tools and structures for their own later use, and a network to disseminate medicines created by the magic box.

As long as you have this in place, it does not matter whether political unity exists. And the advantages of all these things are obvious enough that they have a good chance of surviving even if political unification fails.

That addresses everyone except Purple, who appears (as usual) to be more interested in fantasizing about being a god-king and getting laid than about accomplishing the goal outlined in the scenario.

So please, get your strawmen straight...