Is Ironic actually ironic?

[mr friendly guy]

Occasionally I get feelings of nostalgia, so lets go back to 1996 and revisit Alanis Morisette's song "Ironic."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

Now Alanis was quite big in the 90s and I was unashamedly a fan. I actually analysed this song in high school for English and actually argued it was ironic. From memory I got a pretty good mark. Back then I was aware that people had argued that it wasn't ironic. This is starting to bug me, like a problem you just have to solve. So I have two questions. For the first one

1. Is Morisette's song actually ironic?


Firstly here are definitions of irony I can find

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony?s=t

1.the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning:
the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.
2.Literature.
a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
(especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.
3. Socratic irony.
4. dramatic irony.
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.
7. an objectively sardonic style of speech or writing.

http://literarydevices.net/irony/ in more detail

Now here are the lyrics to the song

An old man turned ninety-eight
He won the lottery and died the next day
It’s a black fly in your Chardonnay
It’s a death row pardon two minutes too late
And isn’t it ironic… don’t you think

It’s like rain on your wedding day
It’s a free ride when you’ve already paid
It’s the good advice that you just didn’t take
Who would’ve thought… it figures

Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought
“Well isn’t this nice…”
And isn’t it ironic… don’t you think

CHORUS

A traffic jam when you’re already late
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break
It’s like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife
It’s meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn’t it ironic…don’t you think
A little too ironic…and, yeah, I really do think…

CHORUS

Life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
Life has a funny, funny way of helping you out
Helping you out

Because this such a pressing question, even news papers like the NY times tried to answer it
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ ... bably-not/

If it rains on your wedding day, that’s a coincidence, not an irony. If you win the lottery and drop dead before claiming the money, it’s good luck followed by bad luck. If you meet the man of your dreams and then meet his beautiful wife, it’s a bummer.

Here is another criticism http://www.copyblogger.com/did-alanis-m ... ony-right/

A traffic jam when you’re already late
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break
It’s like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife
It’s meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn’t it ironic… don’t you think?

Well, no, actually. Those are unfortunate situations, but they are not typically what one would define as ironic.

Now the problem I have with this type of reasoning, the analysis is just on the surface. If you just look at a man winning the lottery and dropping dead, there certainly isn't "use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning." Going beyond the literal words and into expectations people derive from the lines, I can see why you might think there is irony. For example, if you take the man winning the lottery, the expectation is that life is on the up and up, and then when he dies, you have a situation not what you expect.

In fact definition 5 - "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected," would match most of the events in the lyrics. Another example is "meeting the man of my dreams" would certainly seem to have an expectation that they (the man and the narrator) would get together, depending on how you define "man of your dreams", though to me that would imply he must be available which appears not to be the case because he is married. I could make a case that most lines fit definition five or looking beyond the literal meaning and into associations and expectations with the words.

Now I am not the only one who sees is this way. Salon also wrote an article on this song using similar arguments.
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/08/what_ev ... c_partner/

Am I correct? Or am I reading too much into it?
***********************************************************************************

Now onto question 2 which deals with a college humour parody of the song. I just have trouble seeing the irony if I use the same standards Morisette's critics use to judge what is ironic.


(link to the lyrics of the song http://blogs.publishersweekly.com/blogs ... er/?p=3933)

An old man turned ninety-eight, he won the lottery and died the next day…of a shock-induced heart attack
It’s a black fly in your Chardonnay……poured to celebrate your apartment fumigation
It’s a death row pardon two minutes too late…’cause the governor was busy watching Dead Man Walking
And isn’t it ironic…don’t you think

It’s like rain at a dehydration victim’s funeral
It’s a free ride to your bankruptcy trial
It’s the good advice to never listen to me
Who would’ve thought…it figures

Mr. Play It Safe, he was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye
He’d waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought
“Now I’ll never make it to that Fear of Flying seminar”
And isn’t it ironic…don’t you think

It’s like rain flooding an umbrella factory
It’s a free ride to an overpriced car dealership
It’s the good advice from the guy who just got you fired
Who would’ve thought…it figures

A traffic jam when you’re already late…to receive an award for reducing automobile congestion
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break… at the R.J. Reynolds tobacco company
It’s like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife…to rob a soup kitchen
It’s meeting the man of my dreams, and then meeting his beautiful wife…who’s also my relationship therapist
And isn’t it ironic…don’t you think
A little too ironic…yeah, I really do think…

It’s like rain on your wedding day…to the Egyptian sun god Ra
It’s a free ride when you’ve already paid…for a stolen car
It’s the good advice someone advised you not to take
Who would’ve thought…it figures

I have a funny way of defining rhetorical devices that I use in songs
Songs have a funny, funny way of getting things wrong
Getting things wrong

Now my problem is, I can't see why this is ironic given that they rejig Alanis's song to actually be ironic.

If we disregard definition 5 (presumably Morisette's critics aren't working from this definition of irony), and just look at the literal words, I am not sure how it can fit into "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning." In fact, I am not sure how all this fits into the other definitions of irony, which presumably Morisette's critics are using.

For example the line "It’s a death row pardon two minutes too late…’cause the governor was busy watching Dead Man Walking." If you apply the same standards Morisette's critics do, then this line isn't ironic, its just unfortunate or incompetence.

So I need help to try and see why, this parody is considered ironic.

[Simon_Jester]

The original song lyrics mix irony and non-irony, I'd say.

As I see it, irony comes from situations where an expectation is violated in a way related to the expectation.

For example, "rain on your wedding day" is just random bad luck. Rain isn't related to weddings, literally or symbolically. Since there's no connection between the wedding and the rain, there's no irony.

But getting a free ride when you've already paid in advance is at least partially irony, because your expectation is !violated in a way thematically related to the expectation itself. You prepared, you gave something up for your preparations... and yet giving it up was completely unnecessary, because the journey was actually free, not costly.

A better (or more extreme) example of this sort of irony is The Gift of the Magi by O. Henry, a classic short story in which a husband sells his prize watch to buy his wife a set of ornamental combs for her hair... while the wife cuts her long hair and sells it in order to buy her husband an accessory for his watch.

[Lord Revan]

I'd say rain is party symbolic to weddings in that you expect your wedding day to be perfect (or so I'm told as personally me getting married is so unlikely it's not worth considering) so rain would counter to the expectation of perfection in everything (including the weather).

[mr friendly guy]

I can get the rain on your wedding day line. If she said rain on your perfect wedding day, it would be more obvious.

[Simon_Jester]

[shrugs]

Perhaps the problem is that I simply do not share this expectation that a wedding day should be 'perfect.' I read too many of the Roman Stoics, I guess?

[TheFeniX]

Irony is the politician who made a career out of fighting against concealed carry laws shooting an attacker while legally carry a concealed weapon.
Irony is Texas farmers begging for rain due to the drought because it was destroying their crops, then it raining so much about a month later... it flooded and ruined their crops. Though... also a lot of coincidence.
Tragically hilarious was the spokesperson against seat-belt laws dieing in a car-wreck when wearing his seat-belt would have likely lead to only minor injuries. It would have been ironic had he been wearing his seat-belt and that had somehow gotten him killed (such as driving into a lake or something and his belt getting jammed).

Ironic (the song) is basically one big case of coincidence or random shit such as flies in your drinks. Great episode and you learn something. Sorry, I just look for excuses to post links to Futurama.

[muse]

Ironic is ironic in the sense that it's not ironic.
And I hate the song since it was played non-stop on half the radio stations up here.