Could it be no one replied because they didn't feel like sorting out the damn formatting? Use the freaking preview button already. . .
More likely, they were leaving the honour for Mike. Unlike many of the fanboys here, Mike has a real life which demands his attention - a week without checking a particular thread on the boards is hardly unusual (let alone finding time to reply to a ridiculously long post like this one).
One other point before we begin. Here we have an individual (Mike Wong), with a long history of thorough research and an ability to sift through biased opinions to get an insight into the underlying reality. On the other side, we have yourself and your history book (and Azeron, which doesn't do your cause any favours). Now, we have seen first-hand, and many times over, Mr Wong's meticulous commitment to fact - we know nothing of your own reliability, or the possible bias of your primary source (since none of us have access to the book).
So believe me, in a dispute over facts, where we are given a choice between accepting your word, and accepting Mike's, you aren't going to win. He has a track record for reliability (as well as a history of NOT relying on that track record). You have neither. Now, on the other hand, if you are able to convince
Mike that he has made an error in fact, then you will also convince those of us who are accepting Mike's reporting of the facts as being more reliable.
Also, something for those fond of trotting out the "anti-Israel" is "anit-semitic" nonsense. There's an awful lot of Jewish groups on the following list:
http://www.cactus48.com/websites.html
EmperorSolo51 wrote:No, I only stated that I wanted a Polotical and Historical discussion becuase I do not want have a debate about the rights and Wrongs of Judaism. That's why I stuck only with relevant Political and Historical facts.
Unless you believe that Israel is a racist state (i.e. Israel = Judaism) then your statement is nonsensical. Regardles, the question discussed in Mike's article is whether or not Israel's actions are morally justifiable (they aren't), not whether it is possible to push a reset button and somehow magically solve the Middle-East situation (it isn't - I'm hoping the Internet will have the same positive educative effect on Israelis as it is having on the Chinese. That's about the only long term solution I can see)
So, in terms of understanding what has gone on in the Middle-East, the
formation of Israel is most certainly of interest.
EmpSolo wrote:THe Jim Crow laws in the United states, was where the southern STATE governments had laws (All of which were struck down by the Supreme court of the United states) that were in place to keep Blacks in the United States from voting via poll tax and to segregate them from the rest of the populace through fear and lynchings. Is there any proof that Arabs and Druse born Israelis are being segragated and are kept from voting? Hell if I remember correctly, The arab and druse Israelis were one of the essential swing votes that got Sharon elected...
How does the fact that the laws were struck down change the fact that, while they were in effect, those states were operating with a racist government? Doesn't it actually
prove the point that those laws were racist?
All of which is somewhat beside the point. The position of
Israeli non-Jews says nothing about the status of
Palestinians under de facto Israeli rule.
EmpSolo wrote:NexLook, IF one ethnic/religious group is constantly attacking and mudering your civilians. It is uyour job as the state to look out for your people by protecting them. The Term Homicide Bomber comes from the Media in the US because the Term "Suicide-Bomber" was found to be a not accurate description. Israel fires rockets in Police Building becuase they have been found to be used by TeRrorist groups such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al-AQsa martyrs Brigade. THose "homes" were being used as weapons manufactories as stated by CNN, Geraldo Revera, CNN, MSNBC, And other news Media. SChools have also been used as a place for Terroists to teach others thier trade.
And you refuse to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, this could be the result of good PR on the part of the Israelis? Are you disputing the facts of massive bias in the media coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict? Or are you just meekly parroting the "Israel-good-Palestine-bad" rhetoric?
EmpSolo wrote:
No, according to the famed historian Martin Gillbert and his book, Israel: A History, Pages 250, 257-279 , 300, (WHich I have sitting currently on my desk right in front of me so don't call it an appeal to authority).
It
is an appeal to authority, because no-one here is in a position to verify the accuracy of your reporting, nor the accuracy of the original source. Unfortunately, debating the facts of history is one in which citing authoritative references is a necessary evil.
And I'm curious as to what your point was meant to be. How does the money sent to Egypt affect anything? Or how does the poor treatment of the Arab refugees in any way justify the actions of Israel? (Ever heard the phrase 'Two wrongs don't make a right"?).
Precisely how do issues with the intifadah affect the point that Israeli tanks and bulldozers continue to wander into Palestinian territory and knock shit over?
Where do you get the "Thousands of Homes" figures. The only homes destroyed are those belonging to Homicide bombers' families, Used as weapons factories, or bases for terrorist. Give me proof that Israel is collecting taxes from the Palestinians. Where do you get your figures from?
Bwahahahaha. You really
do believe everything the Israelis say, don't you? Is there any of your information that doesn't trace straight back to official Israeli government sources?
Take a look at the news footage mate - you reckon ALL those buidlings were housing terrorists?
*crosses eyes* The Israelis are your friends. Trust the Israelis. The Israelis would never cause careless collateral damage simply because they don't give a shit.
Israeli Jews are allowed to vote in Israeli elections becuase they are Israeli citizens and hold an Israeli passport. Just like I am allowed to vote If If I am residing and working overseas If I am an American and Hold an American Passport. Give proof palestinians pay taxes. Israel gives rations electricty and Waters to the Palestininas becuase they are the only ones who can provide it. The Plaestinians in thier current state can not provide either water or electricity without outside help and I don't the Jordanians or Egyptians or Syrians doing it anytime soon.
See, your analogy is wrong. A better one is that the Israel/Palestine situation is like America annexing Mexico and declaring that Mexican citizens can't vote in elections, but Americans who move to Mexico still can. If America were to then destroy Mexico's infrastructure, such that Mexico became totally reliant on America's assistance, that does
nothing to change the fact that America's actions would be
wrong.
See my points above. The palestinian Authority could do much more if it wasn't so corruot and Arafat stopped giving money to terrorists. That's why the palestinians are calling for a change. THe PA is not a sacraficial lamb, If it were, It would not be giving money to Islamic Terror groups. If the PA were a sacrifcial Lamb, It would not have international rcognition as the official voice of the palestinian people and would not have consulates or a UN Seat.
OK, now you are getting into utterly unsupported speculation. Where is your evidence for all of this money Arafat is supposedly handing over to terrorists? If the CIA have it, why isn't Bush trumpeting it over the airwaves to justify the heavily criticised one-eyed US support for Israel?
And recognition by the UN doesn't make the PA any less of a sacrificial lamb - it just makes it one with a certain amount of credibility (and if it didn't have that, it wouldn't make a very good sacrifice, now, would it?)
You anna talk about pre-1948. Let's talk about Irgun and the Sten group, Hagganah and Theodore Herzl and the Zionist movement in the 1890's. While we're at it, Let's talk about the 1936 Arab revolt in palestine against the British, or How a Arab Nazi war criminal and close freind of Hitler, Haj- Amin al-Huesseni, the grand mufti of Jerusalem called upon the arabs in 46-47 to openly murder Jews in Palestine and how he mentored arafat and co-founded the PLO or how the British detained Halocaust survivors in the Island of Cyprus after World War II and prevented them from immigrating to Palestine!
Yes, many of the Palestinian leaders aren't any better than the Israeli leaders. Jews have copped a raw deal over the years. How does this serve to justify Israel's actions in any way?
Funny, I don't remember you mentioning Haj-amin al Huesenni, or the British dentention camps or the how arab league nations threatning to start thier own Halocuast in 1946?
Because it isn't relevant. The point is that Israel has been demonstrated to be an expansionist warmongering state. The fact that it isn't the only mongrel in the region, or that there are undertsandable reasons for how it got that way, doesn't change the immorality of Israel's subsequent actions.
I notice you fail to mention that the Jews
also found that plan to be unacceptable. And I believe what the Arabs were objecting to was the UN trying to take their land away. . .
The Israelis after the war made arabs and druse who stayed in Israel, full automatic citizenship and and allowed the Dtuse to serve in the army as they had done during the fighting. THe arabs living in Gaza and West Bank were not given citizenship by either Jordan and Egypt.
Evidence for any of this?
In order for a nation to go to war you need Casus Belli, a Provocation. Israel had the rights to declre war becuase it was provocated:
Legally, you are correct. Morally, the fact that Israel deliberately engineered the provocation, and then massively over-reacted in order to obtain their offensive goals, remains wrong.
::snip duelling quotes, since I don't know enough independently to comment::
Israel has abided by every UN resolution fora cease-fire, from the First truce in the summer of 1948 to thecease-fire in Lebanon. The Palestinian Authority led by Yassir Arafat has broken all cease fireaand other agreements since Oslo in 1993.
Yeah, right. Israel breaks agreements right-left-and-centre. No-one notices because of the potential political costs of noticing (far easier to pretend it isn't happening, than to acknowledge it and attempt to justify not doing anything about it).
First the NY times is a Extremley liberal Paper and has known to be antiIsraeli and may very well have misquoted Dayan. I am skepitical. Can you provide me a link?
Ahh, so those who make reports critical of Israel are unreliable and misquoting, while those who toe the official Israeli party line are, of course, reporting the facts exactly as they happened?
First Off, I never said the Allon Plan was workable. 2nd. The Allon Plan was drawn up becuase the Heshemite Kingdom of Jordan was more than 60% made of of Palestinians. The more than half the population of Jordan considers themselves Palestinians.The palestinians had always wanted to unite Israel (Palestrine) and Jordan into a greater palestine. It was only logical to give give Parts of the West bank and gaza to Jordan becuase of this fact. However, Because the Palestinians terrorist organizations in Jordan tried to overthrow King Abdullah, the Jordanians rejected it.
And again, how is any of this relevant to the injutices perpetrateed by the Israeli state? It doesn't matter that her neighbours aren't particularly just, either.
::snip more duelling quotes::
So you are telling me it is not right for an American President to name the the Presidential Resort after his own son?
No, he's telling you anyone skilled in international diplomacy (or for that matter, anyone who wasn't a complete moron) would recognise that such subtleties can be seen as sending a message.
Yassir Arafat has total near total authority of Plaestinian areas. He sends terrorists to jail then releases them 6 months later when no-body is looking. He has complete control of the PA security and Police. Has the ability to hire and fire governors of the west bank and Gaza. He recieves billions in international aid and his aides with his authority buy weapons from Iran.
Oh yes, total authority. Tell me again why the Israeli's seem to be able to place him under house arrest pretty much at will?
Ahh, what's the point? If you're really interested in developing an informed opinion, instead of the lapping up the official line from the Israeli government, follow the link my next post (yes, the fact that is nearly 2 AM did indeed play a HUGE part in my decision to end this post).
"People should buy our toaster because it toasts bread the best, not because it has the only plug that fits in the outlet" - Robert Morris, Almaden Research Center (IBM)
"If you have any faith in the human race you have too much." - Enlightenment
