How "good" is the SS-N-22 Sunburn?

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

I've heard that this missle has been causing shit fits in the US military because of its payload, speed, a low flight abilities. Is any of this true?

[Tsyroc]

I've heard that this missle has been causing shit fits in the US military because of its payload, speed, a low flight abilities. Is any of this true?

I recall there being a fair amount of respect for it and some professional concern when I was in the Navy back in the early 90's but I don't remember anyone freaking out about it.

[Vympel]

You don't want it fired at you if you can help it. Real name is Moskit; the two new Project 956EM Sovremenny destroyers being built for China (on top of the two 956E destroyers already delivered) will have extended range versions (normal range of Moskit: 250km). Against several 'vanilla' enemy surface combatants (say some European corvette or destroyer) equipped with say, Harpoons, a Sovremenny with it's 8 Moskits is a serious threat- it can fire first- however a US carrier battle group has little, if anything, to worry about (it'll be sunk before it fires). Interception is problematic due to speed, size and altitude (very low). However, I guess you can hit it with SM-2/SM-3 missiles directed by AEGIS before it goes over to terminal attack stage (the part where it flies low). Skimmer should know more.

[phongn]

Things like ESSM and RAM should also be able to engage it on its terminal run; Phalanix IB probably doesn't stand much of a chance.

[Hyperion]

I heard from one of my friends on the Vinson that about the only hope in hell against that type of missile and the Silkworms(?) was to put people on the side where it was coming from and just spray the water and pray someone clips it. Apparently the Phalanx PDCs don't really do well against them.


(btw, I don't remember if it was the Silkworm or some other missile, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

[Tsyroc]

(btw, I don't remember if it was the Silkworm or some other missile, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

I wouldn't think it's a Silkworm. They are pretty old and even ECM works pretty well against them.

[Vympel]

I heard from one of my friends on the Vinson that about the only hope in hell against that type of missile and the Silkworms(?) was to put people on the side where it was coming from and just spray the water and pray someone clips it. Apparently the Phalanx PDCs don't really do well against them.


(btw, I don't remember if it was the Silkworm or some other missile, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

To suggest that guys with rifles or machine guns on the side aiming at an anti-ship missile that is flying at Mach 2.5 and weighs 4,000kg, armored, no less- would be more effective than a directed Phalanx CIWS ... ack. It burns. The problem Phalanx has is that the missile is moving too fast and simply hitting it with a few 20mm rounds isn't going to stop the missile dead in it's tracks- the flaming wreckage of 4,000kg is still going to hit you, at that range.

The notion that you could hit any missile with a rifle, for that matter, is outrageous.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The notion that you could hit any missile with a rifle, for that matter, is outrageous.

And because of that we can probably guarentee that Hyperion will claim that he's either seen it done or has done it himself.

[Tsyroc]

I have heard people say that with some missles your best chance of stopping them is by putting a "wall of water" between the ship and the missile. This is implying that you're going to unload everything you can and even then the odds aren't good.

Maybe that's what got "telephoned" to Hyperion. The wall of water bit isn't really an accurate statement but I've heard similar things said often enough. It's not meant to be taken as a fact.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I have heard people say that with some missles your best chance of stopping them is by putting a "wall of water" between the ship and the missile. This is implying that you're going to unload everything you can and even then the odds aren't good.

Maybe that's what got "telephoned" to Hyperion. The wall of water bit isn't really an accurate statement but I've heard similar things said often enough. It's not meant to be taken as a fact.

Was'nt that from Red Storm Rising when the P-3 Orion launches a harpoon at the freighter carrying the supplies for the Soviet attack on Iceland?

[Tsyroc]

I can't recall. I read that book back in '91.

It may have been in there. The "wall of water" statement is commonly used in the Navy.

[Sea Skimmer]

The notion that you could hit any missile with a rifle, for that matter, is outrageous.

Hyperion full of shit? Who would have thought…

Anyway Silkworm is Phalanx fodder. RAM and soon ESSM can handle Sunburn easily enough, so can the newer SM-2’s.

The issue of fragments is the big one, Phalanx can hit a Sunburn and bring it down. But the rule of thumb for being safe against from a high speed missile is basically to multiply the mach factor by a thousand meters. Thus to be safe from a mach 2.5 missile you need to hit it at 2500 meters. A mach 1 missile needs to be hit at 900 meters. Phalanx has an effective range of only 1,500 meters. So if it hits a Sunburn the ships still going to suffer heavily from the result. However a faster missile is simply harder to hit with a gun as well, since a much larger lead is required. But the guns are still worth having, exploding the missile and eating the fragments beats having the whole thing slam intact, fragments wont sink the ship or burn it out. For this reason the USN is generally mounting RAM alongside Phalanx mounts, rather the replacing them.

There are however other gun CIWS that are still fully effective. Italy uses a much larger gun, 76mm, which fires bursts of guided shells out to several kilometers. It’s quite effective, but OTO’s high end 76mm guns are not very reliable because of there high rates of fire, 120rpm in the most recent “Super Rapid” version. There’s also a Swedish 57mm automatic gun firing at 220rpm which sprays out proximity fused shells to accomplish the same task. However both these systems are heavy for there caliber and need a lot of space, so it would be hard to have more then one on a single ship. Though they can also serve as the main gun.

Moving back to Sunburn. It’s a nice missile but it is also a heavy one and the range is not very impressive. If you could salvo all eight missiles, no ship carry more then that, at a single major USN warship it would be in some trouble, but that is unlikely to happen.

As for the PLAN having gotten them, the nice Russian arm’s dealers changed the labels on them and sold the Chinese missile’s which where years out of date and didn’t work correctly. After much hilarity the Chinese got a fresh batch,

[phongn]

Was'nt that from Red Storm Rising when the P-3 Orion launches a harpoon at the freighter carrying the supplies for the Soviet attack on Iceland?

No. The freighter in question did a hard turn so that the ship tilted in the general direction of impact - thus when the Harpoon hit it did so in a relatively high spot.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Was'nt that from Red Storm Rising when the P-3 Orion launches a harpoon at the freighter carrying the supplies for the Soviet attack on Iceland?

No. The freighter in question did a hard turn so that the ship tilted in the general direction of impact - thus when the Harpoon hit it did so in a relatively high spot.

You mean sort of like what the Sheffield did, kinda?

I do believe if you have to use a gun then the Mk.8 114mm DP isn't too bad provided you hit the target. The HMS Antelope shot down an Exocet at 9 klicks, IIRC.

It will be nice when we have FEL installed though.

[phongn]

I do believe if you have to use a gun then the Mk.8 114mm DP isn't too bad provided you hit the target. The HMS Antelope shot down an Exocet at 9 klicks, IIRC.

Exocet is also grossly inferior to most modern ASMs. I'd like to see someone try and shoot down a Moskit with a 114mm DP.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I do believe if you have to use a gun then the Mk.8 114mm DP isn't too bad provided you hit the target. The HMS Antelope shot down an Exocet at 9 klicks, IIRC.

Exocet is also grossly inferior to most modern ASMs. I'd like to see someone try and shoot down a Moskit with a 114mm DP.

If it goes in a straight enough line at speed and you detect it, who knows. Exocet is also a lot smaller than the Moskit last I checked.

[Tsyroc]

If it goes in a straight enough line at speed and you detect it, who knows. Exocet is also a lot smaller than the Moskit last I checked.

The main trick with the Exocet is knowing that it's been fired at you. It's relatively short range and it doesn't have it's radar homer active for very long before it hits so it helps a lot to detect the firing platform while it's going through the targeting mode.

[Sea Skimmer]

I do believe if you have to use a gun then the Mk.8 114mm DP isn't too bad provided you hit the target. The HMS Antelope shot down an Exocet at 9 klicks, IIRC.

Correction, HMS Antelope claims to have shot down an Exocet. In fact it's a pretty absurd and unconfirmed claim, the Mk8 proved near useless against aircraft in the conflict and while very poor compared to current missiles the Exocet is a tiny hard to hit target compared to the jet trainers which are among the planes the Mk8 failed to knock down. Your range figure is off regardless by about a factor of three. But its more likely the missile simply crashed on its own. Exocet reliability is horrible.

Maybe that's what got "telephoned" to Hyperion. The wall of water bit isn't really an accurate statement but I've heard similar things said often enough. It's not meant to be taken as a fa

Throwing up a wall of water is a real anti aircraft tactic, but it only works if you happen to have several gun cruisers in your taskforce, basically you shoot the main battery so that the shells hit the water ahead of incoming torpedo planes, forcing them to fly through the shell splashes. Your unlikely to bring them down but it will throw off there aim, though in one action USS Colombia shot down two Betty's with just 26 rounds of 6 inch fire using the method.

A related tactic generally referred to as a "water screen" was also practiced by some WW1 battleship, you had the secondary battery fire into the water in-between you and the enemy so that the shell splashes screw up there range finding. It also may screw over your own, but you'd only be doing it if you were on the losing end of the gun duel. The only example of this being done in action that comes to mind was HMS Warspite at Jutland when she was being engaged by about five German dreadnoughts.

Both these tactics weren't really formal, but where well known to captains as being an option.

[Sea Skimmer]

The main trick with the Exocet is knowing that it's been fired at you. It's relatively short range and it doesn't have it's radar homer active for very long before it hits so it helps a lot to detect the firing platform while it's going through the targeting mode.

The most recent version can reach out 130km actually; it has a turbojet rather then a solid fuel rocket motor. Course no one has yet fired an anti ship missile over the horizon in combat so that's likely never going to be an issue, few nations will be buying it anyway. Subsonic anti ship missiles are fodder against modern defences, and dated defences can be dealt with using older missiles.

[Tsyroc]

The most recent version can reach out 130km actually; it has a turbojet rather then a solid fuel rocket motor. Course no one has yet fired an anti ship missile over the horizon in combat so that's likely never going to be an issue, few nations will be buying it anyway. Subsonic anti ship missiles are fodder against modern defences, and dated defences can be dealt with using older missiles.

That's a lot longer range than the one's I'm used to. Still, with OTH targeting there's usually going to be some sort of tip off that they are getting ready to fire at you unless they are using sattelites to get targeting data. Of course that depends on whether everyone is paying close attention to their gear.

[Audrie_Dawn]

I heard from one of my friends on the Vinson that about the only hope in hell against that type of missile and the Silkworms(?) was to put people on the side where it was coming from and just spray the water and pray someone clips it. Apparently the Phalanx PDCs don't really do well against them.

That sounds more like a desperation tactic than a useful countermeasure.

[Hyperion]

I heard from one of my friends on the Vinson that about the only hope in hell against that type of missile and the Silkworms(?) was to put people on the side where it was coming from and just spray the water and pray someone clips it. Apparently the Phalanx PDCs don't really do well against them.

That sounds more like a desperation tactic than a useful countermeasure.

That would be my guess, or just more of the usual enlisted sailor tall tales. (I have generally figured the truth is somewhere in between)