#*$)# Standards Wars.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2004-01-05 03:08am

I dont think its about the recording format at all (even though the raw specs for HD recordings are far more than DVD can handle -- they can do it, but not with long duration videos), but rather about the fact that DVD is no longer secure from large-scale pirating except via draconian legal means (which isnt enough)

this isnt so much about consumer choice & security, but about the copyright holders' (hollywood) need to rape the consumer every which way they can

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-05 12:06pm

Well, no, it's both. Since the FCC finally got off their ass and forced the implementation of ATSC (something they were supposed to have done years ago), Hollywood can finally start seriously considering putting out HD titles.

The addition of more sophisticated copy-protection schemas is just gravy (in particular, BD-ROM appears to implement AES128 encryption)

Ypoknons · Post by **Ypoknons** » 2004-01-06 09:23am

...And to think that most everyone in Hong Kong is still satisfied with their VCD's....

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-06 09:42am

VCD and SVCDs suck.

Ypoknons · Post by **Ypoknons** » 2004-01-06 10:28am

Precisely. It is horrid even on my basic family 29" TV... but it has always amused me that some people living in Hong Kong say "if they are can hear it, or make it out on the screen, then it is good enough". Of course, legal VCDs are 1/3 of the price of a legal DVD here.

[Off-topic rant]

That is why there is a popularity of VCDs, Geforce 4 MX, stock earbuds (or EX-70s, which kinda suck too) and $10USD computer speakers around. I'm not asking that everyone jump to getting Orpheus headphones and Geforce 5950 Ultras immediately, but I just am both intriguied and frustrated some of Hong Kong's lack of appricatation for finer video and audio equipment.

Do this kind of people, who insist that Geforce 4 MX 440's and VHS are good enough for them in all circumstances, even if they have the money to afford better, common all around the world? (I'm basically talking about voluntary stinginess, not that brought on by lack of money). Sorry, off topic rant.

[/Off-topic rant]

I don't know, HD-DVD seems to have promise. I agree with Kernel on this one - internationally, not enough people own HDTV sets as of right now, and while BD-DVD's space is cool, if there is another price increase per title for high quality media I will go mad. Simplicity of production for me.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2004-01-06 02:42pm

phongn wrote:VCD and SVCDs suck.

that depends on the encode... I did some experimenting with recording TV shows (SG1 & Farscape) awhile back. captured as (nearly lossless under the HuffYUV codec) AVI @ full 720x480, then did a 2-pass encode to VBR XVCD 352x480 @ 1800kbps average... the results were quite impressive. it was quite difficult to tell the diff between the original & the XVCD encode on TV. granted Im not talking about HD here, but the encode was far far superior to (S)VHS (almost exactly what I would expect from a D2 encode). to my eyes anyway.

still tho... my next TV will likely be HD. just gotta get the $$$$

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-06 03:02pm

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:That depends on the encode... I did some experimenting with recording TV shows (SG1 & Farscape) awhile back. captured as (nearly lossless under the HuffYUV codec) AVI @ full 720x480, then did a 2-pass encode to VBR XVCD 352x480 @ 1800kbps average... the results were quite impressive. it was quite difficult to tell the diff between the original & the XVCD encode on TV. granted Im not talking about HD here, but the encode was far far superior to (S)VHS (almost exactly what I would expect from a D2 encode). to my eyes anyway.

Well, I was talking about movies on SVCDs, as opposed to generally shorter TV shows. SVHS blows, anyways, I used it for some years in high school. There was much rejoicing when we switched to DVCAM.

HuffYUV is actually lossless compression (within the limits of your capture card), isn't it?

still tho... my next TV will likely be HD. just gotta get the $$$$

Too bad they don't make many (if any) TVs capable of displaying 1080p

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2004-01-06 03:47pm

oh yes... I wanna get a DVCAM soon. likely itll be the panasonic PV-GS70 3-chip (definitely no $$$$ for anything more right now). BTW, in case you didnt hear, panasonic is definitely moving towards solid state -- using SD media locked in a PCMCIA card -- recording in their pro-level cams. expect one sometime this year if the info is right. theyre eventually even gonna do HD recording in-cam that way (apparently by 2005-6)

yep... huffy is lossless (at least effectively so. I cant tell... )

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-06 06:00pm

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:oh yes... I wanna get a DVCAM soon. likely itll be the panasonic PV-GS70 3-chip (definitely no $$$$ for anything more right now). BTW, in case you didnt hear, panasonic is definitely moving towards solid state -- using SD media locked in a PCMCIA card -- recording in their pro-level cams. expect one sometime this year if the info is right. theyre eventually even gonna do HD recording in-cam that way (apparently by 2005-6)

That's a lot of space needed, isn't it? I mean, basic DV/DVCAM/DVPRO is a 25-megabit stream, nevermind the more professional DVCPRO50 that Panasonic seems to pimp.

EDIT: That PV-GS70 is nice for a little hand-held cam, but I still have fond memories of my high school's Sony DSR-PD150s

yep... huffy is lossless (at least effectively so. I cant tell... )

It's lossless, but it is subject to the constraints of your capture card.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2004-01-06 09:48pm

you might REALLY be interested in this article then (it seems that panasonic defines HD as being in the 100Mbit/sec range ie DVCPro100):

the Panasonic SD based DVCAM

I expect that prices will come down a bit, since with the release of the SVAV100, panasonic seems to be indicating that solid-state is where its' lineup (both pro and consumer) is going -- no tape, no disks, no moving parts except the lens.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2004-01-06 10:01pm

OMG... I FINALLY made Jedi Knight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-01-07 01:06am

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:that depends on the encode... I did some experimenting with recording TV shows (SG1 & Farscape) awhile back. captured as (nearly lossless under the HuffYUV codec) AVI @ full 720x480, then did a 2-pass encode to VBR XVCD 352x480 @ 1800kbps average... the results were quite impressive. it was quite difficult to tell the diff between the original & the XVCD encode on TV. granted Im not talking about HD here, but the encode was far far superior to (S)VHS (almost exactly what I would expect from a D2 encode). to my eyes anyway.

I'd have to question your visual acuity, honestly. Even at the sky-high bitrates the VCD spec(s) use, MPEG-1 still manages to macro-block the shit out of high-action scenes. If you watch that encode on a monitor, you'll see a difference. NTSC televisions' characteristic "blur the shit out of the image" doesn't mean that the encode it good quality; it just means that it's watchable from 10 feet away.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2004-01-07 01:46am

well, sure. looking at it on any real monitor will reveal its inherent nastiness. but I was speaking to how my particular encodes looked to me, in comparison to (S)VHS, on a standard TV screen -- which was my intended output from the start, along with being able to see them on friends' DVD players... thats all.

if I was going for best quality/compression, I would have done just about everything differently, but my aim was to see if XVCD could be used to archive episodes at good or better quality with 1 ep/CD, and thus replace tape for that purpose. (I used to tape ALOT of shows, and was running out of space to put the tapes... thankfully that habit's been busted)

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-07 11:12am

If you're archiving via VCD, I do hope you're using quality media, yes? (Mitsui, Taiyo Yuden, Mitsubishi Chem)