from a single aquarium on the planet. That puts put data-gathering techniquest to shame. Nothing you say or do is safe from the dreaded klingons. 
the klingons VS modern earth
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NecronLord
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Actually the Klingons have technological parity with the feds. in some areas they are more advanced. {they had site-to-site first} As for wiretapping They wouldn't need to, just do what the cia do and monitor the output. In ST:V uhura uses klingon communications systems to pick up whalesong from a single aquarium on the planet. That puts put data-gathering techniquest to shame. Nothing you say or do is safe from the dreaded klingons.
from a single aquarium on the planet. That puts put data-gathering techniquest to shame. Nothing you say or do is safe from the dreaded klingons. Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
About encription:
There are totally unbreakable codes available nowadays (using Ont-time pads or TAP-DANCE) which use a totally random key generator.
Also:
Whats to stop us from using a 512 bit or 1024 bit or 4096 bit key(2^4096 possible combinations...)?
The only reason that isn't used is, because it is not needed nowadays. It would however not be very difficult to put into use.
Yogi: Please read the first post: They want Earth intact, not kill everyone and colonize it.
phongn: I don't think we'll get pumped up Lasers by then (otherwise the Star Wars program would have long been put into use).
Necronlord: And they did that everytime they charged enemy troops...
There are totally unbreakable codes available nowadays (using Ont-time pads or TAP-DANCE) which use a totally random key generator.
Also:
Whats to stop us from using a 512 bit or 1024 bit or 4096 bit key(2^4096 possible combinations...)?
The only reason that isn't used is, because it is not needed nowadays. It would however not be very difficult to put into use.
Yogi: Please read the first post: They want Earth intact, not kill everyone and colonize it.
phongn: I don't think we'll get pumped up Lasers by then (otherwise the Star Wars program would have long been put into use).
Necronlord: And they did that everytime they charged enemy troops...
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NecronLord
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?D.Turtle wrote:
Necronlord: And they did that everytime they charged enemy troops...
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Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
TheDarkling: Can we agree on the follwing:
In a ground battle, the Klingons would loose or sustain massive losses.
In a full-scale invasion, the Klingons would need a massive personell advantage over the Earths troops.
- The Klingons would have one advantage, because they can use their spaceships to go from place to place (The effectiveness of jammers against transporters is debatable, but even if jamming works they can use their spaceships). This means they can have all their forces deployed from place to place.
Intelligence-wise the Klingons rule (battle-field intelligence, as their actual IQ is hardly great
)
Over a long campaign, the Klingons could get control over most of Earth. However, they would always need a massive force on Earth, as resistance forces could cause massive losses on the Klingon side.
Overall, though the Klingons could get control over Earth, it would only cause a massive loss of ressources and personell on the Klingon side.
Now, you could say this is a concession, because I said in the beginning that the Klingons would be massacred. However, when I say massive losses I mean at least in the range of hundreds of millions of dead and wounded to take control of the whole Earth. In the beginning I interpreted the Klingon force to mean just a few ships (meaning tens or hundreds of thousands of troops, which would clearly be insufficient).
Also, the whole destroying of the infrastructure goes against the scenario put forth in the beginning of this thread (That the Klingons want Earth intact)
In a ground battle, the Klingons would loose or sustain massive losses.
In a full-scale invasion, the Klingons would need a massive personell advantage over the Earths troops.
- The Klingons would have one advantage, because they can use their spaceships to go from place to place (The effectiveness of jammers against transporters is debatable, but even if jamming works they can use their spaceships). This means they can have all their forces deployed from place to place.
Intelligence-wise the Klingons rule (battle-field intelligence, as their actual IQ is hardly great
)Over a long campaign, the Klingons could get control over most of Earth. However, they would always need a massive force on Earth, as resistance forces could cause massive losses on the Klingon side.
Overall, though the Klingons could get control over Earth, it would only cause a massive loss of ressources and personell on the Klingon side.
Now, you could say this is a concession, because I said in the beginning that the Klingons would be massacred. However, when I say massive losses I mean at least in the range of hundreds of millions of dead and wounded to take control of the whole Earth. In the beginning I interpreted the Klingon force to mean just a few ships (meaning tens or hundreds of thousands of troops, which would clearly be insufficient).
Also, the whole destroying of the infrastructure goes against the scenario put forth in the beginning of this thread (That the Klingons want Earth intact)
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TheDarkling
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They want earth intact but some damage is needed - basicallyu if they want every flower and tree to remain in place them may aswell go back home because it isnt going to happen.
Why exactly do the Klingons want earth anyway? the tech is of no use all they could possibly want is slave labour so totaling a few cities is fine.
The Klingons can also win on the ground because they can put 10,000 (or however many troops they have) troops into every fight whereas the earths forces are spread thin.
All the Klingons need to do is total a few cities and kill anything that gets near an oil field - simple victory by attrition.
Why exactly do the Klingons want earth anyway? the tech is of no use all they could possibly want is slave labour so totaling a few cities is fine.
The Klingons can also win on the ground because they can put 10,000 (or however many troops they have) troops into every fight whereas the earths forces are spread thin.
All the Klingons need to do is total a few cities and kill anything that gets near an oil field - simple victory by attrition.
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TrailerParkJawa
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I think the Klingons would eventually lose if they are not going to bombard the planet heavily.
I would go for massive amounts of militia and light infantry. Make it a guerilla war that bleds them dry.
Start handing out SMAW's, LAW's, rifles, etc. to as many Terrans as you can. THis is a war for survival after all. I think since we are fighting for our home planet concerns over causulties would be much different than they are today.
Fuck man, even a bow and arrow would shock the crap out of a bunch of Klingons with knives.
I would go for massive amounts of militia and light infantry. Make it a guerilla war that bleds them dry.
Start handing out SMAW's, LAW's, rifles, etc. to as many Terrans as you can. THis is a war for survival after all. I think since we are fighting for our home planet concerns over causulties would be much different than they are today.
Fuck man, even a bow and arrow would shock the crap out of a bunch of Klingons with knives.
Sixty five years ago, the most powerful code out there was the German Enigma Code which was pretty much considered uncrakable. Any modern TI-82 would make the Enigma code it's bitch in a short amount of time. Klingons are at least several hundred years more advanced. They would anally violate any modern code.phongn wrote:Don't ask me, I just know that brute-forcing a code with a large key size is a no-go.
Plus, this doesn't detract much from my original point, which was to use the Birds of Prey to make ground assaults. They can pretty mcuh sense any nuclear weapon heading their way and vamoose, and I doubt that any modern force can stand up to a Bird of Prey de-cloaking a few meters away and spewing out disruptor fire.
Alrighty then, just watched another disgracful episode of Enterprise and if the Klingons want to invade Earth I say let them.......
I just watched a group of 7 Klingons that the poor little dude on a colony described as "have you ever seen a Klingon in battle" insinuating that they are bad ass, walk in a nice neat and tight group up a hill toward a trench line with 5 or 6 defenders with energy type rifles. The only other group that did worst tacticly was the defenders cuz they didn't just shoot the stupid Klingons they wanted to lead them into some bull shit trap.
Klingons have the tatical capacity of a warm bucket of sithspit. Bring them on, Earth can take them easily.
I just watched a group of 7 Klingons that the poor little dude on a colony described as "have you ever seen a Klingon in battle" insinuating that they are bad ass, walk in a nice neat and tight group up a hill toward a trench line with 5 or 6 defenders with energy type rifles. The only other group that did worst tacticly was the defenders cuz they didn't just shoot the stupid Klingons they wanted to lead them into some bull shit trap.
Klingons have the tatical capacity of a warm bucket of sithspit. Bring them on, Earth can take them easily.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
That's a poor analogy. Enigma didn't have that many permutations and thus even a modern calculator could brute-force it given time. There were only 3.6 million possibilities, after all. (26^4 * 8) Secondly, there were weaknesses in the system - and not all are in the cypher!.Yogi wrote:Sixty five years ago, the most powerful code out there was the German Enigma Code which was pretty much considered uncrakable. Any modern TI-82 would make the Enigma code it's bitch in a short amount of time. Klingons are at least several hundred years more advanced. They would anally violate any modern code.phongn wrote:Don't ask me, I just know that brute-forcing a code with a large key size is a no-go.
Comparing a system with only 3.5e6 possibilities with something like AES is simply idiotic.
Last edited by phongn on 2002-10-30 10:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
No. Breaking Engima involved capturing code-books and miscellaneous other ways detailed here: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~wdj/enigma_machine.htmoberon wrote:Did Enigma require looking for primes?
No it isn't! Back then, brute forcing 3.5e6 combinations was also considered unthinkable! They didn't even have the freaking EINAC yet, just a bunch of people with penciles, pens, and possibly a few multiplying machines. Even when Britian seriously began invistigating code breaking, none of their computers would be able to stand up to a Gameboy! The FX Chip on the Starfox Supernintendo cartrage would pound the crap out of the EINAC. With that sort of computing technology, 3.5e6 = impossible.phongn wrote:That's a poor analogy. Enigma didn't have that many permutations and thus even a modern calculator could brute-force it given time. There were only 3.6 million possibilities, after all. (26^4 * 8) Secondly, there were weaknesses in the system - and not all are in the cypher!.
Comparing a system with only 3.5e6 possibilities with something like AES is simply idiotic.
In another sixty years, some computer on sombody's portable camera which does real time encoding into MPEG-4 complient streams (or whatever they'll be using) will be beating the crap out of the computer I'm using now. Their computer would be able to crack OUR codes open as well. This is the beauty of exponential growth.
Real-time encoding pales in comparison to doing a keysearch of AES's entire space. Think for a moment rather than being a technology fanboy and saying "oh, they'll have enough power!"
If they'll be able to crack the code on open, it'll be because some sort of mathematical flaw was discovered and widely disseminated. It, incidentially, is also why you can break Enigma on a TI-89 - the way to break it is fairly well known.
If they'll be able to crack the code on open, it'll be because some sort of mathematical flaw was discovered and widely disseminated. It, incidentially, is also why you can break Enigma on a TI-89 - the way to break it is fairly well known.
Question #1: If you went back to 1942 and said "In the future, there will be a handheld device that can calculate 3.5e6 possibilities in a reasonable amount of time." would they call you a technology fanboy or not?phongn wrote:Real-time encoding pales in comparison to doing a keysearch of AES's entire space. Think for a moment rather than being a technology fanboy and saying "oh, they'll have enough power!"
Question #2: Has it come to pass?
Question #3: What evidence do you have that technological advancement is going to slow down to the point where the diffrence between technology levels won't be as great, or even greater?
It was stated that they didn't want it a bombarded ruin. The major cities only take up a VERY small percentage of total surface area. They don't have to set their disruptors to "atmoize" and vape everything. Besides, the military bases will EVENTUALLY have to be destroyed one way or another.D.Turtle wrote:Yogi: Please read the first post: They want Earth intact, not kill everyone and colonize it.
Yes, they would. It doesn't change the fact that there's nothing projected at all, not even in the wildest fantasies of quantum computing scientists, that will allow you to instantly crack an encryption algorithm in such a fashion even centuries down the road.
You brought up the point that the Klingons could break any of our encryption systems. The only evidence that you offered was an attack on an alternate-timeline system, of which no evidence is available - other than that he used a password. For all the audience knows it could have been stored as plaintext on the hard drive and thus easy-pickings for the tricorder. As such, you've provided little evidence to support your argument.
Furthermore, if we assume that the onboard computers are in the exaflop range (and I should remind you that Data is only in the teraflop range) they couldn't break the system in a reasonable amount of time with a basic brute force attack. You also assume that the crew has trained cryptologists capable of breaking codes, which I don't see on your average Klingon ship.
You brought up the point that the Klingons could break any of our encryption systems. The only evidence that you offered was an attack on an alternate-timeline system, of which no evidence is available - other than that he used a password. For all the audience knows it could have been stored as plaintext on the hard drive and thus easy-pickings for the tricorder. As such, you've provided little evidence to support your argument.
Furthermore, if we assume that the onboard computers are in the exaflop range (and I should remind you that Data is only in the teraflop range) they couldn't break the system in a reasonable amount of time with a basic brute force attack. You also assume that the crew has trained cryptologists capable of breaking codes, which I don't see on your average Klingon ship.
Instantly? I'm very sure it will take some time. Fortunatly, the Klingons have plenty of that, and plenty of things to do in the meantime.phongn wrote:Yes, they would. It doesn't change the fact that there's nothing projected at all, not even in the wildest fantasies of quantum computing scientists, that will allow you to instantly crack an encryption algorithm in such a fashion even centuries down the road.
Trichoiders are routinely used to hack systems, otherwise there would not be a "hack system" option on it. Since the Federation is used to dealing with more advanced races, it should have some resonable power in hacking alien counsles. As for hacking 20th century tech, the terminal involved was protecting important information, as well as being protected by whatever the guy could get from 29th century tech (he wasn't using it to its full potential, but it was more advanced than conventional technology). I seriously doubt the password was stored as plain text since freaking Windows NT has better protection than that, and I doubt he was using Windows NT (or anything worse).phongn wrote:You brought up the point that the Klingons could break any of our encryption systems. The only evidence that you offered was an attack on an alternate-timeline system, of which no evidence is available - other than that he used a password. For all the audience knows it could have been stored as plaintext on the hard drive and thus easy-pickings for the tricorder. As such, you've provided little evidence to support your argument.
Yeah, I know. All Klingons are warriors. You can go through the entire Empire and not findone doctor or engineer or stellar cartographer or philosipher or anyone who wasn't a muscle bound brute. Face it, it takes all kinds to run a functioning starship, and even College Fraternaties, more brute-like than anything science fiction writers can some up with, know the values of having one or two "smart people" around who know emough about Cryptography to crack a three hundred year old encryption code.phongn wrote:Furthermore, if we assume that the onboard computers are in the exaflop range (and I should remind you that Data is only in the teraflop range) they couldn't break the system in a reasonable amount of time with a basic brute force attack. You also assume that the crew has trained cryptologists capable of breaking codes, which I don't see on your average Klingon ship.
How much time? Years? Months? Weeks? No-one has infinate time.Yogi wrote:Instantly? I'm very sure it will take some time. Fortunatly, the Klingons have plenty of that, and plenty of things to do in the meantime.phongn wrote:Yes, they would. It doesn't change the fact that there's nothing projected at all, not even in the wildest fantasies of quantum computing scientists, that will allow you to instantly crack an encryption algorithm in such a fashion even centuries down the road.
You'd be suprised. First of all, even high-level people are notorious for using weak passwords (the tricorder could have done a dictionary attack, for one) and the machine may have also used weak encryption. The original EFS that shipped with Windows was notoriously insecure. You'reTrichoiders are routinely used to hack systems, otherwise there would not be a "hack system" option on it. Since the Federation is used to dealing with more advanced races, it should have some resonable power in hacking alien counsles. As for hacking 20th century tech, the terminal involved was protecting important information, as well as being protected by whatever the guy could get from 29th century tech (he wasn't using it to its full potential, but it was more advanced than conventional technology). I seriously doubt the password was stored as plain text since freaking Windows NT has better protection than that, and I doubt he was using Windows NT (or anything worse).phongn wrote:You brought up the point that the Klingons could break any of our encryption systems. The only evidence that you offered was an attack on an alternate-timeline system, of which no evidence is available - other than that he used a password. For all the audience knows it could have been stored as plaintext on the hard drive and thus easy-pickings for the tricorder. As such, you've provided little evidence to support your argument.
I never said that a ship was comprised of nothing but warriors. What I did note was that there were unlikely to be trained cryptologists onboard. Maybe not even enough to make a go at even an ancient cryptosystem (again, don't bring up Enigma - that thing had serious weaknesses that were uncovered rather quickly and the Germans ran under the assumption that it was unbreakable.)phongn wrote:Yeah, I know. All Klingons are warriors. You can go through the entire Empire and not findone doctor or engineer or stellar cartographer or philosipher or anyone who wasn't a muscle bound brute. Face it, it takes all kinds to run a functioning starship, and even College Fraternaties, more brute-like than anything science fiction writers can some up with, know the values of having one or two "smart people" around who know emough about Cryptography to crack a three hundred year old encryption code.Furthermore, if we assume that the onboard computers are in the exaflop range (and I should remind you that Data is only in the teraflop range) they couldn't break the system in a reasonable amount of time with a basic brute force attack. You also assume that the crew has trained cryptologists capable of breaking codes, which I don't see on your average Klingon ship.
If the Klingons are smart, their cryptologists are probably concentrated in a location so that they might pool their efforts to break the codes of their neighbors, like the Federation or Romulans. I can't see them spreading them apart in such a fashion, especially without real-time communications.
Interesting.
I know, I wrote that bec I feel as you do, that bringing up Enigma is a poor analogy. It's handy how mathematicians and CSticians can somehow figure out thinking times, ennit?phongn wrote:
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Originally posted by oberon:
Did Enigma require looking for primes?
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No. Breaking Engima involved capturing code-books and miscellaneous other ways detailed here: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~wdj/enigma_machine.htm
No they won't, they be busy getting their asses kicked.Yogi wrote: Instantly? I'm very sure it will take some time. Fortunatly, the Klingons have plenty of that...
Getting their asses kicked?
... and plenty of things to do in the meantime...
I just wanted to point out another great thing about modern humans--our warships will all have crypto people on board... The contrast exists, unless you would change your mind about the Klingons. I think it's just as likely that they would have cryptologists and crypto techs aboard any of their ships--after all, it's just a job. I find it credible that a ship that takes such brainpower-all ships do, like modern ships are not just a bunch of drooling swab jockeys and gun nuts floating around out there-a ship like that, especially when going into unknown territory, especially going to war, could easily have a codebreaking staff.phongn wrote: What I did note was that there were unlikely to be trained cryptologists onboard.
What a world, what a world! Who would have thought that a little girl could destroy my wickedness?
Uh, if you're calling me a CS guy, I'm not. I'm a bio majoroberon wrote:I know, I wrote that bec I feel as you do, that bringing up Enigma is a poor analogy. It's handy how mathematicians and CSticians can somehow figure out thinking times, ennit?No. Breaking Engima involved capturing code-books and miscellaneous other ways detailed here: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~wdj/enigma_machine.htm
Conceded.I just wanted to point out another great thing about modern humans--our warships will all have crypto people on board... The contrast exists, unless you would change your mind about the Klingons. I think it's just as likely that they would have cryptologists and crypto techs aboard any of their ships--after all, it's just a job. I find it credible that a ship that takes such brainpower-all ships do, like modern ships are not just a bunch of drooling swab jockeys and gun nuts floating around out there-a ship like that, especially when going into unknown territory, especially going to war, could easily have a codebreaking staff.