Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

[Jub]

But why should she do so instead of producing her own content espousing her own views?

Trick question, she shouldn't. She should have done exactly what she has done and anyone who was willing to have a civil discussion could have gone to her.

Except it turns out that we can't have a civil discussion because of mewling pissbabies who resent critique of videogames as if it's a personal attack and so respond with actual personal attacks in the form of ad hominem, threats, and harrassment.

Now, some people like to say that there are "extremists on both sides", but really, if the extremists on one side are saying "maybe videogames could do women better" and the ones on the other side are saying "I will rape you to death and murder you and here is your address" then I am not sure you can draw equivalence.

I agree that she shouldn't have to partner with anybody, but the reality is if she can get a few 'bros' on her side she'll have a better chance of getting people on her side.

[Vendetta]

But what good do those "bros" do?

I mean maybe they could send death threats to the people who make Call of Duty until it gets better female representation....

Maybe the point isn't to "get people on her side" but to point out things that the people who make games may not even be aware of because of their cultural assumptions. Most of the things she complains about in narrative presentation, for instance, are born out of lazy and repetitive storytelling, and even without the feminist perspective the response to, for instance the damsel in distress should be "holy shit you are all so unimaginative can you try and do something different occasionally?"

[Jub]

But what good do those "bros" do?

I mean maybe they could send death threats to the people who make Call of Duty until it gets better female representation....

Maybe the point isn't to "get people on her side" but to point out things that the people who make games may not even be aware of because of their cultural assumptions. Most of the things she complains about in narrative presentation, for instance, are born out of lazy and repetitive storytelling, and even without the feminist perspective the response to, for instance the damsel in distress should be "holy shit you are all so unimaginative can you try and do something different occasionally?"

I agree, this is why networking is good. If enough voices cry out for change people might listen, a lone voice can be easily dismissed.

[Simon_Jester]

The problem is, one cannot network effectively if one cannot speak. One cannot convince a thousand people to support oneself if one cannot meaningfully reach a thousand people without being attacked and threatened. Realistically, to get a thousand supporters you must reach ten thousand, or a hundred thousand people... which requires freedom of speech.

The core complaint here is that Sarkeesian pops up trying to make a feminist critique of video game publishing standards, and immediately the antifeminists come charging out of the woods to threaten her and pour torrents of abuse on her even before she's actually bothered to open her mouth.

So in essence, she has no freedom to speak without being harassed. Granted that the harassment isn't coming from the government, but it still means the same thing when the chips are down- she is not truly free to speak.

And this lack of freedom has been a serious issue for feminist writers, thinkers, and protestors ever since the movement began to exist.

So when it suddenly happens yet again, it comes with a premade history of this happening to women who want to send a message of the form "X is degrading to women." They are met with massive, disproportionate howling from males who just CANNOT STAND the idea of women complaining about being treated degradingly or condescendingly. Many of these males have no stake in whatever is at issue... except that it's a woman intruding on 'their' intellectual or physical territory. Which is apparently enough.

And as Vendetta has pointed out, there really is no logical way to counter this except to try and get the message out regardless of the harassment, while calling out the harassers on how stupid and disproportionate their bullshit is. And trying to use the harassment as an object lesson to the community at large.

This is sort of like how TV footage of Southern sheriffs going after civil rights protestors with firehoses and attack dogs helped convince normal people in the rest of the country that something was deeply wrong. That there was unjust persecution going on. And that if attack dogs and firehoses on nonviolent demonstrators were part of the existing segregationist order, then they, the majority of white Americans, wanted no part of it.

So here you see a woman whose basic argument is "women are treated disrespectfully in video games," and on the "other side" the dominant narrative is "IMMA RAPE AND KILL YOU I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE BITCH." This should tip you off that something is fundamentally wrong, and that the really serious dysfunctions are not located in the feminist camp. And once that is made obvious, criticizing the feminists for poor handling of the psychos that threaten to kill them is very much missing the point.

[Jub]

The problem is, one cannot network effectively if one cannot speak. One cannot convince a thousand people to support oneself if one cannot meaningfully reach a thousand people without being attacked and threatened. Realistically, to get a thousand supporters you must reach ten thousand, or a hundred thousand people... which requires freedom of speech.

The core complaint here is that Sarkeesian pops up trying to make a feminist critique of video game publishing standards, and immediately the antifeminists come charging out of the woods to threaten her and pour torrents of abuse on her even before she's actually bothered to open her mouth.

So in essence, she has no freedom to speak without being harassed. Granted that the harassment isn't coming from the government, but it still means the same thing when the chips are down- she is not truly free to speak.

And this lack of freedom has been a serious issue for feminist writers, thinkers, and protestors ever since the movement began to exist.

So when it suddenly happens yet again, it comes with a premade history of this happening to women who want to send a message of the form "X is degrading to women." They are met with massive, disproportionate howling from males who just CANNOT STAND the idea of women complaining about being treated degradingly or condescendingly. Many of these males have no stake in whatever is at issue... except that it's a woman intruding on 'their' intellectual or physical territory. Which is apparently enough.

And as Vendetta has pointed out, there really is no logical way to counter this except to try and get the message out regardless of the harassment, while calling out the harassers on how stupid and disproportionate their bullshit is. And trying to use the harassment as an object lesson to the community at large.

This is sort of like how TV footage of Southern sheriffs going after civil rights protestors with firehoses and attack dogs helped convince normal people in the rest of the country that something was deeply wrong. That there was unjust persecution going on. And that if attack dogs and firehoses on nonviolent demonstrators were part of the existing segregationist order, then they, the majority of white Americans, wanted no part of it.

So here you see a woman whose basic argument is "women are treated disrespectfully in video games," and on the "other side" the dominant narrative is "IMMA RAPE AND KILL YOU I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE BITCH." This should tip you off that something is fundamentally wrong, and that the really serious dysfunctions are not located in the feminist camp. And once that is made obvious, criticizing the feminists for poor handling of the psychos that threaten to kill them is very much missing the point.

True. Doing some thinking on it, I was approaching this from the angle of them wanting the controversy to die down and not so much from they "damn the noise we're going to get this message heard anyway" angle. When you look at that view them not stopping in the face of increasing adversity becomes a feature instead of a bug.

[DaveJB]

Hell, even Angry Joe's still getting flame messages for a video he posted at the turn of the year, part of which (it was a top 10 list) called out those people making death threats against Sarkeesian, and said that it made gamers as a whole look bad. He also said that he found some of her arguments specious and that she was at fault for using videos from YouTube channels without proper attribution. Didn't stop gamers from flaming the hell out of him for "supporting" her, and even throwing in a few racist diatribes aimed at Joe for good measure.

Honestly, it seems like a not-insignificant percentage of gamers are literally incapable of discussing this subject rationally.

[Terralthra]

From here, a #GamerGate tweeter says that GG doesn't tolerate harassment, and it's not ok. This GG tweeter is the same guy who made the flash Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian game when she launched her Kickstarter before she actually made any videos.

[The Romulan Republic]

So he's an asshole who won't even be honest about the fact that he's an asshole?

[Broomstick]

Maybe the point isn't to "get people on her side" but to point out things that the people who make games may not even be aware of because of their cultural assumptions.

I wish to contrast the gamergate bullshit with something that happened in WoW which, despite being created and run by men, and very male centric in many ways, actually has a grasp that a significant slice of the people who fork over every month for their game are women.

(Somewhat paraphrased for brevity) At the end of the starting area for the Pandas, there were two versions of the end sequence depending on whether your character was male or female. For the men, it was essentially yay, welcome aboard, you've proved you're a hero, you're ready for battle. For the women it was a comment on her beauty and form and jack about her accomplishments. It's pretty obvious this was written by men, and they certainly weren't intending offense, but a chunk of the player base said hey, wait a minute guys, this is sexist as hell. Maybe you want to rethink this before it leaves beta-testing?

Well, it was changed, basically to saying the women were accomplished, poised, and ready for battle. Still flattering, but no longer sexist.

That is the way this is supposed to work.

With some other conflicts, though, it's very clear that the sexist pigs have no desire to accommodate the viewpoint of women (or other group) and will viciously attack the other party. Saying "win over the bros" in that case is a little like saying that black people in the US should have stopped complaining about mistreatment (because that's negative) and tried to win over the racists and bigots by being quiet and nice.

Wasn't going to happen.

And the misogynist assholes who think it is somehow appropriate under ANY circumstance to threaten to rape a woman for speaking her mind while publishing her address are not interested in being won over. They're trying to dig in and maintain their current position by any means necessary. There is still an element out there that want their games to be a "No Girls Allowed" clubhouse.

[Elfdart]

Wow. Just Wow. No its doesn't justify large scale harassment by internet hordes but on the other hand, I think your girlfriend cheating on you and literally whoring herself out for reviews is something you can reasonably be upset about.

assuming it's correct obviously, for all we know it's just something the blogger made up cause he was upset with the woman in question for other reasons.

Has anyone ever produced one these reviews Zoe Quinn supposedly "bought" with a roll in the hay? I ask, not only because my bullshit detector is going off, but because if she screwed several guys to get reviews that were never written, or were so obscure nobody noticed them, then if anyone has a halfway legitimate complaint about ethics on review sites, it's her because she didn't get what she paid for.

Well yes, assuming that.

In any case Elfdart's post that it seemed entirely reasonable for someone to cheat on 'a dickless loser' for 'a real man' just seems completely wrong to me.

Call me old fashioned, but did he put a ring on her finger? No? Then he has no reason to whine and cry about it. She wasn't his wife or fiancee. Amazing how countless millions of men can have a girlfriend/fuck buddy leave them for another man without trying to incite a mob of baying fucktards into attacking said ex, isn't it? It's like high school boys writing a girl's name and number on the walls of the restroom with "for a great fuck call Jennie at 867-5309". Anyone who does that kind of thing is a dickless loser and deserves scorn and ridicule, not sympathy. Fuck 'em.

[Dominus Atheos]

Wow. Just Wow. No its doesn't justify large scale harassment by internet hordes but on the other hand, I think your girlfriend cheating on you and literally whoring herself out for reviews is something you can reasonably be upset about.

assuming it's correct obviously, for all we know it's just something the blogger made up cause he was upset with the woman in question for other reasons.

Has anyone ever produced one these reviews Zoe Quinn supposedly "bought" with a roll in the hay? I ask, not only because my bullshit detector is going off, but because if she screwed several guys to get reviews that were never written, or were so obscure nobody noticed them, then if anyone has a halfway legitimate complaint about ethics on review sites, it's her because she didn't get what she paid for.

No, it's a bald-faced lie.

The allegations have been extreme. Nathan has been accused of in some way trading positive coverage of a developer for the opportunity to sleep with her, of failing to disclose that he was in a romantic relationship with a developer he had written about, and that he'd given said developer's game a favorable review. All of those are troubling claims that we take seriously. All would be violations of the standards we maintain. Having spoken to Nathan several times, having looked closely at the numerous messages sent our way by concerned readers and, having compared published timelines, our leadership team finds no compelling evidence that any of that is true.

On March 31, Nathan published the only Kotaku article he's written involving Zoe Quinn. It was about Game Jam, a failed reality show that Zoe and other developers were upset about being on. At the time, Nathan and Zoe were professional acquaintances. He quoted blog posts written by Zoe and others involved in the show. Shortly after that, in early April, Nathan and Zoe began a romantic relationship. He has not written about her since. Nathan never reviewed Zoe Quinn's game Depression Quest, let alone gave it a favorable review.

http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-be ... 1624707346

[salm]

Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. It has been used throughout history by political organizations of both the left and the right, by nationalist and ethnic groups, and by revolutionaries. Although usually thought of as a means of destabilizing or overthrowing existing political institutions, terror also has been employed by governments against their own people to suppress dissent;

A more useful part of the definition for you to be arguing here is the bit about destabilizing or overthrowing political institutions.

Why is that more useful?
I actually thought about that as well but while "female equality" istn´t a political institution the definition says that terror is also used to describe violence against other things (government against own people). If you attack poltical institutions you ususally don´t really care about the buildings or the people within. You care about overthrowing an ideological construct, usually the current form of government. Female equality is an ideological construct as well, so I think, while they´re not completely the same they´re at least quite similar.
Requiring the violence to be "systematic" seems to be a much more important aspect to me.

[TheFeniX]

Maybe the point isn't to "get people on her side" but to point out things that the people who make games may not even be aware of because of their cultural assumptions. Most of the things she complains about in narrative presentation, for instance, are born out of lazy and repetitive storytelling, and even without the feminist perspective the response to, for instance the damsel in distress should be "holy shit you are all so unimaginative can you try and do something different occasionally?"

Is that really as prevalent in the industry anymore? I don't see it coming up a whole lot. It seems much more that women are just ignored completely. Then again, Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and even HotS loved it, so I may need to broaden my gaming horizons again, which is unlikely to happen. That said, it's still an extremely popular stunt in movies because it sells. From what I know, equally well among men and women. Look at Twilight. Actually, don't.

Considering where the market is at: development costs ballooning for no real reason, requiring million of pre-orders just to break even. The current playerbase throwing their money at whatever is marketed the most. This is not the kind of system to tell compelling stories. We're going to be slamming stereotypes and simple themes in the video game market for quite some time. Fortunately for white dudes, those stereotypes portray them in a positive (if not flat) light. For women and minorities? Not so much.

[Darmalus]

Considering where the market is at: development costs ballooning for no real reason, requiring million of pre-orders just to break even. The current playerbase throwing their money at whatever is marketed the most. This is not the kind of system to tell compelling stories. We're going to be slamming stereotypes and simple themes in the video game market for quite some time. Fortunately for white dudes, those stereotypes portray them in a positive (if not flat) light. For women and minorities? Not so much.

I'm trying, but I can't think of any mainstream games where the sex of the main character is even relevant and couldn't be flipped with no changes greater than some pronouns in the voice acting. They are either in situations where it's not relevant or it's a generic motherhood/fatherhood theme that boils down "concern for kids/relatives" that can be swapped easily enough since no one is giving birth as far as I know.

In the current environment you could get perfectly balanced representation by doing all the design work short of character faces and voicework (most uniforms and "male" clothing is gender neutral these days) then roll some dice to assign race and gender randomly. The only explanation for this is laziness and habit.

Edit: To be fair, this applies to most sci-fi/fantasy fiction I've read, watched and played, the sex of the main character almost never truly matters outside the romantic subplot.

[TheFeniX]

I'm trying, but I can't think of any mainstream games where the sex of the main character is even relevant and couldn't be flipped with no changes greater than some pronouns in the voice acting. They are either in situations where it's not relevant or it's a generic motherhood/fatherhood theme that boils down "concern for kids/relatives" that can be swapped easily enough since no one is giving birth as far as I know.

Isn't that a part of the problem though? I don't mind silent protagonists or those that are so devoid of established backstory their race/sex/species doesn't matter. But it's hard to telling a compelling story for that character, which seems to be a complaint at this point in time.

When dealing with established characters, especially with the current emphasis on action and/or shooter games: males (mostly white) are going to win out in that scenario easily. That demographic is still the lion's share of people who buy those games. Women, as a gender, have not embraced that genre like men have. So there's no point in this market for publishers to risk alienating their current playerbase for that. Now, that definitely could be a side-effect of the marginalization of women in video games, but it's still there.

But not just that: you can dump a stereotypical tough-dude in pretty much any scenario and the player doesn't have to ask questions. No explanation is needed why the baddest motherfucker on earth is a guy. The majority of people like their stereotypes and as long as they keep buying them up, nothing is going to change.

And really, we're talking about shoring up the writing when we can't get on-par graphics for most games and also have to deal with "they'll patch it, quit being entitled" when AAA publishers release shovelware.

Movies have been dealing with this for years, but I want to rant for a bit. I quit going to movies after my last experience: X-Men 3. The movie was bad enough, but the reel cut out 3 fucking times during the showing. The last cut was for 18 minutes. No one came in to explain the problem, the manager damn near laughed in my face when I asked for a refund. The experience itself was horrible. Now imagine that was 50% of all movies you watched in theaters. You wouldn't be asking for better storytelling (which is still a valid complaint), you'd be asking for a functioning entertainment experience. Any functioning experience.

Videogames are in a shit spot right now. The latent sexism and racism (also extremely prevalent in general entertainment) is really just another black mark against the whole thing. It definitely needs to be addressed, but when even the basics are a craps shoot: good fucking luck.

[Darmalus]

I'm trying, but I can't think of any mainstream games where the sex of the main character is even relevant and couldn't be flipped with no changes greater than some pronouns in the voice acting. They are either in situations where it's not relevant or it's a generic motherhood/fatherhood theme that boils down "concern for kids/relatives" that can be swapped easily enough since no one is giving birth as far as I know.

Isn't that a part of the problem though? I don't mind silent protagonists or those that are so devoid of established backstory their race/sex/species doesn't matter. But it's hard to telling a compelling story for that character, which seems to be a complaint at this point in time.

I'm not just talking about games right now. Maybe it's just me, but you could gender-swap the cast of Lord of the Rings randomly and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. Unless the setting of the story itself is massively racist or sexist (such as historical or realistic modern settings) the backstory of the protagonist is flexible in that regard unless pregnancy or childbirth gets involved. Until someone gets pregnant individual personalities overwhelm any gender differences, especially in settings as extreme as the ones in video games (at least the ones I'm interested in).

Edit: Other than accusations of sexism/racism which I avoid without a lot of evidence, my only explanation for the army of white male protagonists is laziness. It's what they did last time, they already know how to do it, it will be easiest just to do it again.

[Vendetta]

And really, we're talking about shoring up the writing when we can't get on-par graphics for most games and also have to deal with "they'll patch it, quit being entitled" when AAA publishers release shovelware.

Movies have been dealing with this for years, but I want to rant for a bit. I quit going to movies after my last experience: X-Men 3. The movie was bad enough, but the reel cut out 3 fucking times during the showing. The last cut was for 18 minutes. No one came in to explain the problem, the manager damn near laughed in my face when I asked for a refund. The experience itself was horrible. Now imagine that was 50% of all movies you watched in theaters. You wouldn't be asking for better storytelling (which is still a valid complaint), you'd be asking for a functioning entertainment experience. Any functioning experience.

Videogames are in a shit spot right now. The latent sexism and racism (also extremely prevalent in general entertainment) is really just another black mark against the whole thing. It definitely needs to be addressed, but when even the basics are a craps shoot: good fucking luck.

I think you're massively overstating the parlousness of the state of general videogame releases. Most can be relied upon to work consistently for the vast majority of their content.

A lot of games are uninspired, but the reason they're uninspired is generally similar to the reasons that videogames portray women badly, they're unimaginative, they haven't considered what else they could have done so they retread the same tired ground in mechanics and in narrative.

[TheFeniX]

I think you're massively overstating the parlousness of the state of general videogame releases. Most can be relied upon to work consistently for the vast majority of their content.

That's fair. I'm being a dick here. I was leading into another jab at EA (cuz why not?) and my rant got the better of me.

A lot of games are uninspired, but the reason they're uninspired is generally similar to the reasons that videogames portray women badly, they're unimaginative, they haven't considered what else they could have done so they retread the same tired ground in mechanics and in narrative.

Well yea, but it works. It sells games. CoD has been hashing it out for a decade and made billions. It's only recently started to get tired, so why change it? They have a winning formula and even when guys like me, who've been blowing money on the industry since the 80s are fed up: who gives a shit? There's a load of rubes willing to demand much less and pay more.

It doesn't help that the term "gamer" is being used as some ubiquitous term to apply to anyone who uses an electronic device to click things. Even Zoe Quinn believes you can lump Candy Crush players in with CoD players under the term gamer: about 2 minutes in. The data they are posting is flawed anyways because whereas more women are gaming, more people in general are playing video games, most notably mobile games. My mom isn't a gamer, she plays word warp on her fucking iPad.

In the vein of action games and FPS: men are still the dominant purchasers. And since those types of games get the most publicity, it's understandable women feel left out, but also understandable that businesses want to keep pandering to their current audience and make money doing so. Sure, there's likely a market there for women, but I wouldn't be surprised if publishers are still working off the idea that women only play lite games like The Sims.

I have an honest question because I don't know: do women avoid "hardcore" (for lack of a better term) games as a gender because it's dominated by men? Or do they avoid it because it's not something they are generally interested in? In my experience, you had different types of gamers. Now it seems that every genre must pander to all groups equally, which seems dumb because I can't think of any other entertainment medium that does the same.

[Broomstick]

I have an honest question because I don't know: do women avoid "hardcore" (for lack of a better term) games as a gender because it's dominated by men? Or do they avoid it because it's not something they are generally interested in?

Speaking as a woman who has been into RPG's since the mid-1970's, some from column A, some from column B.

Fewer women are interested in the FPS, RPG's, and "battle games" just as fewer women are interested in the military or police work as a career. You can argue if that's nature or nurture, but let's not in this post, let's just accept that that is the way things currently are. It's like arguing why Candy Crush or Bejeweled is mostly female players - there are some men playing those games but not so many. Different games are going to appeal to different demographics, this isn't really news.

However, there is still a sizable number of women are still very much interested in "boy" or "hardcore" games, just as there are women who are soldiers or cops. Some games do a decent job of lowering barriers to women without alienating their male playerbase. Some do not.

The situation is a LOT better than 40 years ago, when I would go to gaming meetings (because we didn't have anything on line back then, it was all face-to-face) and literally be turned away from the door, told "no girlfriends" or more bluntly "we don't play with bitches and cunts" (though that only happened once). Even when we got into the forum it was all too common to be shouted down, ignored, literally shoved out of the way, told our role was to get snacks and drinks for the "men" rather be allowed to actually play and, on one occasion, I was subjected to being felt up by a drunken asshole who didn't comprehend why a woman who had never seen him before would NOT appreciate having his hands roam all over her or forcing her to endure his disgusting, sloppy, booze-stinking kisses. He was just being FRIENDLY! He was being NICE! Goddammit NO - he was trying to get my bra off and squeeze my tits.

So yeah, things are a LOT better. That doesn't mean we've reached an acceptable plateau in all situations.

[Jub]

The situation is a LOT better than 40 years ago, when I would go to gaming meetings (because we didn't have anything on line back then, it was all face-to-face) and literally be turned away from the door, told "no girlfriends" or more bluntly "we don't play with bitches and cunts" (though that only happened once). Even when we got into the forum it was all too common to be shouted down, ignored, literally shoved out of the way, told our role was to get snacks and drinks for the "men" rather be allowed to actually play and, on one occasion, I was subjected to being felt up by a drunken asshole who didn't comprehend why a woman who had never seen him before would NOT appreciate having his hands roam all over her or forcing her to endure his disgusting, sloppy, booze-stinking kisses. He was just being FRIENDLY! He was being NICE! Goddammit NO - he was trying to get my bra off and squeeze my tits.

This is the kind of thing that I often fail to think of when I hear about these kinds of issues. Not only because it doesn't happen to me, but because I'm not the type to do that sort of shit. Thanks for posting in this topic as it's been eyeopening.

[Vendetta]

In the vein of action games and FPS: men are still the dominant purchasers. And since those types of games get the most publicity, it's understandable women feel left out, but also understandable that businesses want to keep pandering to their current audience and make money doing so. Sure, there's likely a market there for women, but I wouldn't be surprised if publishers are still working off the idea that women only play lite games like The Sims.

The thing is, you could actually fix most of the problems with female representation in those games and the target audience being pandered to probably wouldn't notice.

I mean every call of duty character could have selectable genders for the campaign, they're mute faceless drones who get their surname shouted at them ("Ramirez, Do the thing!" isn't gender specific), nothing changes.

But it's not even really the broshooter that is the problem, sure they've forgotten that 50% of the population even exists, but at least they aren't using the same boring damsels in distress or characterless eye candy, it's the general faceless genreless mass that gets blobbed together vaguely under "action adventure" that tends to do that. Your GTAs and Assassin's Creeds and such.

Reason being that they're much more narratively driven than the broshooter FPS and so there are all sorts of opportunities for them to fuck up and do some lazy ass bullshit.

And if they didn't do the lazy ass bullshit they could actually end up a more satisfying experience for their core audience as well because all of a sudden there would be much more variety in narrative and objective.

[Block]

Um Assassin's Creed has basically none of what you're talking about. There's like one mission to rescue a female in the series and she's a pregnant pirate, who historically got pregnant to get out of hanging. It has also had 1 Arab, 2 "white" (although tell an Italian he's the same as an Englishman and see what happens), a Native American, and a freed Black slave as protagonists. You can complain that women aren't really involved, but then if they were people would complain that it promotes violence against women.

[Jub]

Um Assassin's Creed has basically none of what you're talking about. There's like one mission to rescue a female in the series and she's a pregnant pirate, who historically got pregnant to get out of hanging. It has also had 1 Arab, 2 "white" (although tell an Italian he's the same as an Englishman and see what happens), a Native American, and a freed Black slave as protagonists. You can complain that women aren't really involved, but then if they were people would complain that it promotes violence against women.

Isn't there also a handheld game where you play as a woman in that series?

[Block]

Yes, I've never played that one, not having the Vita, but I believe her name is Avaline and it's set in New Orleans I think.

[TheFeniX]

The situation is a LOT better than 40 years ago, when I would go to gaming meetings (because we didn't have anything on line back then, it was all face-to-face) and literally be turned away from the door, told "no girlfriends" or more bluntly "we don't play with bitches and cunts" (though that only happened once). Even when we got into the forum it was all too common to be shouted down, ignored, literally shoved out of the way, told our role was to get snacks and drinks for the "men" rather be allowed to actually play and, on one occasion, I was subjected to being felt up by a drunken asshole who didn't comprehend why a woman who had never seen him before would NOT appreciate having his hands roam all over her or forcing her to endure his disgusting, sloppy, booze-stinking kisses. He was just being FRIENDLY! He was being NICE! Goddammit NO - he was trying to get my bra off and squeeze my tits.

That sucks. At my old MtG card haunt, we had more than a few girls/women show up to play. There was only one guy who ever gave them shit, but he was a fucking degenerate all-around. He almost got ran off for grabbing a girls ass when "she was totally in to me, I swear." He quit showing up after he scammed some kid out of a few rares and said kid's dad showed up and kicked the shit out of him. Hilariously, not one person would back his story up to the police because he was such a shit-stain. This was mid 90s though.

So yeah, things are a LOT better. That doesn't mean we've reached an acceptable plateau in all situations.

I would say in a lot of situations as long as stereotypes continue to be the focus of most narratives because it's so fucking easy. But not just that, it sells so damned well.

The thing is, you could actually fix most of the problems with female representation in those games and the target audience being pandered to probably wouldn't notice.

They did this with Rainbow 6 Vegas and it made the game that much better because the voice-actor was aces. The only problem is that idiots bring up that women aren't front-line combatants in the military, so super badass women would require actual exposition that isn't "We're Russians, so obviously stupid and evil" and Activision ain't got time for that shit. Considering their playerbase, at least on consoles, I can't blame them for doing anything and everything to avoid even the possibility of getting those guys riled up.

But it's not even really the broshooter that is the problem, sure they've forgotten that 50% of the population even exists, but at least they aren't using the same boring damsels in distress or characterless eye candy, it's the general faceless genreless mass that gets blobbed together vaguely under "action adventure" that tends to do that. Your GTAs and Assassin's Creeds and such.

GTA is too busy trying to win writing awards with the most trite shit to bother with anything of that nature. It's a sad day when, even as bastshit crazy and it has become, Saint's Row writing ends up being more engaging. Oh yea, and fully-voiced female protagonists. On a side-note, I can't believe I'm living in an age where GTA is taken seriously at all. This isn't a dig at you, but that series has always been about controversy and it's funny to see so many people look to Rockstar from a narrative perspective. The GTA of the 2010's seems to be this new Postal game "Hatred."

And if they didn't do the lazy ass bullshit they could actually end up a more satisfying experience for their core audience as well because all of a sudden there would be much more variety in narrative and objective.

Why bother when boring shit sells just as well, if not better? They've cultivated an audience that literally does not care about any of that shit. Even the Elder Scrolls series has cut out tons of narrative, AI, and functionality and it's numbers dwarf any other game in the series by a landslide. This current generation does not want complex. Whereas I don't mind it (because I like options in general) any kind of strong female lead is going to be a guy with tits. The industry can do better, but why try when you have an established base that will already buy what you're selling and risk losing that by royally fucking up even worse than if you had just stuck with the mold?

Nintendo tried this with their least popular of the Holy Trinity (Metroid) and ended up missing the mark so much with Other M, they would have just had a boring Metroid game had they cut all the drama bullshit and released a Metroid corridor shooter. Instead they ended up with insulting, cringe-worthy, and boring.