How many (ex)servicemen

[Rob Wilson]

Rob Wilson wrote:


Fool, My Skull is like a shield of steel.

That would explain alot.

Hey they don't just give these steel plates away, if I hadn't tried to headbutt that bomb into submission i'd never have known the joy of a bulletproof skull.

[Hyperion]

Rob Wilson wrote:


Fool, My Skull is like a shield of steel.

That would explain alot.

Hey they don't just give these steel plates away, if I hadn't tried to headbutt that bomb into submission i'd never have known the joy of a bulletproof skull.

*kicks back and starts laughing his ass off...* dang this sounds soo familiar...

[Edi]

I served nine and a half months in the Finnish Army (conscription here), Military Police Company. It was named that, because it's one of the few units dedicated to training MPs as well as urban combat specialists instead of regular grunts, and it's also the Presidential Honor Gurad. Learned a lot, though it could have been more fun.

Main problem was that since we have conscription, there's loads of people who don't like it at all (because they actually have to have discipline for a change), and some of them really gave a hard time to some people. I was one of the victims.

Edi

[Rob Wilson]

Its no different than two brothers kicking the shit out of each other to express their love. Ahhh, how cute.

People, can you feel the love? *kicks harder* can you feel it now?

[Hyperion]

I served nine and a half months in the Finnish Army (conscription here), Military Police Company. It was named that, because it's one of the few units dedicated to training MPs as well as urban combat specialists instead of regular grunts, and it's also the Presidential Honor Gurad. Learned a lot, though it could have been more fun.

Main problem was that since we have conscription, there's loads of people who don't like it at all (because they actually have to have discipline for a change), and some of them really gave a hard time to some people. I was one of the victims.

Edi

icky, though i myself think there should be manditory service to the state (either military or other government service) before you can vote.

[Rob Wilson]

I served nine and a half months in the Finnish Army (conscription here), Military Police Company. It was named that, because it's one of the few units dedicated to training MPs as well as urban combat specialists instead of regular grunts, and it's also the Presidential Honor Gurad. Learned a lot, though it could have been more fun.

Edi

Guys, we have an MP among us. Who brought the Blowtorch and Boltcutters?

[Hyperion]

Its no different than two brothers kicking the shit out of each other to express their love. Ahhh, how cute.

People, can you feel the love? *kicks harder* can you feel it now?

anyone (like myself) who's been caught in the middle of a surface ship sailor vs. submariner conflict knows this can hurt a might bit... *remembers not to fondly being hit in the head by flying objects...*

[Knife]

I served nine and a half months in the Finnish Army (conscription here), Military Police Company. It was named that, because it's one of the few units dedicated to training MPs as well as urban combat specialists instead of regular grunts, and it's also the Presidential Honor Gurad. Learned a lot, though it could have been more fun.

Main problem was that since we have conscription, there's loads of people who don't like it at all (because they actually have to have discipline for a change), and some of them really gave a hard time to some people. I was one of the victims.

Edi

Old saying, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." I don't say that to be an ass, just that you survived it and can continue on in life as you see fit. I'm sorry for your experiences.

[Rob Wilson]

I served nine and a half months in the Finnish Army (conscription here), Military Police Company. It was named that, because it's one of the few units dedicated to training MPs as well as urban combat specialists instead of regular grunts, and it's also the Presidential Honor Gurad. Learned a lot, though it could have been more fun.

Main problem was that since we have conscription, there's loads of people who don't like it at all (because they actually have to have discipline for a change), and some of them really gave a hard time to some people. I was one of the victims.

Edi

As an MP you might want to give your 2 pence worth in the 'Military only' thread, the part where we're discussing moving people and controlling civvies/workers in a crisis.

Any points you want to make about ST treatment of your specialities are also welcome.

[Knife]

Its no different than two brothers kicking the shit out of each other to express their love. Ahhh, how cute.

People, can you feel the love? *kicks harder* can you feel it now?

Silly Brit, your steal plate is in your head not your boot.

*starts kicking Rob with my STEAL TOED boot*

"Ah hell, " *grabs golf club*


Thwack, Thwack, Thump. "ooops, sorry about that hit to the head thing"

[Hyperion]

I served nine and a half months in the Finnish Army (conscription here), Military Police Company. It was named that, because it's one of the few units dedicated to training MPs as well as urban combat specialists instead of regular grunts, and it's also the Presidential Honor Gurad. Learned a lot, though it could have been more fun.

Main problem was that since we have conscription, there's loads of people who don't like it at all (because they actually have to have discipline for a change), and some of them really gave a hard time to some people. I was one of the victims.

Edi

Guys, we have an MP among us. Who brought the Blowtorch and Boltcutters?

hehe, the "khaki-'killing'" stuff now... heh. (some of these were the best stories i ever heard.)

[Rob Wilson]

Its no different than two brothers kicking the shit out of each other to express their love. Ahhh, how cute.

People, can you feel the love? *kicks harder* can you feel it now?

Silly Brit, your steal plate is in your head not your boot.

*starts kicking Rob with my STEAL TOED boot*

"Ah hell, " *grabs golf club*


Thwack, Thwack, Thump. "ooops, sorry about that hit to the head thing"

Why are you ruining your golf clubs. *Proceeds to headbutt knife into the ground like a Golf Tee, picks up club* "Fore!" TWAAACK

[Knife]

*easily sidesteps Rob's clumsy attempt to headbutt me. Watches in joy as the momentum of his steal coconut topples him over*


"I am sorry, but you seemed to have fallen over, here let me help."

*starts kicking him in the ribs with my steal toed boots again*

[Rob Wilson]

Main problem was that since we have conscription, there's loads of people who don't like it at all (because they actually have to have discipline for a change), and some of them really gave a hard time to some people. I was one of the victims.

Edi

Ouch, I can only echo Knifes sentiment. Your through it now and you survived. Let it make you a stronger person and make sure you're never a victim again.

[Rob Wilson]

*easily sidesteps Rob's clumsy attempt to headbutt me. Watches in joy as the momentum of his steal coconut topples him over*


"I am sorry, but you seemed to have fallen over, here let me help."

*starts kicking him in the ribs with my steal toed boots again*

Pah, My ribs are like a shield of glass! Wait, that doesn't help.

Fuck this, when in doubt - Pick helve!

*shatters Knifes Kneecaps and goes to work on his arms*

[Knife]

*easily sidesteps Rob's clumsy attempt to headbutt me. Watches in joy as the momentum of his steal coconut topples him over*


"I am sorry, but you seemed to have fallen over, here let me help."

*starts kicking him in the ribs with my steal toed boots again*

Pah, My ribs are like a shield of glass! Wait, that doesn't help.

Fuck this, when in doubt - Pick helve!

*shatters Knifes Kneecaps and goes to work on his arms*

Must overcome and adapt, Drops shattered knee on Rob's neck and as the pain washes through me, I get the added pleasure of watching the last flickers of concionness flash in Rob's eyes before he is knocked out.




"Whooo hooo, now where did that golf club go?"





Been fun, now its rack time. Night.

[Hyperion]

GEEEZE!!! remind me never to get between a marine and anyone else in one of these little "arguments"....

[Sam Or I]

I did 4 years in the USAF, about 2 of those on an Army Post. I am glad I did it, but I am also glad I got out. A great experience, and saw places and learned thinks I most likely would not have if I went to college right out of highschool.

[Tsyroc]

I don't normally care for Doonesbury but this one from just prior to the Gulf War cracks me up.




My division was very understaffed at the time so I was busting ass at the time but other than the
"shuffleboard" comment it's hitting very close to home.

[Edi]

Hyperion, conscription age is 18+, and you are allowed to vote at 18. Used to be that you could volunteer at 17, but that was changed because it violated certain treaties and the declaration of human rights and other inconvenient stuff that say words to the effect that no adult duties before adult rights too. We actually had one 17-year-old volunteer in our platoon, and he was one of the better soldiers, and a cool guy to boot.

Knife, Rob, I don't regret having been in the military, even if there was some shit involved. I survived, and like Knife said, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you stronger (tobacco and drugs excepted). Most of the people were okay, but it doesn't take more than two or three people in the same platoon to make things more difficult for whoever they choose to pick as their target.

The problem with conscription is, like I said, that many people only do their military service because it's required of them, and will try to get away with the absolute minimum they can. They're used to getting things their way, not having to do what they're told to do and challenging authority (not necessarily always a bad thing in itself) and having no responsibility. So take a couple of hundred young men, most unwilling or indifferent, from all sorts of backgrounds, and we have what is the typical pool of recruits in a given unit.

The hardest part for them is that the NCOs in the Finnish Army are all conscripts also, except for the Sergeant Majors or whatever the guys just above sergeant are called in the US and British armies. Those NCOs are responsible for much of the training (supervised by officers, of course), and they have the authority to give orders, even unpleasant ones, and the means to enforce those orders. Sometimes the NCO is younger than the recruit (or private, after boot camp period), and having to obey really gets people's goat. Typically the people who are irritated by it are the ones who were never set much limits at home.

This irritation typically manifests itself as sloppy work, slow response to orders and bad attitudes, which invariably result in the offending persons getting a chewing out and having to do it all over again, which just increases their bad attitude and fosters an "us vs. them" mentality, because the idiots never bother to look at whether their own actions were the cause of it. Fucktards...

I never had a problem with the NCOs. I went into the military knowing that I'd be taught to be a soldier and that I'd be expected to follow orders. So I did what I was told, when I was told, as well as I could, and most of the time it was good enough so that I didn't have to do it again, and I even got praised at times. This didn't go down well with some of the slackers so I became a target. Not that I wasn't somewhat at fault myself, I did some stupid things during the first few weeks that irritated some people for good reasons, but I changed that behavior and left it behind.

Of course, in a conscript army the quality of leadership becomes especially important, especially on part of the NCOs. The officers and the sergeant majors can't be everywhere at once and at all times and work regular hours instead of being confined to base like the conscripts, and if the corporals and sergeants fuck up or abuse their position, the results are bad and really set the grunts against them.

We had this sort of bad NCOs for the first three and a half months (back then, in 1996-97) our company was trained for that period, boot camp and basic MP stuff, in another city and then transferred to Helsinki, and the NCOs there were basically the worst of the previous batch. The ones who did best got to pick their assignment, either training the new recruits, or overseeing the rest of us in Helsinki, and most picked Helsinki. Has to be said that the whole command structure back in Hämeenlinna was riddled with infighting, jealousies and a who-gives-a-damn attitude as well as contempt for soft city-boys (all recruits in our company were from Helsinki, since the unit was essentially a defense one for the capital), and that was very visible. Not back then, but after the move to Helsinki. One of the officers in 3rd Platoon actually asked what the hell was wrong with us all because we acted like we were scared of the officers and jumped every time one came near, even if he just passed by.

By contrast, in Helsinki it was all different. Food was better, the officers were nice guys (with a couple of exceptions), even the company XO who was a mean bastard and would chew you out the second you did something wrong even in a minor way, but he was of the opinion that a conscript had to prove himself first. One had to earn his respect. Once you did, he was really okay. I actually got to toss him around the training gym before an exhibition of self-defense techniques for some high brass, he asked if anyone knew judo or jujutsu and wanted to have a bout. He wound up on his ass and in a chokehold both times...

The NCOs were nicer too, and not as stuck up. There was a brief period of trouble when the guys who'd been grunts with us came and took charge from the departing NCOs, but that sorted out pretty well. We had it good, 1st Platoon got four nice guys and only one asshole, and that one was not originally 1st, but 3rd Platoon. Two of them were nice guys who were also friends with lots of us, and so we did everything we were told without complaints. One was also a nice guy, but hadn't the touch for leadership, so he was always driven to distraction by some people's antics, but he also never had trouble. One was a true leader, he was always impartial and fair, nice as a person and everybody (aside from the discipline problem cases) always immediately jumped to when he gave orders. The asshole was hated by everyone. Seemed okay, but turned real nasty in just a couple of months. Nothing was ever good for him, he'd yell at people and insult them for no reason, you'd get publicly chewed out for asking clarification for ambiguous orders or requesting permission for something that required permission from an NCO to be done but had to be done anyway. Needless to say, he got the recalcitrance routine from everyone.

So, good leadership is bloody important, but if it's there, you can do quite a lot with a bunch of conscripts who've had some training.

Anyway, I have a lot of memories from those nine and a half months, and most of them are good. The bad stuff was mostly toward the end, with everybody's frustration mounting due to a shitty string of training exercises in foul weather, few leave weekends, a very surly sergeant major (the biggest asshole of the professional soldiers in the company) and a desire to just have done with the army.

Sorry if I bored anyone with this, but seeing as most of the military people here are from countries that have all volunteer professional armies, I thought you'd be interested in the comparison. A professional military is not a luxury a nation the size of Finland cannot afford. Just look at the population size and compare that to geographical size to see what I mean...

Edi

[j1j2j3]

26 months of compulsory service in the ROK army.

Standard DMZ patrol duty, sniper duty.

Of course never got to shoot any humans, but lots and lots of deers and rabbits

Waking every morning to the blaring speakers of North Korean propeganda broadcasts wasn't my idea of paradise, and I was glad it was over.

Dude, I would agree with you on that. After getting a tour of the DMZ in U.S. Army class B's and seeing what those guys (and you) go through up there was not something I would find pleasant.

Thanks, it wasn't that bad The guys who are suffering the most would be the USF guys(poor guys, not even defending their own country, and getting shit from Korean civilians) .

My condolences. Have you guys ever considered building a chain of
McDonalds or other fast food restaurants on the DMZ and giant fans
to blow the smell of food across the border to North Korea?

We did get our revenge now and then, when the North commies weren't arround we would snipe their speakers, and set fire to the grass(when the wind was blowing north, of course) and sit back and watch them trying to frantically put the fires out before their watch nests caught fire.

[Knife]

Hyperion, conscription age is 18+, and you are allowed to vote at 18. Used to be that you could volunteer at 17, but that was changed because it violated certain treaties and the declaration of human rights and other inconvenient stuff that say words to the effect that no adult duties before adult rights too. We actually had one 17-year-old volunteer in our platoon, and he was one of the better soldiers, and a cool guy to boot.

Knife, Rob, I don't regret having been in the military, even if there was some shit involved. I survived, and like Knife said, if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you stronger (tobacco and drugs excepted). Most of the people were okay, but it doesn't take more than two or three people in the same platoon to make things more difficult for whoever they choose to pick as their target.


The problem with conscription is, like I said, that many people only do their military service because it's required of them, and will try to get away with the absolute minimum they can. They're used to getting things their way, not having to do what they're told to do and challenging authority (not necessarily always a bad thing in itself) and having no responsibility. So take a couple of hundred young men, most unwilling or indifferent, from all sorts of backgrounds, and we have what is the typical pool of recruits in a given unit.

The hardest part for them is that the NCOs in the Finnish Army are all conscripts also, except for the Sergeant Majors or whatever the guys just above sergeant are called in the US and British armies. Those NCOs are responsible for much of the training (supervised by officers, of course), and they have the authority to give orders, even unpleasant ones, and the means to enforce those orders. Sometimes the NCO is younger than the recruit (or private, after boot camp period), and having to obey really gets people's goat. Typically the people who are irritated by it are the ones who were never set much limits at home.

This irritation typically manifests itself as sloppy work, slow response to orders and bad attitudes, which invariably result in the offending persons getting a chewing out and having to do it all over again, which just increases their bad attitude and fosters an "us vs. them" mentality, because the idiots never bother to look at whether their own actions were the cause of it. Fucktards...

I never had a problem with the NCOs. I went into the military knowing that I'd be taught to be a soldier and that I'd be expected to follow orders. So I did what I was told, when I was told, as well as I could, and most of the time it was good enough so that I didn't have to do it again, and I even got praised at times. This didn't go down well with some of the slackers so I became a target. Not that I wasn't somewhat at fault myself, I did some stupid things during the first few weeks that irritated some people for good reasons, but I changed that behavior and left it behind.

Of course, in a conscript army the quality of leadership becomes especially important, especially on part of the NCOs. The officers and the sergeant majors can't be everywhere at once and at all times and work regular hours instead of being confined to base like the conscripts, and if the corporals and sergeants fuck up or abuse their position, the results are bad and really set the grunts against them.

We had this sort of bad NCOs for the first three and a half months (back then, in 1996-97) our company was trained for that period, boot camp and basic MP stuff, in another city and then transferred to Helsinki, and the NCOs there were basically the worst of the previous batch. The ones who did best got to pick their assignment, either training the new recruits, or overseeing the rest of us in Helsinki, and most picked Helsinki. Has to be said that the whole command structure back in Hämeenlinna was riddled with infighting, jealousies and a who-gives-a-damn attitude as well as contempt for soft city-boys (all recruits in our company were from Helsinki, since the unit was essentially a defense one for the capital), and that was very visible. Not back then, but after the move to Helsinki. One of the officers in 3rd Platoon actually asked what the hell was wrong with us all because we acted like we were scared of the officers and jumped every time one came near, even if he just passed by.

By contrast, in Helsinki it was all different. Food was better, the officers were nice guys (with a couple of exceptions), even the company XO who was a mean bastard and would chew you out the second you did something wrong even in a minor way, but he was of the opinion that a conscript had to prove himself first. One had to earn his respect. Once you did, he was really okay. I actually got to toss him around the training gym before an exhibition of self-defense techniques for some high brass, he asked if anyone knew judo or jujutsu and wanted to have a bout. He wound up on his ass and in a chokehold both times...

The NCOs were nicer too, and not as stuck up. There was a brief period of trouble when the guys who'd been grunts with us came and took charge from the departing NCOs, but that sorted out pretty well. We had it good, 1st Platoon got four nice guys and only one asshole, and that one was not originally 1st, but 3rd Platoon. Two of them were nice guys who were also friends with lots of us, and so we did everything we were told without complaints. One was also a nice guy, but hadn't the touch for leadership, so he was always driven to distraction by some people's antics, but he also never had trouble. One was a true leader, he was always impartial and fair, nice as a person and everybody (aside from the discipline problem cases) always immediately jumped to when he gave orders. The asshole was hated by everyone. Seemed okay, but turned real nasty in just a couple of months. Nothing was ever good for him, he'd yell at people and insult them for no reason, you'd get publicly chewed out for asking clarification for ambiguous orders or requesting permission for something that required permission from an NCO to be done but had to be done anyway. Needless to say, he got the recalcitrance routine from everyone.

So, good leadership is bloody important, but if it's there, you can do quite a lot with a bunch of conscripts who've had some training.

Anyway, I have a lot of memories from those nine and a half months, and most of them are good. The bad stuff was mostly toward the end, with everybody's frustration mounting due to a shitty string of training exercises in foul weather, few leave weekends, a very surly sergeant major (the biggest asshole of the professional soldiers in the company) and a desire to just have done with the army.

Sorry if I bored anyone with this, but seeing as most of the military people here are from countries that have all volunteer professional armies, I thought you'd be interested in the comparison. A professional military is not a luxury a nation the size of Finland cannot afford. Just look at the population size and compare that to geographical size to see what I mean...

Edi

Unfortunately at nine and one half months one would be stretched to get to know all your platoon and grow comfortable with them. I did 6 but most do 4 years, during this time most people are considered newbies or "boots" for atleast one year. Durring this time they get to know people and how the platoon works and operates. After about a year, they have figured out how to fit in and work in realitive ease inside the platoon structure. There are always exceptions (either for the good or bad) but mostly that is how it worked.

[phongn]

Hyperion, conscription age is 18+, and you are allowed to vote at 18. Used to be that you could volunteer at 17, but that was changed because it violated certain treaties and the declaration of human rights and other inconvenient stuff that say words to the effect that no adult duties before adult rights too. We actually had one 17-year-old volunteer in our platoon, and he was one of the better soldiers, and a cool guy to boot.

The US manage to wrest a clause in that treaty, I think, since the Army National Guard accepts 17 year olds.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The US manage to wrest a clause in that treaty, I think, since the Army National Guard accepts 17 year olds.

All the armed services accept 17 year olds with their parents' written permission.

[Ted]

The US manage to wrest a clause in that treaty, I think, since the Army National Guard accepts 17 year olds.

All the armed services accept 17 year olds with their parents' written permission.

The Royal Navy accepts kids at 15 years, 9 months, though they enter training at 16 years old at the earliest.