MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

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Channel72
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Channel72 »

Purple wrote:Speaking as someone studding in a tech field, although admittedly in Europe, and who has contact with a lot of people working in the field I can say that at least from what I know the lack of women here is not due to discrimination but lack of interest. IT just isn't something that appeals to a lot of women for some reason. My university maybe has 10-20% of its students being female and I can tell you for sure it's not due to discrimination (or else we would not have like 50% of the teachers being female). Girls simply don't seem to apply as much for an education or job in IT.
Yes yes... that's what everyone says. Except in places like India and South Africa, over 30% of programmers are female - which is way more than we see in the West. In fact, in India, women programmers and engineers are very common.

So there's nothing inherent about the female gender that should create more "disinterest" in technical fields. Obviously, cultural forces must be at work to explain this. I agree that most Universities in the West aren't going to outright discriminate against female CS majors - in fact most Universities would love to see more of them. But there are larger cultural forces at work here that discourage that career path for women in the US.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Purple »

Channel72 wrote:Yes yes... that's what everyone says. Except in places like India and South Africa, over 30% of programmers are female - which is way more than we see in the West. In fact, in India, women programmers and engineers are very common.
That only means that for some reason more women in those places want to enter the field. As I said, I am not talking as someone who is in the industry but as someone in university doing a head count of the students applying. And women simply do not sign up in as great numbers as men.
So there's nothing inherent about the female gender that should create more "disinterest" in technical fields.
There is nothing in any gender that can explain disinterest in any field aside from professional sperm donor and wet nurse. What's your point?
Obviously, cultural forces must be at work to explain this. I agree that most Universities in the West aren't going to outright discriminate against female CS majors - in fact most Universities would love to see more of them. But there are larger cultural forces at work here that discourage that career path for women in the US.
Thing is, I can't really understand just what kind of forces these could be. They can't be a product of the workplace as these women are not even applying to education and thus have no contact with the workplace. And they can't be the product of established cultural norms because the entire branch of science did not exist 100 years ago, let alone in the times when cultural norms were actually being established.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Purple wrote:Speaking as someone studding in a tech field, although admittedly in Europe, and who has contact with a lot of people working in the field I can say that at least from what I know the lack of women here is not due to discrimination but lack of interest. IT just isn't something that appeals to a lot of women for some reason. My university maybe has 10-20% of its students being female and I can tell you for sure it's not due to discrimination (or else we would not have like 50% of the teachers being female). Girls simply don't seem to apply as much for an education or job in IT.
*sigh*

Nope. You are dead wrong.

1) Young women are discouraged from pursing technical educations starting at a young age. They are actively discouraged from studying math, computer science, and any sort constructive/creative play is discouraged.

References:

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/rese ... 1773/22833

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/edu/83/3/361/ (this one examines young girls who are about my age and who are in the work force right now)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 8990410106

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/39/1/34/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3101915008

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/26/10593.short

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... ated=false

2) Even when they do, their competency is systematically evaluated as inferior to male colleagues, even though their actual performance or qualifications are identical.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/72/3/544/

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.abstract
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Purple »

1) Which of those are not in relation to America. Since my experiences and point of discussion is in relation to Europe and not america.
2) I have yet to see a written test that can be evaluated unfairly without raising an eyebrow. And again, I am not talking employment here but education. All entrance tests as well as all of my actual exams are written.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Zeropoint »

#1 Ripley is a PLAUSIBLE feminine heroine. She fights to save a daughter figure and uses her experience with the Xenomorphs to survive. The only part that bothered me was her superhuman shoes that kept a ton of alien queen from ripping her leg off before it finally go spaced.

#2 Sarah Connor is likewise Plausible... she trained for years to become the badass she was and was still obviously NO match for either the T-101 OR the T-1000. She accomplished what she did vs the guards/cops/psychologist, but it was still necessary for the T-101s strength and John Connors pluck, (and the black scientists incredible moral conversion and self sacrifice) to win the day.
This is REALLY coming across as you saying "female heroes are only 'plausible' when they succeed in narrowly defined feminine roles or need male help."
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Purple »

Zeropoint wrote:This is REALLY coming across as you saying "female heroes are only 'plausible' when they succeed in narrowly defined feminine roles or need male help."
Actually it comes across as "female heroes are only 'plausible' when they succeed in things that are them self plausible. These characters are plausible because the things they do are plausible within the realm of things that human beings do. A female Superman flying around the world to turn time backwards and melting the alien queen terminator with her heat visionwould be no more plausible than her male counterpart.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Why does plausibility matter at all? There is nothing plausible about 99% of action/sci-fi movies. Why is it that plausibility is only an issue with respect to the gender of the protagonist?
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Purple »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Why does plausibility matter at all? There is nothing plausible about 99% of action/sci-fi movies. Why is it that plausibility is only an issue with respect to the gender of the protagonist?
Since when is plausibility not something discussed in regard to movie plots? Have you newer had a conversation along those lines?

----------
From my perspective it seems that you and the other guy are trying with all your might to push gender into everything. And you are interpreting every single thing in convoluted ways to fit that.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Channel72 »

Purple wrote:Thing is, I can't really understand just what kind of forces these could be. They can't be a product of the workplace as these women are not even applying to education and thus have no contact with the workplace. And they can't be the product of established cultural norms because the entire branch of science did not exist 100 years ago, let alone in the times when cultural norms were actually being established.
See Alyrium's post. Women in the US and Europe are less likely to go into technical fields because of various cultural norms and expectations. The medical field is an interesting exception, but even that is a very recent phenomenon. The US and Europe are way behind places like India in terms of the percentage of females going into STEM careers, and the cultural forces which cause this are pretty well understood.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

1) Which of those are not in relation to America. Since my experiences and point of discussion is in relation to Europe and not america.
Sooooo let me get this straight. You are going to make the claim that two regions that share a great deal in common:

Similar histories WRT womens rights, womens suffrage, workplace occupancy etc. Similar cultures with regard to gender roles, religion etc.

Are somehow magically different in terms of the causation for the exact same societal problem?

I knew you were stupid Purple but come the fuck on.
2) I have yet to see a written test that can be evaluated unfairly without raising an eyebrow. And again, I am not talking employment here but education. All entrance tests as well as all of my actual exams are written.
You did not read even the abstracts for those papers. ANY performance evaluation. This can be entrance exams, CVs, annual performance reviews, full job applications. Anything with any kind of subjective component (so, not a multiple choice exam). That means that even if a young woman's answer on an essay examination is identical to a young mans' her answer will be judged more harshly if the subject is in science mathematics engineering or tech. On average. The same goes for her CV or resume, annual performance reviews when she gets hired etc.

This means that two otherwise identical people, one male one female, get treated very differently in say, a CSE course. Better grades on the CSE project for the boy even though the end product is functionally identical. Better letters of recommendation from professors and internships for the young man. Everything. Who do you think, of these two, is going to get hired, even though their actual performance is identical? Who do you think is going to get discouraged and change university majors to something else like pre-industrial european history or something?

It does not even matter that computer science is less than a century old. Math is not. Science in general is not. The cultural norms and gendered expectations in question are generalized to the sciences--including math and engineering of all kinds--they are not particular to CS.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by cmdrjones »

Zeropoint wrote:
#1 Ripley is a PLAUSIBLE feminine heroine. She fights to save a daughter figure and uses her experience with the Xenomorphs to survive. The only part that bothered me was her superhuman shoes that kept a ton of alien queen from ripping her leg off before it finally go spaced.

#2 Sarah Connor is likewise Plausible... she trained for years to become the badass she was and was still obviously NO match for either the T-101 OR the T-1000. She accomplished what she did vs the guards/cops/psychologist, but it was still necessary for the T-101s strength and John Connors pluck, (and the black scientists incredible moral conversion and self sacrifice) to win the day.
This is REALLY coming across as you saying "female heroes are only 'plausible' when they succeed in narrowly defined feminine roles or need male help."
No retard, because they are normal people without superpowers.... Buffy is plausible as well.... Plausible, look it up. Not the same word as realistic.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by cmdrjones »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Why does plausibility matter at all? There is nothing plausible about 99% of action/sci-fi movies. Why is it that plausibility is only an issue with respect to the gender of the protagonist?

Plausible is NOT the same word as realistic.... plausible means internally consistent, does not threaten the suspension of disbelief and so on.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by cmdrjones »

Channel72 wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:Some MRA's might still claim that ALiens and Terminator 2 are feminist propaganda, but I would NOT (despite supporting some MRA ideas, despite not being one)
Okay. So, honestly I really have very little interest in researching any "MRA ideas" (I can't even say the words "Men's Rights" without rolling my eyes...) So can you summarize some of their ideas that you think are good?

I mean, I'm a white male living in the US, and I've never once really felt concerned for my rights - at least not in relation to women. (I am concerned a bit about my rights regarding NSA stuff and certain privacy issues, but that's non-gender related...) Essentially, white skin + penis + heterosexuality = immediate advantage. I'm never afraid some guy is going to "judge me" at a job interview, or that the police are going to be suspicious of me, or that I'll get sexually harassed by my boss, or that I'll make less money for any reason other than my skillset, or whatever. Women and minorities, however, do have to worry about those things quite a bit still, although for women in particular their success rate seems to vary depending on their field. (It seems women are making good progress in the medical field - with a lot of women MDs coming out of the top medical schools, but women are still doing horribly in the tech field, because of all sorts of cultural biases and whatnot, which is really sad because one of the most brilliant programmers I know is a woman). So... um, why exactly do I need some "group" looking out for my rights as a (white) male?

Ever had mandatory 'diversity' training? Ever approached a woman or had an interaction with one that she didn't like? Ever had a conversation with a divorce lawyer or a cop about 'domestics' in the US? Ever met a divorced male or kids if said male whose wife filed for divorce for reasons THEY found to be unreasonable?
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Channel72 »

cmdrjones wrote:Ever had mandatory 'diversity' training?
No, but I've been involved in the decision making process regarding how or when to enforce such training. Diversity training may come off like some Michael Scott corporate joke, but when you have transgender interns and whatnot, it can actually be useful. But really, "diversity training" essentially amounts to: "please don't be a fucking dick, or we'll have to fire you."
cmdrjones wrote:Ever approached a woman or had an interaction with one that she didn't like?
Really?

All I can say is that paranoia about some vengeful woman ruining your life via a sexual harrasment lawsuit is mostly just that... paranoia. The reality is that if some woman with a net-worth of less than $100 million dollars actually tried that in the upper echelons of corporate America, the Old Boys Club powers-that-be would fuck her over so bad she'd be lucky to be eligible for foodstamps by next week. And really, the idea of any arbitrary woman being able to ruin you life with a sexual harrassment lawsuit is a total myth based on a few high-profile cases. The reality is that most sexual harrassment lawsuits never go anywhere. Filing a sexual harrassment lawsuit is not something you do lightly - it takes time, resources, it drains your life and can potentially destroy your career if you fuck up. Most sexual harassment lawsuits are not even successful - they are dismissed as having "no reasonable cause" - they are just as risky for the woman filing the lawsuit as the accused man. Actual monetary settlements to the aggrieved party happen a little over 10% of the time - or a bit over 15% if you count out of court settlements.
Ever had a conversation with a divorce lawyer or a cop about 'domestics' in the US?
Yeah. Something like over 80% of US cops are men and they tend to side with other men over them "crazy bitches". Yeah, men have it soooo bad in the US.
Ever met a divorced male or kids if said male whose wife filed for divorce for reasons THEY found to be unreasonable?
Really? You realize that up until like... 2 minutes ago, women in the US didn't even have the luxury of even thinking about divorce without being dragged through the mud and socially crucified. Get some fucking perspective.

Whatever - I just don't fucking understand this weird need to be a victim. If you're a white heterosexual male in the US, you've already got a head start. Can someone explain to me exactly why again we're trying to pretend otherwise here?
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by The Romulan Republic »

While I think you have some valid points, Channel72, I also think you're oversimplifying a little. While I certainly would not claim that white heterosexual men are, on average, as persecuted as or more persecuted than other groups, I do think that saying someone is better off simply because of that, regardless of any other factors in their background/life, is stretching it a bit. Sure, there's certain kinds of bullshit you probably won't have to deal with, but on the whole their are poor white boys in America who have it way worse than, say, Obama's daughters ever will. Obviously those are the exceptions, not the rule. But their are about a million things that can fuck up your life and set you back, and I just don't like it when people treat the average or the norm like a universal truth because its not honest/accurate and it reinforces the idea of treating people as homogenous groups, not individuals.

I also confess I that I resent your implication (though I don't know if it was your intent to imply it) that a cop being a man, in and of itself, makes them likely to be misogynist. Being a man does not make you a misogynist. Being an ignorant asshole does.

Edit: This in no way invalidates the reality of their being a pattern/average of white heterosexual men in general having it better in certain ways, or of that being a sickening injustice. I wish to be very clear on that.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Ever had mandatory 'diversity' training?
Yeah. It does not bother me. Because heaven forbid a company or in my case university have a training seminar about not being a douchebag toward co-workers.
Ever approached a woman or had an interaction with one that she didn't like?
Yeah. Gay Men vs Lesbians. Laser tag. I thought they light-heartedly called me a cocksucker when they shot me full of photons, responded back with shit-giving about diving in muffs. They took offense I realized they had not called me a cocksucker.

I apologized. It was fine. We're friends now.

Here is a newsflash for you. Women are not there to please you. They have their own lives and their own shit to do, and you just walking up out of nowhere might be a bit creepy or at least annoying. They might tell you to get bent. If you dont get the hint and persist, you are being a douchebag. If you engage in unwanted touching, you are a really creepy douchebag who may--depending on their tolerances not what yours would be in the same conditions--be exposing yourself to liability of one sort or another. If you work with them, you may be creating a work environment that makes it difficult for them to do their job--which I reiterate is not to please you.

Now fuck off you patriarchal entitled pieces of shit.

Ever had a conversation with a divorce lawyer or a cop about 'domestics' in the US?
Yeah. I had to pack up and run to a women's shelter in the middle of the night when I was a kid. Twice. Plenty of conversations with cops and lawyers. Plenty of bruises too. Fuck you.
Ever met a divorced male or kids if said male whose wife filed for divorce for reasons THEY found to be unreasonable?
Yeah, I have been the kid. Turns out abusers dont think it is reasonable for the mother of the kids they (the father) abuses to divorce them and take the kids.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Edit: This in no way invalidates the reality of their being a pattern/average of white heterosexual men in general having it better in certain ways, or of that being a sickening injustice. I wish to be very clear on that.
Then why are you talking except to be a pedantic shite?

No Shit there are poor white people.

But if I take two otherwise identical people, the black person has it worse. And it is additive. Black women have it worse than white women, who have it worse than white men. Yeah, sometimes people get lucky, but people of color, women, and sexual/gender minorities have a harder time achieving in life, a harder time keeping what they have, and have a harder time extricating themselves from runs of bad luck or poor prior life choices.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Edit: This in no way invalidates the reality of their being a pattern/average of white heterosexual men in general having it better in certain ways, or of that being a sickening injustice. I wish to be very clear on that.
Then why are you talking except to be a pedantic shite?
It annoys me that people treat generalizations as absolutes and oversimplify the world. You can call it pedantic, but I feel its important to point out the subtleties and complexities of life from time to time. Though I'll admit I do have nitpicking tendencies.
No Shit there are poor white people.

But if I take two otherwise identical people, the black person has it worse.
I do not disagree.
And it is additive. Black women have it worse than white women, who have it worse than white men. Yeah, sometimes people get lucky, but people of color, women, and sexual/gender minorities have a harder time achieving in life, a harder time keeping what they have, and have a harder time extricating themselves from runs of bad luck or poor prior life choices.
Generally speaking, I do not disagree with this either. Which I think I made clear already.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by cmdrjones »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Ever had mandatory 'diversity' training?
Yeah. It does not bother me. Because heaven forbid a company or in my case university have a training seminar about not being a douchebag toward co-workers.
Ever approached a woman or had an interaction with one that she didn't like?
Yeah. Gay Men vs Lesbians. Laser tag. I thought they light-heartedly called me a cocksucker when they shot me full of photons, responded back with shit-giving about diving in muffs. They took offense I realized they had not called me a cocksucker.

I apologized. It was fine. We're friends now.

Here is a newsflash for you. Women are not there to please you. They have their own lives and their own shit to do, and you just walking up out of nowhere might be a bit creepy or at least annoying. They might tell you to get bent. If you dont get the hint and persist, you are being a douchebag. If you engage in unwanted touching, you are a really creepy douchebag who may--depending on their tolerances not what yours would be in the same conditions--be exposing yourself to liability of one sort or another. If you work with them, you may be creating a work environment that makes it difficult for them to do their job--which I reiterate is not to please you.

Now fuck off you patriarchal entitled pieces of shit.

Ever had a conversation with a divorce lawyer or a cop about 'domestics' in the US?
Yeah. I had to pack up and run to a women's shelter in the middle of the night when I was a kid. Twice. Plenty of conversations with cops and lawyers. Plenty of bruises too. Fuck you.
Ever met a divorced male or kids if said male whose wife filed for divorce for reasons THEY found to be unreasonable?
Yeah, I have been the kid. Turns out abusers dont think it is reasonable for the mother of the kids they (the father) abuses to divorce them and take the kids.
#1 So you admit Mandatory diversity training is about ensuring no one has any thoughts you don't like. Replace douchebag with Jew and then get back to me on that one.

#2 I'll see your gay vs lesbians and raise you blacks vs Hispanics & whites in platoon wrestling matches. Should the Hispanics have all been prosecuted for calling for 'white boy support'?

#3 Granted. All I said was an 'interaction' which is kinda vague, so I'll be more specific: a casual verbal interaction. You don't have the right to not be offended, especially in the world of grownups. I had a black Sergeant Major state to me that my headcold in Kuwait was due to white people having weaker immune systems. I was offended, but I looked it up and in the context of certain tropical diseases, he was right, but even if he had been wrong, it never would have occurred to me to complain about him and try to get him in trouble, because he is allowed to have an opinion and talk, even in public and stuff. It's called liberty.

#4 Capitalizing THEY includes the kids, so it doesn't apply to you then Mr Man.
I can count on two hands the number of decent men I know who, good men, have been divorced or abused by women working he system for cash & prizes. I am sorry for your situation and that you got caught up in the system and had to deal with an abusive asshole.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

#1 So you admit Mandatory diversity training is about ensuring no one has any thoughts you don't like. Replace douchebag with Jew and then get back to me on that one.
That is not what I said. You need to go learn how to read.

Not being a douchebag toward is not the same as "thought police".

I dont give a shit about what some slack jawed yokel in Alabama thinks about black people. I care about how they act. If they are not civil toward their black co-workers, they should not have a job. They should also be told what company policy is with respect to being un-civil toward black co-workers. The same goes for women, gay people etc.

Also here it is.

"Yeah. It does not bother me. Because heaven forbid a company or in my case university have a training seminar about not being a Jew toward co-workers."

That statement, the little noun replacement you asked me to make, does not make any sense. Moreover, douchebaggery is a set of behavior. It is not an immutable characteristic. It is also universally undesirable. If you start bullying your co-workers or handing out KKK pamphlets at work, you should be fired. Just Being a Jew In Public is not in any way objectionable.
#2 I'll see your gay vs lesbians and raise you blacks vs Hispanics & whites in platoon wrestling matches. Should the Hispanics have all been prosecuted for calling for 'white boy support'?
No. In fact your line of argument does not make any sense with respect to what I actually wrote. What, did you break your own nose with your own knee-jerk reaction to a reasonable position such that you were blinded by man-tears?
#3 Granted. All I said was an 'interaction' which is kinda vague, so I'll be more specific: a casual verbal interaction. You don't have the right to not be offended, especially in the world of grownups. I had a black Sergeant Major state to me that my headcold in Kuwait was due to white people having weaker immune systems. I was offended, but I looked it up and in the context of certain tropical diseases, he was right, but even if he had been wrong, it never would have occurred to me to complain about him and try to get him in trouble, because he is allowed to have an opinion and talk, even in public and stuff. It's called liberty.
Backpedal faster.

1. It is an NCOs job to give you shit. Even if he had been wrong, he was within his job description.
2. No one is going to report you for talking about the weather. That is a casual verbal conversation. Repeatedly complimenting a woman's hair is creepy.
3. Free speech requires the free and open exchange of ideas. It is not free license to sexually harass your co-workers. Your rights end where theirs begin. They should not have to leave their fucking job and risk destitution so you can continue to be a creep.

That is basic human decency.
I can count on two hands the number of decent men I know who, good men, have been divorced or abused by women working he system for cash & prizes.
And you know them to be good men how exactly? Do you see them every second of every day? LOTS of people think that someone else is good and decent because they dont know otherwise. Yes, abusive women exist. They should be stopped (obviously), yes people who take advantage of others for money are bad and should be stopped (obviously). But I also know that just about every abusive son of a bitch alive, when divorced, will claim that their wife was a gold-digging whore. Every unhappy marriage--even those without abuse--ends with both parties inflating a list of grievances that bears little to no relationship to reality. Especially when common property (part of every marriage in common law systems) gets divided up and child support becomes an issue.

So your pithy anecdotes mean exactly nothing.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Channel72 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:While I certainly would not claim that white heterosexual men are, on average, as persecuted as or more persecuted than other groups, I do think that saying someone is better off simply because of that, regardless of any other factors in their background/life, is stretching it a bit
Yes I agree. I made that statement with an implicit "all other things being equal" qualifier. I thought that would be obvious. I mean it goes without saying that a white heterosexual male - who's also like, blind and paraplegic or something, has it worse than a homosexual minority or whatever. But that's not really the point here.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Fair enough I guess.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Purple wrote: Since when is plausibility not something discussed in regard to movie plots? Have you newer had a conversation along those lines?
I like how you subtly try to avoid the point of my post, here. What does the gender of the protagonist have to do with plausibility of the plot? Like, at all? Especially in the context of action/sci-fi movies. Yeah, it's fun to talk about the plausibility of the world-building and scenarios and plot structure of a film. I do it all the time. But where does gender come in, at all? You said:

" "female heroes are only 'plausible' when they succeed in things that are them self plausible."

But why does "female" need to be in this sentence? Does this sentence not apply equally well to male heroes? If so, why are you bringing gender into it at all?

EDIT: I do realize that quote I took of yours is out of context. I am not trying to misrepresent you. I simply feel that particular quote is somewhat representative of the broader arguments you and cmdrjones have been making in this thread, which is why I chose it. I do realize that the proper context of that quote is a bit different than my post seems to imply, which I do apologize for.
Purple wrote: From my perspective it seems that you and the other guy are trying with all your might to push gender into everything. And you are interpreting every single thing in convoluted ways to fit that.
Point to one thing I have interpreted in a convoluted way, you lying sack of shit.

Also, it is extraordinarily ironic that you are accusing me, and others, of trying to push gender into everything, when the entire argument that I (and Alyrium, and others) are making is that GENDER DOESN'T AND SHOULDN'T FUCKING MATTER. Look at this entire damned thread. It's people like you and cmdrjones that are obsessively bringing up the issue of gender, and trying to find reasons why female protagonists should be treated differently than male protagonists. You are the ones that insinuated having strong female protagonists could be considered propaganda (without explaining why the converse of that statement, i.e. not having any strong female characters, would not be equally true).
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by Purple »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Also, it is extraordinarily ironic that you are accusing me, and others, of trying to push gender into everything, when the entire argument that I (and Alyrium, and others) are making is that GENDER DOESN'T AND SHOULDN'T FUCKING MATTER. Look at this entire damned thread. It's people like you and cmdrjones that are obsessively bringing up the issue of gender, and trying to find reasons why female protagonists should be treated differently than male protagonists. You are the ones that insinuated having strong female protagonists could be considered propaganda (without explaining why the converse of that statement, i.e. not having any strong female characters, would not be equally true).
No, that is what you are doing all this time. You are the ones trying to obsessively accuse us of somehow bringing gender into things. Where as I am the one pointing that strange thing out. You are the one constantly pushing some sort of gender identity politics thing here, not I.

Like here:
Ziggy Stardust wrote:But why does "female" need to be in this sentence? Does this sentence not apply equally well to male heroes? If so, why are you bringing gender into it at all?
Of course the sentence applies equally to males, transgendered people, robots-ninjas from mars etc. But we aren't talking about robot-ninjas from mars here. That's not the topic of our conversation.

Like, say we were having a conversation on apples for 2 days now. And at some point I wrote a sentence that goes: "Gravity always makes apples drop." Does that sentence need the word "apples" in it? After all, gravity makes bananas drop too! That's your argument.

From my perspective. You are accusing me of somehow being racist against bananas for not mentioning them as well even though the conversation is about apples.

Do I need to qualify every single sentence I make by making sure I cover all the possible other groups even though they do not fit into the context of the discussion? I think not. Especially not when my original post was me trying to clarify a sentence someone else made that you took out of context in this very same way which prompted me needing to clarify it in the first place.

You are like some god dam vulture picking posts apart in search of single sentences that you can use to paint the other side in a negative light.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: MRAs to boycott Mad Max for being "feminist propaganda"

Post by cmdrjones »

No Shit there are poor white people.

But if I take two otherwise identical people, the black person has it worse.
I do not disagree.
And it is additive. Black women have it worse than white women, who have it worse than white men. Yeah, sometimes people get lucky, but people of color, women, and sexual/gender minorities have a harder time achieving in life, a harder time keeping what they have, and have a harder time extricating themselves from runs of bad luck or poor prior life choices.
Generally speaking, I do not disagree with this either. Which I think I made clear already.
So, two IDENTICAL people in two IDENTICAL situations, with the ONLY difference being race and the BLACK person has it worse? Wow. Just wow. and people think IM racist! Holy shit! I can tell without a shadow of a doubt that black people kinda like being black and if you told them this, they'd probably be a TAD upset at your characterization of their race ALONE automatically making their lives worse than white peoples lives... :shock:
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