Tarot, Palms, Other Clairvoyancies (& Homosexuality?)

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-14 09:00am

verilon wrote:I think that you're just bullshitting yourself because you're too scared to admit that there really was somehting happening and that you couldn't rationally explain it.

On the contrary. In a number of cases I *could* rationally explain it. In other cases, i couldn't, but generally this is for the lack of the proper equipment to study my environment.

Just because I can't explain what happened, doesn't mean that I have to automatically go with the 'ghosts' explanation. That's a creationist/ religionist view, to automatically blame anything you can't or are unwilling to explain rationally on invisible beings. I wish Mike Wong followed this thread, as he'd do a better job of explaining the fallacy than I.

I'm saying that you have to explore EVERY phenomenon with a balanced point of view, and not be willing to write things off to mysticism when you get stuck or afraid - especially if you're afraid. You have to push past that. The only reason people get afraid of such experiences is because they've been indoctrinated to believe that there's a conscious entity behind it, or an intelligent mind directing it. If it was random phenomena, you'd be less frightened of it.

Science pushes past fears of what it doesn't understand, describes the rules that govern what you're afraid of, and designs and invents ways to behave or control the phenomena so that it is safer for us to interact with, live with, or study.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-10-14 11:09am

Because you'll still have to find a number of poeple willing to be involved in such an experiment, PLUS labs tend to decrease the potential of such a "spot" as there are, because it is so confining. You can't just put someone in a controlled environment and say, "Here you are, read my future." It doesn't work that way. Skeptics are not able to see, because they block the idea of the future actually being there...There is a mental block..you concentrate too much on the fact that you don't want it to happen, you don't want anbyone to see what goes on in your life, so nothing happens, it is too vague.

Same copout. The fact remains that you can write any failures off by blaming the person's lack of "faith" or whatever you want.

Why not put a believer in a controlled environment with you?

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-10-14 11:23am

wow, someone revived this, ok. From my last post on this, and having my Tarot reading done by Verilon last week, I am alas, still a skeptic. It was vague, didn't answer my question but rather gave me advice that I could have given to me... that I have given to me from some simple psycho-analysis. Sorry Verilon, I am not a believer.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-14 04:35pm

Lag: I am neither a creationist nor much of a spiritualist...

Durandal: Because there is no telling whether that controlled environment will suffice with good energy flow.

Larz: I knew this. And it's not psychoanalysis, unless you want to give us a definition of psychoanalysis and how it is psychoanalysis.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-10-14 07:29pm

Would you quit with this quasi-spiritual nonsense? How can you expect rational people to take you seriously when you riddle your "magic powers" with disclaimers based upon environments and subjects which effectively allow you to dismiss any failure on any grounds you care to, avoiding fault or doubt in your supposed psychic powers?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-14 08:36pm

The more readers you find, the more you will hear this.

*thwaps Durandal*

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-14 09:03pm

The end is nigh! FEAR!

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-14 09:16pm

verilon wrote:Lag: I am neither a creationist nor much of a spiritualist...

I know. I didn't say you were. I was just trying to make you aware that you were using bad logic. The same bad logic that creationists use with alarming frequency.

Looking at the way this thread is going, I wouldn't try to press any point that interprets that your beliefs have scientific merit. It's a sinking ship.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-14 11:41pm

How's this then:

If one can believe ina Supreme Being (God, Allah, Buddha, whomever) with a total lack of scientific evidence, then these too could be disprovem from a secular view. Now, I challenge you this: If you believe in God, with only Faith as your guide, who are you to say that my belief does not exist, becaue this is led by MY faith?

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-10-15 12:15am

Hey; If it works, use it...

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-15 12:19am

Or better yet, if you can't scientifically prove whether God exists, how can you dis/prove clairvoyance? In essence, God/ess (whether He/She/It/They exist/s or not) is simply a metaphysical being, and clairvoyance is simply metaphysical energy flow.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-10-15 12:20am

If one can believe ina Supreme Being (God, Allah, Buddha, whomever) with a total lack of scientific evidence, then these too could be disprovem from a secular view. Now, I challenge you this: If you believe in God, with only Faith as your guide, who are you to say that my belief does not exist, becaue this is led by MY faith?

That's just the thing. They're both bullshit. God just happens to be more popular bullshit.

Or better yet, if you can't scientifically prove whether God exists, how can you dis/prove clairvoyance? In essence, God/ess (whether He/She/It/They exist/s or not) is simply a metaphysical being, and clairvoyance is simply metaphysical energy flow.

You can't prove anything scientifically; you can only demonstrate consistency with observation. You can disprove clairvoyance by testing its predictions in a controlled environment. You can logically disprove the existence of god by simply saying that those making the claim have no evidence to support it.

Why does this "energy flow" resolve itself only into predictions of the future? Physical stimuli can illicit multiple responses in the brain (a beautiful naked woman could trigger a sexual fantasy in an 18 year-old male, while triggering disgust or revulsion in a conservative female). If this mysterious energy interacts physically, it is a physical phenomenon. Why can't it illicit different kinds of responses in the brain? Why only predictions of future events? Where does this energy get its information?

Just give up and admit your Tarot beliefs are logically and scientifically invalid.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-15 12:21am

According to you, and am I to assume you're an atheist?

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2002-10-15 12:05pm

Observations of the behaviors, actions, and thoughts of an individual that are analysised for the understanding of the motives, personalitym, and general issues of the person being observed. Such knowledge can then be applyed to pick out the most relevant and/or helpfull advice for a person that will fit their personality the best. You ask questions, observe responses, build a picture of the person being analyzed, spit out a logical response to their wants. The cards simply give you guiding points towards broad generalizations of a situation which the reader gives definition to based on the dynamics of the one getting the reading. Even if its not psychoanalysis its basic generalization of things that occur in all humans, basic, well rounded advice. Basically the cards didn't answer my question at all, rather it just gave me advice that I would have given, that most people would give about love. But their was psychoanalysis though, you asked me questions that gave you a strong base to make the definitions off of. "you just have to tell her your feelings, get it out, your beating yourself up not knowing, and despite the outcome it will bring relief." Basically it said, tell her, I don't know what she'll say, but it will be of your chest... now who couldn't come up with that advice by just listening? Pure bunk.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-15 12:40pm

Frankly, I think Durandal did an good job of answering your challenge.

I believe in neither gods nor spooks, nor anything of that nature. There is one over-arching reason for this: There is no evidence to support any of it.

You cannot come up with any evidence to support your claims that what you are experiencing is the ability to see into the future. We *can* however, examine a psychic for examples of anything that would indicate they interact with the universe in any way different than normal people. THEY DON'T.

Since we can't measure any difference between you and the next bloke, how can you claim to be interacting with something different? People claim to 'feel god' in their presence, 'feel watched by ghosts', 'feel the spirits', 'feel interaction with metaphysical energies', 'feel your aura', etc. It's all in your imagination.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-21 09:36am

Two things while I am digging up this thread:

First, to Lag: I did not offer a challenge to Durandal...he challenged my views. Let's let it rest at that, no more discussion on the topic, please...I've had enough defending myself. (I could still do, it, I'm just sick and tired of it)

Second, I think we missed some of the points made particularly by the subject in itself.

I was wondering as well if there is some sort of thing going on here...a lot of females I know are clairvoyant, or seers of some sort. Also, there is a large portion of gay people that happen to have these abilities as well. I wanted to know if anybody thought there might be a connection here? I mean, I don't know *any* straight guys that have this talent...

My opinions, my thoughts. Answer if you will, but please don't bash on me.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2002-10-21 09:43am

From one believe to another, the answer is no. There is no connection. I know several "straight" guys who have abilities. And concidering all I know are guys, that's a pretty good indication.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-21 09:44am

Heh heh...it just seems that there are a lot of gay/bi people down here...I dunno....there were a few gay people at school, and all but one person I know that has the ability down here is gay or bi...

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2002-10-21 09:53am

That's just a location thing. I live in the middle of the South and all my friends are Pagan/Wiccan.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-21 09:55am

Heh. Guess so. But it always has seemed strange to me. And then, of course, the hated stereotype...all gays/bis/lesbians are pagan/Wiccan...grrr...

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2002-10-21 09:59am

Just like all goths are gay/bi/lesbians... granted that's MOSTLY true.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-21 09:59am

THAT one's actually a new one....

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-21 10:01am

Don't worry, verilon. Always remember that a good debater is attacking your statements, not yourself. You may be criticized for failing to defend those points, but them's the rules. In the end, we can just disagree and be done with it until someone more qualified than us dredges up some evidence worth discussing.

As for your homosexual-clairvoyant connection, and bearing in mind my obvious leaning, I'd assume it was a social connection. fifteen years ago, pop gay culture was still in the 'fringe' (it may still be considered so, I don't keep up with sociology). Most of the gay people I knew in university tended to mix socially with legitimate fringe groups such as goths and psychics. By the same token, the white hetero jocks and geeks, metalheads and fratkid kind of people I knew tended to be largely withdrawn from the 'psychics' social group, and so while they knew it existed, tended to be unaffected by it and uninvolved in it, and, thusly, didn't put themselves into a position of exploring their imagination and dreams for proof of ghosts and visions of the future.

(In retrospect, I'm probably not explaining this argument well, but I'll post it anyway and hope for the best)

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-21 10:03am

I see your point...and that's really all I have to say in response...but one must admit that it is hard to argue metaphysics against physical science, ne?

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-21 10:15am

verilon wrote:I see your point...and that's really all I have to say in response...but one must admit that it is hard to argue metaphysics against physical science, ne?

It is. But either way, think about this: I've heard from some psychics that people aren't necessarily always born 'attuned', but that they can become attuned through social training and an open mind. If I'm right about the social connection, that would make sense. You can't open yourself to a possibility without being a part of the community that explores those possibilities.

(That said, I of course don't beleive in the paranormal, but I'm willing at least to give it a fair shake for the purposes of exploring your question)

(And on a related yet thread-hijacking note, I REALLY wish I was young enough to play that MTV 'Fear' game they show on YTV in Canada. That would be my idea of a fun five grand.)