The german wehrmacht in Modern America (RAR!)

[Beowulf]

KBAD is probably out of range of the Germans. It's 541 miles from KATL. Similarly, most of south Florida should be out of range. Also to be noted: there's often a bunch of runways near each other in the States. As such, it can be expected that the Germans would confuse civil airports for military ones, resulting in little dinky regional airports getting plastered. Especially on the first night, with the bombings being done under darkness.

Fortifying up tanks as armored strong points only matters if they can't get plinked off by air power. Which they will be, unless they can't be seen from the air.

[K. A. Pital]

Like mentioned before, returning most aircraft is pointless (nowhere to land 130 000 machines and no possibility to refuel), so like 70% of the German airforce can consider this a one-way mission. With jet aircraft as in the second scenario (Ju-287 or Arados, or a mix thereof) they would be there in slightly over one hour. Of course, it is probable the US will raise some aircraft, but I doubt it could save all.

Germans are not bombing during the first night either, they do not have resources and tech for reliable night bombing and most LW planes will have dropped their loads by nighttime, having absolutely no way of replenishing either them or the fuel. It is six hours of mad bombing with extreme surprise and then pretty much nothing for the Germans.

I am sure plinking tanks from the air in urban environments with buildings covering them from the sides is not an easy task (especially with a bit of camouflage), and the USAF would have a hard time to blow up some 67 000 tanks and SPGs, 345 000 APCs and 150 k other vehicles, not to mention every captured pickup truck with a machinegun fitted on the rear.

[Simon_Jester]

The tanks being dug in as strongpoints are arguably BAD, because if the US ever goes on the counteroffensive in the area those tanks will die about as fast as Saddam Hussein's did... and tanks used as bunkers are NOT available to support further offensives and gain further territory to spread out into.

I buy that, but only after considering that every US airbase within the Luftwaffe's range from Georgia has been destroyed. I'm giving some credit to the surprise factor and US unreadiness for this type of implausible scenario. Meanwhile, any US airbase outside of the Luftwaffe's range is going to be free to conduct sorties, pretty much with impunity. And I completely agree with other comments that the US will have complete supremacy in the air. My main concern is with US vulnerabilities on the ground, given the number disparity, which others have addressed...

What it's going to come down to, though, is that by Day Three or so, the lead panzer units will be in very bad shape even assuming they still have supplies of spare parts and ammunition to keep moving. The enormous steamroller of marching Wehrmacht infantry is still spreading outwards (probably having to shove cars bodily off the roads as they go), but the near-complete freedom to ooperate airstrikes above their positions means they will be vulnerable to massive casualties whenever they mass in the open.

This is going to get very demoralizing very fast- watching all your tanks get blown up, then watching a MOAB obliterate an entire regiment in a huge fireball, then having cluster-bombs kill the regiment to your west... at some point people just surrender rather than face certain death for doubtful chance of ever getting to attack the enemy.

And then there are nuclear weapons- while the US military would be reluctant to deploy nuclear weapons in this scenario, if you're dealing with a huge carpet of advancing Nazi infantry in the open field, that's a relatively pure 'military' target.

The Germans can't launch enough planes to make this strategy [of attacking US planes on the ground]* work. By the second or third day, in terms of organized bomber sorties with a realistic chance of destroying a significant target, they may not be able to sortie more than 2000-3000 aircraft... and it takes hundreds of planes to wipe out each airfield. And they'll see you coming and have interceptors in the air to slaughter your planes in large numbers on the way in.

And, for that matter, just be able to order grounded aircraft to take off and fly away to a more remote base until the danger is gone.

Ok, so the points here are fair and valid, but I'm not sure that due credit is being given to the (1) surprise factor, nor to the (2) advances the Germans are going to make.

The big issue there is that the advances the Germans are going to make can't give them instantaneous control over facilities whose operations they barely understand.

Let's say that I'm the German commander in chief of this Timeswitched Expeditionary Force from the Fatherland. As Zor laid out, I have maps, objectives, and I already have planes in the air and a whole bunch of others smashed together in positions on the ground. Putting aside any other assumptions, I'm going to understand that:

a) Georgia is a very small place to stage 20 million people, what with feeding them and living space and all that.
b) I will need to start expanding and campaigning IMMEDIATELY just to support my force, much less defeat the enemy.
c) I will probably have complete surprise for the first few hours.

Fine. So, right away, I'm going to set forth my force into several different campaigns, each of which has a strategic reserve since I literally have that many soldiers. One campaign is going to drive west toward Texas across the Gulf Coast, and the other campaign is going to drive North toward Washington, DC and NYC. My orders will be to move as quickly as possible and obtain as much ground as possible. Literally, drive as far as you can, and keep driving as long as you have fuel. Soldiers can forage from the land as needed.

The main problem they're going to run into is that the roads are choked and the enemy is sending military columns with overwhelming tactical superiority back down those roads, probably with orders to "approach to contact," and with enemy reconnaissance assets diverting the enemy response columns to block any really major advance by my foraging/advancing columns.

Remember that the basic parameters of the threat here is a gigantic swarm of (by modern standards) lightly armed infantry, supported by a much smaller (though still very numerous) force of mechanized infantry. The light infantry can't be killed fast enough to stop them (without preparatory air bombardment and more troops deployed than the US Army can quickly get into the field). But the armored units, the ones that will perforce lead any attempt to punch deep into US territory, are going to be bleeding horribly in short order.

Of course there would be tanks left: they would be fortified with bags and placed inside towns as armored strongpoints. Another thing to consider is that the USAF has less than 200 strategic bombers, and some of them will perish during bombing of Shreveport, not to mention inevitable attrition losses. Not sure if all of them are even inside the US right now. At most, the first night the US could throw around 3 000 000 tons of bomb ordinance,

That figure is off. Three million is too many, three thousand is too few... where are your calculations coming from?

but that is if the US can even understand what just happened and order fullscale urban bombardment against their own cities. I am not sure they will immediately understand the scale of the invasion. Meanwhile, the dispersal of German units across the entire state - even on trucks carrying guns is to be expected, as they do not want to remain a big fat target.

The problem is that you physically have to park yourselves and your vehicles somewhere, and the Wehrmacht is not a guerilla force. They have a well defined command structure and are trained to operate in large, formed units. There will be a lot of concentrated targets for airstrikes, even if they won't be as concentrated as was the situation at the beginning of the firstday.

They are likely to take all cars in the Atlanta area, too. Not sure how many the people have there, but most of them will likely get confiscated by the invading forces.

Hundreds of thousands- but now you have many at the controls of utterly new vehicles, with manual documentation most of them can't read. And in nearly all cases they can't be driven or even gotten into without specific keys... no one in the Wehrmacht knows how to hotwire a modern car, even assuming it's possible. Gas stations provide fuel they can't even access without engineering equipment, too- because the equipment is electronically activated.

As transportation, those cars are likely to leave a lot to be desired.

Hmm, it seems like around one car per person is the typical ownership rate for the place. That is another several hundred thousand vehicles, and the Germans would need them as being in a modern car reduces the chances of being hit by a missile or a bomb.

On the roads, yes. Parked in assembly areas where it's obvious to aerial observers that this is a troop concentration? Not so much.

[K. A. Pital]

The tanks being dug in as strongpoints are arguably BAD, because if the US ever goes on the counteroffensive in the area those tanks will die about as fast as Saddam Hussein's did... and tanks used as bunkers are NOT available to support further offensives and gain further territory to spread out into.

They have too much tanks to feasibly supply with fuel when initial stockpile runs out. That means a massive share of those will be just dead metal, but still dangerous. Even in the uber scenario they cannot feasibly refuel all 67000 KTs and Ferdinands, no matter how much they would like to, right? Gasoline we use now is suitably good for all their tech, as it is high-octane, but there is not enough of it to keep them running even if they capture every gas station in a 300-400 km circle.

The uber scenario is very favorable for the Nazi horde: their tanks, SPGs and APC are unified to the strongest type and they can endlessly cannibalize their own tanks for spare parts. Even a hodgepodge of tanks gives them room for cannibalizing machinery.

The USAF freedom means more during the first days as the Germans are less spread out, but the more they spread, the less it will mean as 19 million people are a lot (yes, now that I read Zor gave them an extra half a million repair mechanics and the like, they really have a force close to 20 mil.). Some 2000 airplanes cannot feasibly bomb the horde with enough intensity to demoralize it in entierty - only some units that are directly attacked.

I made a one zero mistake with 3 000 000, that should have been around 300 000 tons. First days do mean a lot, because the rampaging horde may not be easily slowed down by armoured formations, and for the US losing advanced equipment is a lot more critical than for the horde, which is mostly foot soldiers. If the US runs out of tanks and modern airplanes due to pure attrition because it has to run them every day, the battle will turn into a bloodbath as Germans have 20:1 superiority or even better in all directions.

[Beowulf]

Like mentioned before, returning most aircraft is pointless (nowhere to land 130 000 machines and no possibility to refuel), so like 70% of the German airforce can consider this a one-way mission. With jet aircraft as in the second scenario (Ju-287 or Arados, or a mix thereof) they would be there in slightly over one hour. Of course, it is probable the US will raise some aircraft, but I doubt it could save all.

Germans are not bombing during the first night either, they do not have resources and tech for reliable night bombing and most LW planes will have dropped their loads by nighttime, having absolutely no way of replenishing either them or the fuel. It is six hours of mad bombing with extreme surprise and then pretty much nothing for the Germans.

I am sure plinking tanks from the air in urban environments with buildings covering them from the sides is not an easy task (especially with a bit of camouflage), and the USAF would have a hard time to blow up some 67 000 tanks and SPGs, 345 000 APCs and 150 k other vehicles, not to mention every captured pickup truck with a machinegun fitted on the rear.

I was under the impression that the Germans all showed up during the night. Gives them the greatest surprise factor.

USAF isn't necessarily the only air assets blowing up tanks. There's also, Army helicopters, Marine aviation, and Naval aviation. More important is the Army helicopters. Without a Luftwaffe, there's not much defense against them. Also, without an effective Luftwaffe, the relatively numerous Predators can roam at will. And there's no German armored vehicle that can stand up to a Hellfire.

I don't think Ju-287s are really fitting under the uber level. They were, effectively, napkinwaffe. The second and later prototypes were never built to completion, and weren't too similar to the first prototype.

[Patroklos]

problem is that there aren't really any airbases to speak of south or east of the German positions- at least, none that are comfortably out of the range of "Luftwaffe will blow the hell out of this." So basically, the aircraft will still be taking off from the mid-Atlantic, the Midwest, and the Mississippi river valley, and hitting targets around Atlanta, then flying back to the same bases.

You may want to take another look at Navy and USAF bases in Florida.

Like mentioned before, returning most aircraft is pointless (nowhere to land 130 000 machines and no possibility to refuel), so like 70% of the German airforce can consider this a one-way mission. With jet aircraft as in the second scenario (Ju-287 or Arados, or a mix thereof) they would be there in slightly over one hour. Of course, it is probable the US will raise some aircraft, but I doubt it could save all.

Again why are we assuming any significant number of Luftwaffe personnel will be down for these one way missions? This was NOT a thing at any point in WWII.

[Borgholio]

Don't forget the carriers. Park 3 battle groups in the Caribbean and that's 150+ strike aircraft with enough armaments for a couple weeks of continuous action.

[Patroklos]

Yep, though we don't generally have any out there. There will probably be one operating off the South East Atlantic coast for workups and two or three parked in Norfolk. It would take the first a day and change to make it to the Gulf, Norfolk pierside ones a couple days. They could launch strikes from the Carolina/Georgia coast on the way. The ones pierside are probably not fully armed though, so initially it might make sense to put their airwings to work operating from land bases to blunt the initial German moves.

Also I brought this up earlier but people seem to be neglecting it. We are talking a lot about all the civilian traffic and it messing with the German advance. Its the Germans themselves that will contribute most to this problem. We are talking about millions of German vehicles trying to use infrustructure designed to handle a fraction of that number and them doing it simultaneously. Even in perfect weather with zero civilian traffic and no US airpower interference it would take days to get any signficant portion of the German vehicles out of ATL. Its only going to get worse as they move out of the urban areas, the SE is very low density and the interstates will become horrendous choke points (especially after the German heavy equipment turns the asphalt to pea gravel in short order).

[K. A. Pital]

I was under the impression they show up at daybreak (very early morning, sunrise) as to have the maximum surprise factor. Most people sleep by 4:00-5:00 am or so, and it is the worst time for defenders. I believe Barbarossa started early in the morning too.

Helicopters are not a good idea as the Germans field over 150 000 flak guns, and technically can make the territory they control an unassailable fortress for anything slower than 600 kph and lower than strategic bombing altitude. Losing equipment is affordable for the Nazi horde.

Ju-287 is the best shot at a heavy jet bomber they had, and given the third prototype could achieve projected characteristics (dropped due to being obsolete by 1947), I am wondering why not give it to them. Arados are good too, but that leaves the Horde with no heavy bomber.

Needless to remind the Horde also has a Panzerfaust for almost every second infantryman if not for every single one. Driving around in lightly armores vehicles in captured towns is a no-go.

Finally, the sortie rate for US air machinery cannot be too extreme, otherwise they will run out of modern planes faster, which given the extreme situation is not acceptable. Low-altitude runs are not acceptable due to the Flak fire intensity in the first days, while Germans are using up their ammo.

One way missions are natural given the fact Nazis have nowhere to land and they know it - they have maps and they know all the location of all US AFBs and they also know just how tiny the patch of land they initially control is.

About the roads: I mentioned shortly that the German armed groups could advance 150 km in two days over essentially swamps, roadless steppes and dirt roads. That is why they are likely to move out over roadless terrain at 30-40 km a day, which means by day three they will spread over a 300 km diameter circle, and the armoured units possibly much further, holding ground at 300 km away. The armoured units will reach these destinations by the middle of the second day, at most the end of it.

[Patroklos]

Helicopters are not a good idea as the Germans field over 150 000 flak guns, and technically can make the territory they control an unassailable fortress for anything slower than 600 kph and lower than strategic bombing altitude. Losing equipment is affordable for the Nazi horde.

Agreed at first, the Germans just have too many guns excellent at killing slow and low flying attack aircraft as that is what they were dealing with often enough in WWII. The problem is most of that flak in real life was not really designed to be moved so its going to remain in ATL, probably exactly where it materialized at. The Germans of course had plenty of tactical level mobile flak weaons in smaller calibres (and some larger) to protect their mobile formations. They are going to outrun most of it though if the try any sort of strke many here envision, and with Apaches shooting from miles away and use cover (unlike WWII fighter bombers) they will still be very devestating against whatever German forward elements actually make out of their staging areas. In anti armor configuration we are talking 16 hellfires with stanoff firing distances of up to five miles per ship. This will basically be the EXACT senario the AH-64 was designed for only with more trees and panzers instead of the Soviet horde.

One way missions are natural given the fact Nazis have nowhere to land and they know it - they have maps and they know all the location of all US AFBs and they also know just how tiny the patch of land they initially control is.

So what will probably happen is those not in the air will refuse to fly and those in the air will just find a place to land off the bat while they have the fuel to do so safetly. If we are postulating the actual individual Germans that existed in real life there is no way we should expect them to engage in basically suicide mission writ large. "They will all just parachute" is not a realistic expectation and if we didn't see it in the desperate conditions and situations they had in 1945 there is no way we will now when their families and homeland are not on the line.

About the roads: I mentioned shortly that the German armed groups could advance 150 km in two days over essentially swamps, roadless steppes and dirt roads. That is why they are likely to move out over roadless terrain at 30-40 km a day, which means by day three they will spread over a 300 km diameter circle, and the armoured units possibly much further, holding ground at 300 km away. The armoured units will reach these destinations by the middle of the second day, at most the end of it.

Except as I pointed out they were not doing it in anywhere near the concentrations of Barbarossa. And no, the terrain they were encountering was generally flat farmland. 3.1 million personnel for ALL of Barbarossa spread over 1000 miles, we are talking 20 million concetrated in a single city.

[K. A. Pital]

True: many guns were not designed for mobility, the heavier ones I mean. But they will keep Atlanta a dangerous target for anything except stealth and stratobombers. The light flak guns (around 100 000) were on the other hand quite mobile, some can be towed by the crew even, and sad as this sounds, a good shot from one of them will down a modern helicopter just like an old plane. Germans will hide them in the buildings and every house will become a possible danger. Mobile formations are unlikely to get good flak cover.

The concentration is unlikely to be hindering the Horde's forward units (there is no opposition to speak of, so you can move by just walking and shooting whoever dares to look bad your way), and we know they need to keep reserves behind in Atlanta too, though not too much. For the first days probably prudent to keep them in the city so that the US knows it has to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians if it wants to bomb the heart of the Horde.

[Patroklos]

True: many guns were not designed for mobility, the heavier ones I mean. But they will keep Atlanta a dangerous target for anything except stealth and stratobombers. The light flak guns (around 100 000) were on the other hand quite mobile, some can be towed by the crew even, and sad as this sounds, a good shot from one of them will down a modern helicopter just like an old plane. Germans will hide them in the buildings and every house will become a possible danger. Mobile formations are unlikely to get good flak cover.

The US is happy for the Wehrmacht to hunker down in those buildings because thats were we can starve them to death (more likely just negotiate their surrender). The point is wherever they are they will be hehind the German lead units and thats EXACTLY what AH-64s were designed to do, blunt armored spearheads.

The concentration is unlikely to be hindering the Horde's forward units (there is no opposition to speak of, so you can move by just walking and shooting whoever dares to look bad your way), and we know they need to keep reserves behind in Atlanta too, though not too much. For the first days probably prudent to keep them in the city so that the US knows it has to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians if it wants to bomb the heart of the Horde.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... 02839.html

That is a couple of inches of snow, forcast in advance, factoring only the cars operated by the inhabitants of the city for their normal daily commute on road infrustructure carfully formulated to serve that exact traffic pattern and minus Nazis. Now instead of a dusting of snow I want you to throw in JDAM craters, and instead of normal commute I want you to change that to desperatly fleeing from history's #1 super villians, and instead of only the cars of the inhabitants I want you to add in five million odd additional vehicles many being slow moving and road destroying heavy tracked ones, and top it off by them all trying to go in limited specific directions simultaneously the network was not designed to accomodate.

Now, given the link above and what I just said do you really want to tell me the Germans will be waltzing out of ATL in anything resembling organized spearhead formations? Or at all?

[K. A. Pital]

Truth is, nobody would escape Atlanta. 17+ million people would outnumber the citizens 20:1, there is no way they can escape the immediately set-up roadblocks. No one will 'flee' from the city. It is the surrounding cities that will become ghost towns, but not later than word of the Nazi horde spreads around. Just by appearing outside town the Germans can take its 400 000 inhabitants hostage. If they do appear around the 6 million metro area, not only do they have 6 million hostages, but also a way bigger piece of territory from the start.

There will be no JDAM holes in meaningful numbers over all surrounding terrain, at least not in the first day.

Germans will be riding out, while the 6 million people will be caught inside, and it is their luck if they stay alive by day 3, when the US understands the full scale of the Horde and starts bombing the German-inhabited towns wholesale, massacring everyone in the process.

Another scary fact is that ruins are sometimes easier to defend since they offer no clue on whether there are people. Germans have MRLS with them and can make Atlanta a steaming ruin full of dead bodies before anyone blinks. Then walk in and start making basements their playground.

[Beowulf]

And what good is flak at night? They'll need searchlights, and searchlights will get destroyed in short order. It's also going to be useless against USAF/USN tactical air, as those can be above the effective altitude. Helicopters wouldn't even necessarily have to be exposed to flak. Laser guided Hellfires can be targetted by off board sensors, like Predators. Light flak may pose a problem if they go down into the weeds... but helicopters don't have to do that. They can fly above the effective altitude of light flak. AH-64s have a service ceiling of 21kft.

If Atlanta's a bunch of ruins, it's a fairly safe assumption that most of the civilians are gone, one way or another. At which point, why not just set siege to the city. Eventually, they end up eating rats, then each other.

[K. A. Pital]

And what good is flak at night? They'll need searchlights, and searchlights will get destroyed in short order. It's also going to be useless against USAF/USN tactical air, as those can be above the effective altitude. Helicopters wouldn't even necessarily have to be exposed to flak. Laser guided Hellfires can be targetted by off board sensors, like Predators. Light flak may pose a problem if they go down into the weeds... but helicopters don't have to do that. They can fly above the effective altitude of light flak. AH-64s have a service ceiling of 21kft.

If Atlanta's a bunch of ruins, it's a fairly safe assumption that most of the civilians are gone, one way or another. At which point, why not just set siege to the city. Eventually, they end up eating rats, then each other.

Siege an army of over 17 million? Unlikely. More likely it will be the Germans laying siege to bigger towns around, then plundering them when they fall. The US does not have the manpower to stop the initial advance of such a massive army. They can attack every town with like 100:1 superiority in manpower for the first few days. That will be an Army slightly stronger than the Soviet Army in 1945 rolling over Germany (that was 11 million), but with way more equipment to shoot, blow up and roll on.

Germans have 13 000 searchlights, they can pretty much make the sky daylight at any time. And it will take non-stop sorties into their territory to seriously reduce the inventory.

US Army and USAF have too small an inventory of aircraft to efficiently attack the horde during the first hours, and maybe even for days. I mean, a few fighters and bombers _can_ realistically kill all the Germans in a short 'nough time... By nuking the Atlanta area wholesale with all inside.

Actually, considering Georgia is barely 370 km across, it is likely in three days it will be entirely occupied. The population is smaller than the invading Army, with most of the around Atlanta and depending on the width of the appearance circle, either caught or will be caught in their towns by mid-day. Florida will be cut off and everything military in it likely bombed to the ground on day one - too close, and then it will be plundered for resources, mainly food. In one week Nazis will control more than just one state, as even moving 30 km per day gets most of their forces nicely spread a bit beyond the borders of Georgia.

That is unless they get nuked or chemmed

[Patroklos]

You understand an army of 17 million makes it trivially EASY to siege them, right?

[K. A. Pital]

You understand an army of 17 million makes it trivially EASY to siege them, right?

Sieging means going on the offensive against an enemy inferior in numbers. How will you do that? Your density during the first week will be less than 1 soldier per km. Germans will have hundreds or more for each kilometer of frontline.

Unless you define siege as dying overrun, there is no way to 'siege' an army of these proportions.

[Borgholio]

You understand an army of 17 million makes it trivially EASY to siege them, right?

How so? You can't siege an army that can roll over you due to sheer numbers. Historically, sieges were a larger attacking army against defenders fortified in a castle or behind city walls. If the defenders were more numerous then they typically marched out to break the siege.

[Beowulf]

Siege at the end of the war. I'd imagine they wouldn't blow Atlanta up at the beginning of the war, as they're going to need the buildings to store stuff and live in. I don't dispute that the Wehrmacht would be tough to stop in the first couple days. However, there's no point in buildings into rubble if you actually want to live in them. Not all buildings have basements, and if you blow holes in them, they tend to not be very weatherproof. So it's really only sensible to do so when it's more valuable as fighting space than as living space. Worse, for the idea of doing it well in advance, at that point, you might as well nuke Atlanta. It'd be pretty obvious that there wouldn't be much civilians left at that point. On another note, much of the SE is stick frame. Rubble from such tends to be more concealment than actual cover.

[K. A. Pital]

I am not mentioning that the 'siege' is going to die after hit by German artillery.

The only way to win is to strike from the air, but that is not a siege. On the ground Germans win; in the air they lose, and if planes manage to blow up their munitions carriers, heavy casualties are likely. However, if Atlanta is spared and turned into a massive ammo dump, the US will have a hard choice between killing its own citizens and leaving Germans without artillery munitions, or letting them live and thereby prolonging the agony.

If it is not spared, the US can just nuke the place. That will be the end of it and the biggest genocide in modern history.

[Borgholio]

If it is not spared, the US can just nuke the place. That will be the end of it and the biggest genocide in modern history.

Would nuking an enemy army be considered genocide?

[K. A. Pital]

Well, given it is 17 million people... I think yes. Even if they are soldiers.

[Patroklos]

Sieging means going on the offensive against an enemy inferior in numbers. How will you do that? Your density during the first week will be less than 1 soldier per km. Germans will have hundreds or more for each kilometer of frontline.

Unless you define siege as dying overrun, there is no way to 'siege' an army of these proportions.

That density is exactly what makes it easy to siege them. They are a victim of the OPs spawning requirements.

How so? You can't siege an army that can roll over you due to sheer numbers. Historically, sieges were a larger attacking army against defenders fortified in a castle or behind city walls. If the defenders were more numerous then they typically marched out to break the siege.

There will be no rolling out in huge numbers. I have provided real world examples that very clearly show outside of physically walking there is no quick movement out of ALT under conditions many times more favorable than the Wehrmacht is working with here. Which means there is no way of moving their ammunitions and stores if they do decide to walk.

Will they try? After a few days once the get organized maybe. Will the succeed? Absolutely not. The best scenario is they make the hundred odd miles around ATL a war zone as the haphazardly try to stumble out of the kill zone of urban ATL. The hunred odd miles around ATL will be a random warzone before they are thrown back into ALT largely do to the hinderance of their mass. No way to manuever. No way to move resources. A density that makes dropping a bomb randomly a probabe kill. dozens of divisions worth of organization trying to marching on top of each other. Its comical.

And we are again, FOR NO REASON, assuming that US airpower is the only factor here (of if you are Stas just hand waving that too). Ft. Benning is right there. Fort Stewert is right there. Fort Brag is right there. etc.

[Borgholio]

Well, given it is 17 million people... I think yes. Even if they are soldiers.

That would be an interesting philosophical discussion. Is it genocide simply to kill a large number of people, or is it the kind of people and the motivation that matter most? In other words, nuking an enemy army vs exterminating 6 million Jews? Carpet-bombing a city to root out an entrenched enemy vs doing it to kill as many civilians as possible?

There will be no rolling out in huge numbers. I have provided real world examples that very clearly show outside of physically walking there is no quick movement out of ALT under conditions many times more favorable than the Wehrmacht is working with here. Which means there is no way of moving their ammunitions and stores if they do decide to walk.

Well nobody says it would be a QUICK rolling...but the idea of a siege is to contain the enemy in one spot. If they can leave, it's not really a siege.

[Patroklos]

Well nobody says it would be a QUICK rolling...but the idea of a siege is to contain the enemy in one spot. If they can leave, it's not really a siege.

With 20 million people on top of the aready existing population, containing them within the area of the entire state of GA would still be a siege, and the Wehrmact would still quickly starve to death. This would happen even if the US was not very effectively exacerbating the situation via attacks.