It's time to tell the House of Saud goodbye.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I don't own a home. Kinda hard of hard to purchase a home on a students income.

I know you dont own a home. I could tell by your comments. My point is not to poo poo others financial decisions until you have had a change to understand them yourself. Any decision to invest in my home has to be weighed against a whole host of other variables.

--- A little off topic. One of my happiest days, was taking that last final and knowing that I would not have to be on a students income forever. Despite all the pressures of adult life, I dont think Id trade it for the relative poverty of student life.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I don't own a home. Kinda hard of hard to purchase a home on a students income.

I know you dont own a home. I could tell by your comments. My point is not to poo poo others financial decisions until you have had a change to understand them yourself. Any decision to invest in my home has to be weighed against a whole host of other variables.

I do rent a home, so I do know the expenses that it takes to run a household. If I owned my own home, and I plan too, I will have solar / geothermal power. If you build a new home, it's only about 10% of the overall cost. And with Kyoto, there should be increased finacial incentives in place by the time I'm ready to buy.

And everyone here should thank me when I do go solar. Less demand for oil means cheaper prices for everyone.

--- A little off topic. One of my happiest days, was taking that last final and knowing that I would not have to be on a students income forever. Despite all the pressures of adult life, I dont think Id trade it for the relative poverty of student life.

Tell me about it.

Although, with student income and health problems, even if I just make it to the proverty line I'll be so used to living cheaply that it will be like I won the lotto.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I do rent a home, so I do know the expenses that it takes to run a household. If I owned my own home, and I plan too, I will have solar / geothermal power. If you build a new home, it's only about 10% of the overall cost. And with Kyoto, there should be increased finacial incentives in place by the time I'm ready to buy.

And everyone here should thank me when I do go solar. Less demand for oil means cheaper prices for everyone.

Okay, I can respect renting a home. Not as expensive as owning, but you have to deal with a budge.

10% additional can easily put a buy out of the market. ( Im speaking for SF BAY AREA )

My 800-900 sq ft condo cost 250,000. I could have paid 260,000 for it, but then I would not have been able to replace the carpets, paint, etc.

Are you from BC ? The housing prices there seemed pretty reasonable.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I do rent a home, so I do know the expenses that it takes to run a household. If I owned my own home, and I plan too, I will have solar / geothermal power. If you build a new home, it's only about 10% of the overall cost. And with Kyoto, there should be increased finacial incentives in place by the time I'm ready to buy.

And everyone here should thank me when I do go solar. Less demand for oil means cheaper prices for everyone.

Okay, I can respect renting a home. Not as expensive as owning, but you have to deal with a budge.

10% additional can easily put a buy out of the market. ( Im speaking for SF BAY AREA )

My 800-900 sq ft condo cost 250,000. I could have paid 260,000 for it, but then I would not have been able to replace the carpets, paint, etc.

Are you from BC ? The housing prices there seemed pretty reasonable.

It's 10% more up front, but reduced overall expenses.

And BC's housing prices vary, wildly. Some places they are the third most expensive in Canada. Others, like up north, way up north, you could buy a 3000 sq ft home for less than half what you paid for you condo. Of course, you can see your breath in September, in your living room, but you take the good with the bad.

[MKSheppard]

I don't own a home. Kinda hard of hard to purchase a home on a students income.

Then shut the fuck up hatfucker!

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I don't own a home. Kinda hard of hard to purchase a home on a students income.

Then shut the fuck up hatfucker!

Do you own your own fucking home? No, AFAIK, your still living at home as a dependent.

[MKSheppard]

Do you own your own fucking home? No, AFAIK, your still living at home as a dependent.

Except I am more firmly grounded in reality:

"Gee, Let's blow $10,000 on something that will give us 1/5th the power
of a $499 gasoline generator!!" is you.

Solar is good for limited applications, such as providing a SHTF power source
for a TV/Radio, etc, but for running the house, it leaves much to be desired.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Do you own your own fucking home? No, AFAIK, your still living at home as a dependent.

Except I am more firmly grounded in reality:

"Gee, Let's blow $10,000 on something that will give us 1/5th the power
of a $499 gasoline generator!!" is you.

FUEL! You are ignoring the cost of fuel.

[MKSheppard]

FUEL! You are ignoring the cost of fuel.

When you buy stuff in bulk, the Price really goes down. I'm the
kind of guy who buys stuff in bulk....like 1,000 rounds at once,
and 1,000 gallons of Diesel at once...

And why do you stress such a need to be independent of the power
grid? There's less than a 0.00367% chance of the power plant
supplying you with power going offline at the most inoopporturne
moment.

Diesel is quite sufficient for that minor power outage.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

FUEL! You are ignoring the cost of fuel.

When you buy stuff in bulk, the Price really goes down. I'm the
kind of guy who buys stuff in bulk....like 1,000 rounds at once,
and 1,000 gallons of Diesel at once...

1,000 gallons of diesel, how much did it cost to buy that fuel tank? Did you take that into account when coming up the the figure? Also, diesel storage is not a simple task. We had a huge tank of it on the farm I grew up on.

And why do you stress such a need to be independent of the power
grid? There's less than a 0.00367% chance of the power plant
supplying you with power going offline at the most inoopporturne
moment.

It's not about being independent, it's about being a net power producer. Being energy self-seficient. Like when you are finanically well to do, you don't cut all ties with your banks. You save money when you make more than you spend, and you dip into your savings when you don't If you dip too much, you go into debt. But with solar, you should deposit more than you withdraw.

Diesel is quite sufficient for that minor power outage.

This has nothing to do with the dubject at hand. There are two different purposes.

[MKSheppard]

1,000 gallons of diesel, how much did it cost to buy that fuel tank? Did you take that into account when coming up the the figure? Also, diesel storage is not a simple task. We had a huge tank of it on the farm I grew up on.

Diesel storage is quite simple compared to that of keeping GASOLINE
stable for longer than a few months. And stop stealing other people's origin
stories, Strowbridge wannabe.

It's not about being independent, it's about being a net power producer.

Wow.you're nothing but a fucking FLY next
to a 200 MW coal power plant....

[C.S.Strowbridge]

1,000 gallons of diesel, how much did it cost to buy that fuel tank? Did you take that into account when coming up the the figure? Also, diesel storage is not a simple task. We had a huge tank of it on the farm I grew up on.

Diesel storage is quite simple compared to that of keeping GASOLINE
stable for longer than a few months.

Well, duh. Compared to gasoline. Doesn't gasoline gel if it's kept too long? I know it does something. Turn to sludge?

Anywho, it still doesn't answer the question. Did you take the cost of storage into account.

And stop stealing other people's origin stories, Strowbridge wannabe.

Do you want me to tell you when that gets old, or do you not care? Cause I'm flexible either way.

It's not about being independent, it's about being a net power producer.

Wow.you're nothing but a fucking FLY next
to a 200 MW coal power plant....

I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to produce more than I use. I'm not trying to power my whole neighbouthood, or even my neighbours house.

[MKSheppard]

I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to produce more than I use. I'm not trying to power my whole neighbouthood, or even my neighbours house.

OK then, add up the power requirements for running a refridgerator,
Air conditioner, and all the other vital neccesities for modern
living inWashington, DC and then get back to me, Ted Kazcykni
Wannabe.....

You'd need to have a solar panel farm bigger than your freaking HOUSE
to do that...

UNless of course, you don't need a refrigerator and eat your food raw
and uncooked, and use all your electricity to run your computer to post
your spew on this forum.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to produce more than I use. I'm not trying to power my whole neighbouthood, or even my neighbours house.

OK then, add up the power requirements for running a refridgerator,
Air conditioner, and all the other vital neccesities for modern
living inWashington, DC and then get back to me,

Why? I know it works, I've seen it being done. And this is B.C. here, we have a LOT of rain. Although, in B.C. Solar is a perfect fit into the pre-existing power grid. When it rains you get a lot of Hydro, poor Solar. Lots of sun, poor Hydro, lots of Solar.

Ted Kazcykni Wannabe.....

Sigh. Ted Kazcykni hated technology. Solar Power is hardly a low tech idea. If anything, I'd be a technophile, but not in a sexual sort of way. .... Unless you count Cyber-porn. What? Too much information?

You'd need to have a solar panel farm bigger than your freaking HOUSE to do that...

No. No you don't. I've seen Solar Powered houses in operation. They don't need a whole lot of panels.

[MKSheppard]

No. No you don't. I've seen Solar Powered houses in operation. They don't need a whole lot of panels.

Anecedotal Evidence, STFU and provide cites to sites showing that
Solar power WORKS for housing.

BTW, Wind power is cheaper than your mythical solar power...

http://www.bergey.com/



A 1,000 watt wind turbine costs $1,980 compared to $10,000 for
a 1,000 watt solar panel installation.

[The Yosemite Bear]

*Tosses dead squirrel to a nearby Coyote*

*Shoves a new live squirrel into the carge*

"run faster you tree rats I wanna play some Homeworld!"

[C.S.Strowbridge]

No. No you don't. I've seen Solar Powered houses in operation. They don't need a whole lot of panels.

Anecedotal Evidence, STFU and provide cites to sites showing that
Solar power WORKS for housing.

Ok, let me explain what just happened.

1.) You claimed Solar Power can't work with houses.
2.) To prove you wrong, I just have to show ONE example of it working. I have done this.
3.) If you want to argue about that it won't work in ALL situations, find someone else. Cause I'm not going to argue against that. For instance, the Amazon rain forest is a bad place to put up Solar Power.
4.) If you want to argue about how much sun per year is necessary, then we have an actual debate.

BTW, Wind power is cheaper than your mythical solar power...

http://www.bergey.com/



A 1,000 watt wind turbine costs $1,980 compared to $10,000 for
a 1,000 watt solar panel installation.

Great, I have no problem with Wind Turbines. Wind and Solar both have relative benifits. And both are better than oil, which is the subject of this debate. There's also Geothermal, Non-Diversionary Hydro, etc.

http://www.energysmartsystems.com/sysgrid.htm

Also, found another place. $8000 for 1135 watt, could be less than $3000 if a new tax rebate is passed. I found another that was even cheaper, but I can't find it now.

[tharkûn]

CSS:
Okay here are some basic facts from a commericial solar panel (all stolen blatently from http://www.gotsolar.com/Catalog/Solar_P ... anels.html)

Surface area - 1.575 x .826 m
MAXIMUM power output - 148.5 W
Cost per panel - $611 (US) each (must buy in bulk).
Cost per watt - $3.79

So to get your 1,600 watts mentioned earlier you'd need to fork out $6,064 up front for the panels alone.

Now a nice consumer spends what 10 cents per kWh? So for your panels to pay for themselves you'd need to wait 7 years ... if you ran everything 24/7. THIS IS JUST FOR THE BLOODY PANELS.

In other words this is from a COMMERICIAL ENTITY trying to sell a product, so their bias is TOWARDS SOLAR.

Now what's the out the door price for a solar kWh? Niels Wolter (of the the Wisconsin Solar Use Network, a pro-solar group) estimates it at 18 cents a kilowatt hour after pro-rating the system for 40 YEARS.

http://www.energymatch.com/features/art ... ticleid=20

Now this would strike the SANE person as a bad economic invesment. It's a MYTH that solar systems break even in the long run. When you have the whole system done professionally (so as to avoid Joe Public miswiring and burning down his house) ... you will NEVER recoup your costs while you are alive. The only reason solar is remotely viable is because governments like to burn money (fine the government wants to be green ... you get vastly more for your buck just getting a more efficient refrigurator than going solar). I highly doubt your solar powered home is remotely economical without subsidy and I highly doubt it can be powered without first be extremely efficient (which means you have even higher up front costs).

Further in the same article you find that the average home uses 8500 kWh/year. A 1 kW solar system produces only about 1,400 kWh/year ... in short you run low on surface area REAL fast.

Now ALL of that is conditional on using the utility company as a giant battery. You dump your excess in and pull your shortfall out. If a substantial number of people did that, then the battery no longer works in the event of bad solar conditions.

Given the pollution generated with silicon etching I much prefer nuclear. Go CANDU. It's cheaper and greener. If I want to work against the electric metre ... I'm going to drop cash into more efficient appliances rather than trying to generate my own power. Even if you HATE nuclear it beats the crud out of the politically realistic alternatives (coal and natural gas). Coal still has problems with SO2 and natural gas well I'm not fond of price shocks.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

CSS:
Okay here are some basic facts from a commericial solar panel (all stolen blatently from http://www.gotsolar.com/Catalog/Solar_P ... anels.html)

Surface area - 1.575 x .826 m
MAXIMUM power output - 148.5 W

Is that really maximum? Cause the other site I went to had better watts / m^2 based on 5 hours of sunlight a day. Obviously, the maximum would be with direct sunlight, and that doesn't happen for very long.

Cost per panel - $611 (US) each (must buy in bulk).
Cost per watt - $3.79

So to get your 1,600 watts mentioned earlier you'd need to fork out $6,064 up front for the panels alone.

I found a place that was cheaper, but that's not a big issue.[/quote]

Now a nice consumer spends what 10 cents per kWh? So for your panels to pay for themselves you'd need to wait 7 years ... if you ran everything 24/7. THIS IS JUST FOR THE BLOODY PANELS.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the watt rating was based on 5 hours of sunlight a day. That seems to be the industry standard for watt ratings.

Anyway, I pay less per Kwh and it would take me only 8 years to pay off the materials. Less than 3 for the labour.

In other words this is from a COMMERICIAL ENTITY trying to sell a product, so their bias is TOWARDS SOLAR.

Now what's the out the door price for a solar kWh? Niels Wolter (of the the Wisconsin Solar Use Network, a pro-solar group) estimates it at 18 cents a kilowatt hour after pro-rating the system for 40 YEARS.

http://www.energymatch.com/features/art ... ticleid=20

Now this would strike the SANE person as a bad economic invesment. It's a MYTH that solar systems break even in the long run.

I don't know why you are getting the numbers you are, but power here costs less than 6 cents per watt and I'd pay off even $10,000 in less time than that. Less than 12 years, and that's assume energy costs don't increase in those 12 years.

The only reason solar is remotely viable is because governments like to burn money (fine the government wants to be green ... you get vastly more for your buck just getting a more efficient refrigurator than going solar). I highly doubt your solar powered home is remotely economical without subsidy and I highly doubt it can be powered without first be extremely efficient (which means you have even higher up front costs).

But isn't it being energy effiecient a smart thing do regardless of your power source?

Now ALL of that is conditional on using the utility company as a giant battery. You dump your excess in and pull your shortfall out. If a substantial number of people did that, then the battery no longer works in the event of bad solar conditions.

I don't think Industry can effectively used Solar, neither can apartments. So other sources are needed. These can always be used as giant batteries.

Given the pollution generated with silicon etching I much prefer nuclear. Go CANDU.

I'm all for Candu, it helps the Canadian economy. But Candu has the nasty side effect of creating weapons grade plutonium.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Given the pollution generated with silicon etching I much prefer nuclear. Go CANDU.

I'm all for Candu, it helps the Canadian economy. But Candu has the nasty side effect of creating weapons grade plutonium.

Oh It creates energy and makes something that'll kill your enemies. Big Fucking Deal! I see that as an advantage!

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Given the pollution generated with silicon etching I much prefer nuclear. Go CANDU.

I'm all for Candu, it helps the Canadian economy. But Candu has the nasty side effect of creating weapons grade plutonium.

Oh It creates energy and makes something that'll kill your enemies. Big Fucking Deal! I see that as an advantage!

You have no idea who Canada has sold these things to.