SURPRISE! They want Pump Action Guns Banned!!!

[Sea Skimmer]

Hey, guys, wanna do something fun? Ask a pro-control advocate to define "assault weapon". Ten bucks says he can't do it!

If you find a really rabid one, chances are it ill be something like "any weapon which projects a bullet over a range greater then 10 inches"

The less ones will likley say any gun which can be used offensivly..

[MKSheppard]

Heavens!!! Oh the humanity!!! I can't own an M-16!! Its not like SOLDIERS are really the only ones that should be using them anyway.

We should start an NFA dealer telethon...top help save the poor starving NFA members that are going out of business because they can't sell military weapons to people who aren't in the millitary....

Sigh.

Stravo, you don't understand anything about the NFA system.

The NFA system was set up in 1934, and it is fully known as the
"National Firearms Act", and it was this nation's FIRST gun control
law, concerning full-auto weapons, short barrelled rifles (aka sawn
off shotguns).

http://hcl.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/dye/docs/firearms.htm

It is a PAIN IN THE FUCKING ASS to become a NFA collector. To even
simply buy a simple NFA firearm, you have to submit so many forms
to the government, and you can be rejected at any point.

Oh yeah, you also pay a $200 dollar tax (which was insanely high in
1934 - in effect, a ban back then) per item.

And then you have to pay inflated prices per item.

The reason why it is so fucking expensive to buy NFA weapons, is because
in 1986, a fucking New Jersey Congressman, where it's illegal to own NFA
articles, slipped a rider into a gun rights bill that removed the background
check for buying AMMUNITION. The rider that the no-good son-of-a-bitch
slipped in BANNED the private sale of NFA weapons manufactured after
1986.

Government can still get NFA weapons made after 1986....which is why
it is so cheap for them....

So if you want to own a H&K G-36, you're out of luck, since it was made
after 1986, and even a semi-auto version is banned, thanks to
Bush I's executive order on "sporting rifle importation", along with
the 1994 Brady Bill.

But......the Brady Bill automatically sunsets in 2004......But I have no
doubt Bush II will sign ANY sort of bill sent to him concerning a new,
more comprehensive ban that doesn't sunset.

And tell your garbage to my Uncle, who regularly goes down to Knob
Creek with his friends....man, one time he was going to a firing range
in Arkansas with 2 of his friends in a U-Haul truck, and at the weigh
station, the guys there said:

"Hey, this guy's truck is too heavy for 'furniture'."

And so they opened up the back.

Man, I wish I had been there to see the cop's face when he saw
row after row of pistol cases packed waist high and five deep.

And when he got past the pistol cases and saw THREE Browning
Machine Guns...belt fed......

and after the MGs, TWO General Electric Mini-Guns......out of only
12 transferrable ones in the country......

My uncle and his friends were tied up for several hours while the
cops verified their paperwork. Eventually, the cops let them go
on their way to Arkansas, but I know the cops WANTED one single
fucking line of the forms for those weapons to be incorrect, so
they could arrest my Uncle, and his two friends for the simple
act of owning "evil" guns.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Hey, I just thought of something. Under our current gun laws, isn't it easier to purchase a Soviet PTRD anti-tank rifle than to buy a shotgun with a pistol grip?

[Stravo]

Man, I wish I had been there to see the cop's face when he saw
row after row of pistol cases packed waist high and five deep.

And when he got past the pistol cases and saw THREE Browning
Machine Guns...belt fed......

and after the MGs, TWO General Electric Mini-Guns......out of only
12 transferrable ones in the country......

And this is sporting how.....

I readily admit I know next to nothing about guns, never fired one, never even held one...never really felt a need to. But when I see stories like this I have to wonder, why? Why carry around enough firepower to topple a small Caribean dictatorship?

[Admiral Valdemar]

I see it now.

Bush and Congress are all against the American people. As soon as they have "disarmed" everyone they will call in their army servicemen who will not question the actions imposed on them such as "take this town and rape the women" or "prepare to fire on civilians who go against the LAW!".

Once done, these criminal masterminds called politicians will be one step towards taking over the world.

But first they have to make sure everyone in America is unable to defend themselves with "sporting" weapons that small armies may use.

Yes, the paranoia of modern Americans seems almost justified.

[Admiral Piett]

I am happy to live in a country where before buying a pistol you have to survive to a bureaucratic procedure that would drive Kafka insane.Although shooting at the target with an heavy machine gun must be funny(and expensive).

[Admiral Piett]

What is a "General electric mini-gun"?A grenade launcher? A rocket launcher? A recoiless gun? A mortar?

[Mr Bean]

My uncle and his friends were tied up for several hours while the
cops verified their paperwork. Eventually, the cops let them go
on their way to Arkansas, but I know the cops WANTED one single
fucking line of the forms for those weapons to be incorrect, so
they could arrest my Uncle, and his two friends for the simple
act of owning "evil" guns.

Acutal I don't think it was because of the *Evil guns more like the clause in Arkansa law that states confiscated property after a certian amount of time becomes property of the Station House or is sold at auction
(Bet he just wanted to show the other cops up at the next Police Gathering)Oyh! Thats not a gun,, THIS is a Gun, Oh yeah? Thats not a gun THIS is a Gun!, Thats not a gun thats a chain-gun! Same thing...

[Sea Skimmer]

What is a "General electric mini-gun"?A grenade launcher? A rocket launcher? A recoiless gun? A mortar?

It is a six barreled Gatling gun. GE built one that fired 7.62mm rounds, it was so much smaller then any other Gatling gun in service that it got called a mini gun, even though the thing is quite huge.
It gets used mostly on helicopters, since they can haul around enough ammo to make use of the high rate of fire and also have a nned for ultra high volumes of suppression fire.

GE also made a few protypes of a 5.56mm mini gun, the XM-214, but it was never adapted for anything but movies, Schwarzenegger uses it in Terminator 2, and its also used in Predator. The US Army Special forces looked into it, but found that it was so heavy that you quite litterly needed Schwarzenegger to lift and carry it with ammunition and the power supply.

The XM-214 is what you see on most "General Electric, we bring good things to life" shirts.

[Solid Snake]

If everyone is armed even dictator's supporters will be armed and your NRA style freedom fighters will not have an easier time in a state where the population is armed than in a state where it is not.

Ok, Mr. European Union, do you live in America? I do, and i see this shit all the time. When someone gets gunned down, the do-gooders start crying and angriliy demand disarment. Its not a dictator, i never said anything of the sort. Now, lets go back in time a while shall we? If England outlawed firearms in the American Colonies in the first place, way before the Revolution, the pissed-off colonists would have fought the mighty British Army with rocks and pitchforks, giving them no chance at all. Now, i admit that, mere laws wouldnt have stopped some smithies from making guns, but its the same shit today.
I am not a member of the NRA, btw....

[Crossover_Maniac]

But wait... I thought they only objected to deadly bullet spraying "assault weapons" and easily concealed "junk handguns"???

Reasonable restrictions my ass!

Wake up people!

Their ultimate goal is Complete disarmament of the civilian population!

http://www.freep.com/voices/columnists/ ... 020808.htm

LOCAL COMMENT: Why wait to tackle gun violence?
Germany's timely action should serve as example for America

August 8, 2002
BY DONNA DEES-THOMASES AND CAROLYNNE JARVIS

So far this year, 10 Detroit-area children were killed by guns. How can we, as a community and a state, stop this rising tide of gun violence?
Other communities that have stood at the dangerous intersection of young people and guns provide a good lesson. The similarities between school shootings in Littleton, Colo., and Erfurt, Germany, are striking -- troubled kids, access to guns and unbearable tragedy. Even more striking: the difference between the two countries' responses.

In Littleton, two teenagers gunned down 13 schoolmates and teachers before killing themselves. The law prohibited the underage Columbine High School killers from owning their private arsenal, including a semiautomatic weapon. But the consistent failure of state legislatures or the federal government to implement strong enforcement mechanisms - - like universal background checks, the licensing of gun owners and firearm registration -- made it easy for them to get their guns. All it took was a friend to pick up the murder weapons at a local gun show -- a friend who later testified that she never would have bought the guns if she had been subject to a background check.

In the Erfurt case, Germany's gun laws were also insufficient to keep firearms out of the hands of a disturbed youth. Despite a history of troubles at school, a 17-year-old was legally authorized to own the 9mm handgun and pump- action rifle that he used to kill 17 people, including students, teachers, a policeman and himself. He obtained a German firearms license with relative ease -- no psychological examination required.

But while nothing has happened three years after the Columbine High killings, seven weeks after the Erfurt shooting, the German parliament passed legislation that tightens the rules on gun ownership. The new laws don't preclude private ownership of guns, they just include common-sense measures: raising the age of ownership for firearms from 18 to 21; requiring that people under 25 seeking to purchase a gun pass a psychological examination; and banning pump-action guns.

This measured response to a horrifying crime is exactly what the United States failed to do in Columbine's wake. Yes, early on, the U.S. Senate passed legislation that would close the infamous gun-show loophole and require background checks for all gun sales at these events. But that modest effort withered in the House. More recently, Senate leaders, including John McCain, R-Ariz., have introduced new legislation to close the loophole, but it's likely that these bills will suffer the same fate.

Meanwhile, gun shows have become a reliable source of weapons used in crime and terrorism. In Michigan, Ali Boumelhem, linked to the terrorist organization Hezbollah, was convicted Sept. 10 of conspiring to smuggle guns and ammunition to Lebanon. Federal agents testified they saw him buying weapons at three gun shows.

At the state level, stronger gun legislation is caught in a tug-of-war between widespread public support and gun industry opposition. While states such as California and Illinois have imposed tougher gun laws and defeated efforts to loosen gun regulation, the majority have done little. Even Colorado, home to the Columbine tragedy, failed to act -- until outraged voters tightened gun-show regulations by referendum.

Some Michigan legislators, spurred by a well-funded gun industry lobby, plan to introduce legislation in the lame- duck session after the November elections that would allow concealed weapons in theaters, sports arenas and other public venues where they are currently banned. At the same time, they are blocking the introduction of legislation that would enable prosecution of illegal gun traffickers by mandating the tracing of all crime guns to identify when and where they crossed from the legal to the illegal market.

The daily litany of gun violence kills nearly 30,000 Americans, including 1,200 Michigan citizens, each year and seriously injure at least three times that many. The incredible ease with which guns are available helped give the United States the highest rate of gun violence in any developed country in the world. Our attitude towards guns and gun violence is shockingly casual. And as a nation, we are continuing to pay the price.

Nearly 90 Americans will die in our neighborhoods from gun violence, including suicides, today. And tomorrow, and the day after that.
If we want to bring a stop to the daily drumbeat of gun violence, we must learn from the quick German response.

I know lots of people say this is a 'slippery slope' argument, but the gun control crowd's stragety is to ban guns one at a time. Call hunting rifles 'sniper rifles', call pistols '#1 tool of criminals', call automatic and semi-automatic weapons 'assault rifles' and always claim that you're for 'reasonable' gun control. Quote statistics about 13 child dying in gun accidents everyday even though most of these are homocides involving an emotionally stroffed teen (who could easily take a few sips of bleach and end their lives) or gangbangers killing each other. Yes, it is a slippery slope, because it's the gun control nazis stragety.

[Crossover_Maniac]

What is a "General electric mini-gun"?A grenade launcher? A rocket launcher? A recoiless gun? A mortar?

If it's from General Electric, probably a railgun.

[Mr Bean]

As the NRA is kind to point out less people die to gun's each day than Car accidents, However if a three year old gets into a car takes of the break and rolls down a hill and crashes into somthing killing somone or himself, no-one says anything

Give a three year old a loaded gun and he shoots somone and its national news

Thus the world we live in.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

A pro-control advocate would probably think that an assault weapon would be a salt shaker. Come on, it has Assalt!

Anyway, dictatorships usually put gun control laws in place so the public can't arm themselves to overthrow the dictator. did it. And besides, since England banned guns, crime has skyrocketed. What do they do? They're planning on putting even stricter restrictions into place! And one more thing: If the reality-challenged students behind Columbine couldn't get a gun, they'd probably make some and blow the school up.

That's my two cents on this issue.

[Admiral Piett]

[quote="Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi"]A pro-control advocate would probably think that an assault weapon would be a salt shaker. Come on, it has Assalt!

Anyway, dictatorships usually put gun control laws in place so the public can't arm themselves to overthrow the dictator.

True.But do not worry this is not the main support of dictatorships.In Italy,in the early twenties when fascist squads stormed the country sometimes occurred that an individual attempted to defend himself with guns.In that case the fascists gathered enough forces,typically with a 100 to 1 ratio and then slaughtered who opposed them.If the opposers were all armed and organized then a civil war would have taken place,like in Spain and we know like it ended.So an armed population is not a great safeguard.


did it. And besides, since England banned guns, crime has skyrocketed.

I have seen no proof of an adequate cause-effect link.Socioeconomic context?.Besides I doubt that the 19th century UK was so crimeless as it is described in that analysis.London during the Victorian age could not be described exactly as a no crime zone.I would like to know what sources used that scholar.I want to hope that he is not simply on the NRA payroll.


What do they do? They're planning on putting even stricter restrictions into place! And one more thing: If the reality-challenged students behind Columbine couldn't get a gun, they'd probably make some and blow the school up.

[Doomriser]

It's a shame I live in the people's dictatorship of Canada, where guns are highly regulated.

Since this regulation was enacted, crime has skyrocketed and I'm afraid to go out onto the street in fear of being randomly shot. Oh wait, that was the mirror universe Canada.

[Mr Bean]

Piett Realy check those tags before you post, or did you hit submit by accident and your furiously correcting it right now?

[Skelron]

You know it's truly amasing, I live in the UK, in a depressed town, Middlesbrough, it can be rough at night, but I've never feared that someone may pull a gun on me. My Uni city does have a small area where Crime has got so bad the Cops have to go armed sometimes, I don't fear on a night out some luny pulling a Gun on me. I might fear a loony with a glass bottle but this rampant Gun Crime I've never seen or heard any of my friends claim to have seen it. So Where is it? Please, if crime is rising t's nothing to do with the banning of guns and everything to do with Poverty and desperation. Yes a criminal will go out and get a gun if they really want to, the thing is that we still don't have anywhere even approaching the Gun Problems that you have on the streets of America, and you know why, because it's hard to get the guns, they have to be smuggled through Customs.

As for an armed country preventing a dictator don't make me laugh! Oh I know I have a Machine Gun and so do all my neighbours thats it we are safe from those evil politicians. Dictatorships work by getting neighbour turned against neighbour, In Germany people turned against others because of a row they may have had years ago, left to fester this grivance was allowed out when they saw a chance to get the Government to step in and take their neighbour away.

Besides all that would do you Jack if you set up in rebellion the weapon's avaible to you are nothing compared to the governments avible weapons, if a dictatorship could turn the Real Army against you all the stupid little militias in the whole of America wouldn't stop em. (And half of them wold probably join up, to go kick out whatever threat the dictatorship claimed to be opposing anyway) You see modern warfare isn't anything like your War of Independence and the militias are a joke, a bunch of crazy idiots who think they are important. Losers who want to blame the world for their own self made problems.

[Subnormal]

Ok here we go:

A few teens and children blow people and themselves away: Effect: Guns get restricted, taken away. Effect: A few teens use knives, bats, poles to kill people instead of weapons. Effect: knives, bats, and poles become thin plastic. Effect: Martha Stewart becomes a bitch again, Steak couldn't be eaten, Little Leaguers won't be able to hit a homerun, also Teens use House hold chemicals and Fertilizer to make bombs. Effect: No more Lysol number of persons effected by colds and viruses rise, farmers grow 2 feet tall corn and micro tomatos, few teens use fists and feet to kill, mame or wound people. Effect: Arms and hands placed in hand cuffs or bound. Effect Can't Masturbate, Ah damn I don't know, maybe we will all jump in a few padded rooms and run in circles, living stupid and idiotic lives. You can kill someone a million different ways with a million different objects, it just so happens that guns are the most popular, but if removed alternatives will arrise that may or will be a lot worse than having a gun.

Our civil liberties are at stake, if they want to take guns and other weapons what will stop them from taking other civil liberties, in the constitution it states that if the population feels it is being oppressed or the government becomes to corrupt it is the right of the people to rise up and Alter or Abolish it. I don't know about you but how the hell can that happen if the government has fire arms and all we can do is just throw stones at them. To many youthes in this country are lost, to many mentally unstable people that can't be stopped even if the government tried. Such is the case with Airplanes too, they were used to kill thousands of people and yet noone is banning them or wanting to reduce the amount of fuel a plane can have or how far a flight is legally allowed to go.

[buzz_knox]

Stravo, the vast majority of respectable legal scholarship into this field shows that the 2nd Amendment recognizes an individual right to bear arms. The Supreme Court has actually cited the 2nd Amendment as an example of an individual right. Unfortunately, this recitation was in dicta.

[Headshots_Sold_Here]

To start: I don't own a gun, unless you count air rifles
Ok, say they totally outlaw guns. People use crossbows with poisin arrows and shit to kill. Where do you draw the line? air rifles? airsoft guns? highly modified nerf guns firing darts with pins in them???
A seriuos criminal can still get an AK or something easily. If that 2-bit criminal thinks the guy in a wheelchair he is gonna mug has a nice, cozy 50AE deagle in his bag, he's gonna think twice. Look at the swiss: must own and be able to use a rifle BY law, for men. Those muggers or robbers or whatever know the victim has an uzi or mac 10 or HK MP-7 or some other auto weapon and they won't attack.

[John]

If you think the cops are out-gunned, then the cops need better weapons. I have no basic problem with an ordinary person owning an anti-aircraft missile, or an anti-tank misssile, etc. If they commit a crime with those weapons, then they should answer for those (death sentance, anyone?) crimes.

[Admiral Piett]

To start: I don't own a gun, unless you count air rifles
Ok, say they totally outlaw guns. People use crossbows with poisin arrows and shit to kill. Where do you draw the line? air rifles? airsoft guns? highly modified nerf guns firing darts with pins in them???
A seriuos criminal can still get an AK or something easily. If that 2-bit criminal thinks the guy in a wheelchair he is gonna mug has a nice, cozy 50AE deagle in his bag, he's gonna think twice. Look at the swiss: must own and be able to use a rifle BY law, for men. Those muggers or robbers or whatever know the victim has an uzi or mac 10 or HK MP-7 or some other auto weapon and they won't attack.

According to your argument. in Switzerland there should not be any crime at all,sice everyone has an assault rifle.
And always according to your "Where do you draw the line?" argument people should be allowed to keep any weapons,included a SAM battery if they can afford it,which is a disturbing thought.
The average criminal may be deterred in some cases.In others he may simple decide to shoot his victim at the first suspect move.It is probably nearly impossible to establish what factor outweights the other.

[Mr Bean]

According to your argument. in Switzerland there should not be any crime at all,sice everyone has an assault rifle.

The Swiss have the lowest crime-rate of Europe and nearly of the World except for those tiny small 100 person island Nations and in 2000 over 50% of Crime was commited by FORIGNERS
IE people not from Switzerland

If that happend in America one year what would Ash-croft and Co say about that?

[aerius]

They can ban every single weapon earth, guns, knives, bats, hammers, whatever, but in the end it won't make a difference at all. Criminals don't follow the law, they will still have weapons, and they will still go around using them on citizens. OK, so suppose you could somehow confiscate every weapon, then what? Will people magically stop getting robbed and killed? It ain't gonna happen, getting rid of weapons ain't gonna get rid of crime. The perps will just improvise other weapons from everyday objects, and people will continue to be robbed, beaten, and killed as usual. A hammer, a shovel, a length of pipe, a screwdriver, and millions of other everyday things can easily become lethal weapons in the hands of a crook. All weapons bans do is disarm the citizen, and make him into an easier target for crime.