Silly Protester, You Go Squish Now!

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 07:59am

Darth Wong wrote:She was probably proceeding under the false assumption that the people running this operation respect the value of human life and would not deliberately run somebody over. In America, that probably would have worked. Protests of that sort normally result in an impasse as drivers refuse to run people over and negotiators are called in.

Unfortunately for her, the rules are somewhat different in the occupied territories of Israel.

Given the fact that those bulldozers are big suckers with not a lot of visibility and hardly stop a dime it's possible it was a mistake. It's not clear exactly how it is she got hit and there are indications that it was accidental. Even the Israelis are unlikely to go out and flatten protestors with a bulldozer.

Montcalm wrote:I guess she never really watched the news cause she would have noticed that the Israeli can kill anyone,shooting unarmed kids Palestinians throwing rocks get shot,so was she thinking the bulldozer driver would have stopped for her

They don't go out and kill kids deliberately. They know it's bad PR if nothing else. The kids are part of rock throwing mobs that have gone after soldiers and managed to provoke them into firing. Equally questionable is the morality of people that'd send kids out as part of group they know will come under fire.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-17 08:04am

must be said that a lot of recruits that have to go on the outer edges of the cities to partol will often try and avoid any service or actually shoot at anything if it really hits their nerves. I can't recall it entirely, but some documentary a few months ago mentioned how many young men simply will not do service in the IDF for fear of having to kill civilians threatening them.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-17 08:45am

Stormbringer wrote:Given the fact that those bulldozers are big suckers with not a lot of visibility and hardly stop a dime it's possible it was a mistake. It's not clear exactly how it is she got hit and there are indications that it was accidental. Even the Israelis are unlikely to go out and flatten protestors with a bulldozer.

Ah, one of the great constants in life: people who reflexively make excuses for Israelis. You did know that they FIRED WEAPONS on other people at the scene, right? And that people are routinely killed in their homes by these dozers, with no change whatsoever in Israeli procedures because they still don't bother to check for occupancy before flattening the house?

They don't go out and kill kids deliberately. They know it's bad PR if nothing else.

Not when there's legions of excuse-makers out there. I once saw a CBC video of a dead man and his little daughter, shot to death at point-blank range in their car. One of those things that mysteriously doesn't make it onto CNN.

The kids are part of rock throwing mobs that have gone after soldiers and managed to provoke them into firing. Equally questionable is the morality of people that'd send kids out as part of group they know will come under fire.

I like the way this generalization is ALWAYS trotted out. Without getting into the morality of Israel vs Palestine in general, it's simply a lie that the IDF exercises disgression in its treatment of people in the occupied territories, and the fact that they gunned down two of their own settlers and now killed a US settler is pretty obvious proof of this ... unless, of course, you're a knee-jerk Israeli excuse-maker.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-17 09:56am

In the end, this shit happens and it's been happening for a long time and I see no reason for it to stop anytime soon.

As long as Israel is the little brother of the US they will be untouchable over there and this sort of thing will continue.

I have all but given up for that region now, both parties need a firm smackdown of reality.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 10:05am

Ah, one of the great constants in life: people who reflexively make excuses for Israelis. You did know that they FIRED WEAPONS on other people at the scene, right? And that people are routinely killed in their homes by these dozers, with no change whatsoever in Israeli procedures because they still don't bother to check for occupancy before flattening the house?

I'm not saying that the IDF is a bunch of wonderful guys, I'm just saying it sounds like she simply got caught in a accident rather than a deliberate action.

I had heard about them firing on people. Given that people had been shooting at them from those same buildings earlier I'm not suprised they got trigger happy.

I know damn well that the IDF isn't so friendly. They've killed people needlessly and I do think they need to answer for that. But indications are this is an accident.

Not when there's legions of excuse-makers out there. I once saw a CBC video of a dead man and his little daughter, shot to death at point-blank range in their car. One of those things that mysteriously doesn't make it onto CNN.

What were the circumstances exactly? Were they driving to the grocery store or running a checkpoint or driving around in combat zone?

I'm not saying the IDF isn't trigger happy, god knows they are. I've said so elsewhere that they need to be more careful. But then again they are human, living under seige their whole lives isn't going to make them calm and collected.

I like the way this generalization is ALWAYS trotted out. Without getting into the morality of Israel vs Palestine in general, it's simply a lie that the IDF exercises disgression in its treatment of people in the occupied territories, and the fact that they gunned down two of their own settlers and now killed a US settler is pretty obvious proof of this ... unless, of course, you're a knee-jerk Israeli excuse-maker.

Mike where did I say that the IDF are angels? They're too willing to use lethal force when they don't need to and they're far to callus to the loss of innocent Palenstinian lives.

But the fact also remains that the Palestinians have gotten very good at goading the IDF soldiers into firing and at forcing Israel to take drastic actions. They also are completely willing to put their own children into the line of fire so I have a lot less sympathy for them on that score.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-17 12:11pm

There have been reports saying that the woman was in clear visibility of the driver, and it's not inconsistent with past behavior on the part of the IDF to simply run over people who are in their way. I don't see what's so hard to believe about these assholes being assholes.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-17 12:17pm

Durandal wrote:There have been reports saying that the woman was in clear visibility of the driver, and it's not inconsistent with past behavior on the part of the IDF to simply run over people who are in their way. I don't see what's so hard to believe about these assholes being assholes.

She also had a megaphone and was shouting at the driver.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-17 12:19pm

Darth Wong wrote:
They don't go out and kill kids deliberately. They know it's bad PR if nothing else.
Not when there's legions of excuse-makers out there. I once saw a CBC video of a dead man and his little daughter, shot to death at point-blank range in their car. One of those things that mysteriously doesn't make it onto CNN.

I saw a movie on CBC of a Merkava firing it's 120mm gun into a crowd of people watching firefighters putting out a blaze. A crowd that included many children.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 12:25pm

Durandal wrote:There have been reports saying that the woman was in clear visibility of the driver, and it's not inconsistent with past behavior on the part of the IDF to simply run over people who are in their way. I don't see what's so hard to believe about these assholes being assholes.

And the link that Mike orginally posted said she fell down. He might not have seen her and thought instead she got out of the way.

If nothing else I doubt the IDF run down a US citizen in cold blood.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-17 12:26pm

Ted wrote:
Durandal wrote:There have been reports saying that the woman was in clear visibility of the driver, and it's not inconsistent with past behavior on the part of the IDF to simply run over people who are in their way. I don't see what's so hard to believe about these assholes being assholes.
She also had a megaphone and was shouting at the driver.

OK she was in plain view she had a megaphone,so why the fucking hell do they call it an accident when its a clear case of MURDER.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 12:28pm

Montcalm wrote:
Ted wrote:
Durandal wrote:There have been reports saying that the woman was in clear visibility of the driver, and it's not inconsistent with past behavior on the part of the IDF to simply run over people who are in their way. I don't see what's so hard to believe about these assholes being assholes.
She also had a megaphone and was shouting at the driver.
OK she was in plain view she had a megaphone,so why the fucking hell do they call it an accident when its a clear case of MURDER.

Several have claimed she fell before he actually hit her. As for the megaphone, do you realize how loud those suckers can be?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-17 12:31pm

Maybe we should show a new "funding terrorism" ad. This one will start with a video like Ted or Mike mentioned, of the IDF ruthlessly gunning down crowds with children in them, running over protesters or gunning down a father and his child.

Then it cuts to a slide show of all the presidents of the United States that have been in office while the Israeli Defense Budget has been in place. Then there's a black screen with white text.

"If you pay your taxes, you're helping terrorism."

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 12:36pm

Durandal wrote:Maybe we should show a new "funding terrorism" ad. This one will start with a video like Ted or Mike mentioned, of the IDF ruthlessly gunning down crowds with children in them, running over protesters or gunning down a father and his child.

Then it cuts to a slide show of all the presidents of the United States that have been in office while the Israeli Defense Budget has been in place. Then there's a black screen with white text.

"If you pay your taxes, you're helping terrorism."

But of course the Palentinians are free to blow up Israelis?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-17 12:51pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Durandal wrote:Maybe we should show a new "funding terrorism" ad. This one will start with a video like Ted or Mike mentioned, of the IDF ruthlessly gunning down crowds with children in them, running over protesters or gunning down a father and his child.

Then it cuts to a slide show of all the presidents of the United States that have been in office while the Israeli Defense Budget has been in place. Then there's a black screen with white text.

"If you pay your taxes, you're helping terrorism."
But of course the Palentinians are free to blow up Israelis?

Red herring. We're not giving the Palestinians billions of dollars annually in military equipment and aid.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 12:53pm

Damned posting error

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 12:54pm

Durandal wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:But of course the Palentinians are free to blow up Israelis?
Red herring. We're not giving the Palestinians billions of dollars annually in military equipment and aid.

That's true, we don't give them money for good reason. They're terrorists

Israel has killed innocent but in war accidents happen. Especially mess urban war. And you claim it's terrorism. Isreali is no wide eyed innocent but frankly they aren't terrorists.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-03-17 01:05pm

Well, AP wire services ran a picture of the bulldozer and location. If it is, indeed, the exact same machine then it looks to me like the driver would have been able to see her. It was not one of the oversize, fully armor-plated 'dozers that are frequently used for hot-zone demolitions.

It seems to me that the guy saw her and just didn't care-- one more idiot protestor making a serious miscalculation. The guy should be prosecuted for this action.

As for the morality of the events, there-- remember that the IDF did not just wake up one morning with a bug in their ass and decided to go bulldoze houses. The housing block was being used for terrorist purposes. Hamas and Hezbollah send rockets into the suburbs of Sderot, a civilian community in range of the Gaza Strip. Sderot is not a military base by any means.

As for the IDF firing into a crowd of kids... a few things to remember: the parents really do send their children out to harass the soldiers. When asked by reporters about that, and if their children should die, the answer is usually along the lines of "if it is the Will of Allah". These kids (many teens) use slings, which can be powerful and even kill, and there are frequently Molotov cocktails and gunmen in the crowd as well, further provoking action and using the children as human shields.

Where's the outrage for that?

The fact that the families of "martyrs" also get fat checks, some up to $25,000.00, from supporters, also adds a spin to this.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 01:13pm

Coyote wrote:Well, AP wire services ran a picture of the bulldozer and location. If it is, indeed, the exact same machine then it looks to me like the driver would have been able to see her. It was not one of the oversize, fully armor-plated 'dozers that are frequently used for hot-zone demolitions.

It seems to me that the guy saw her and just didn't care-- one more idiot protestor making a serious miscalculation. The guy should be prosecuted for this action.

If that's the case, then prosecute the fucker and have a long talk with Israel. Deliberate murder is unacceptable.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-03-17 01:13pm

Durandal wrote: We're not giving the Palestinians billions of dollars annually in military equipment and aid.

But we have given millions, and the EU has given hundreds of millions, most of which ended up in bank accounts under the name "Y. Arafat". No libraries, schools, buses or clinics-- but a few limousines, private jets, and soirees in Paris. The leadership is keeping the boot on their own people to drive them to desperation. A high Palestinian body count keeps the sympathy and money flowing in from outside suppliers.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-17 01:15pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:But of course the Palentinians are free to blow up Israelis?
Red herring. We're not giving the Palestinians billions of dollars annually in military equipment and aid.
That's true, we don't give them money for good reason. They're terrorists

And what would you call people who kill civilians for being in their way? Maybe not terrorists, but certainly no better.

Israel has killed innocent but in war accidents happen. Especially mess urban war. And you claim it's terrorism. Isreali is no wide eyed innocent but frankly they aren't terrorists.

They're every bit as bad. They just happen to have money. If we suddenly gave that billions of dollars in aid to the Palestinians, the situation would be exactly the same as it is today.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 01:22pm

Durandal wrote:And what would you call people who kill civilians for being in their way? Maybe not terrorists, but certainly no better.

One guy does not a policy make. And yes, I'm aware of plenty of incidents where Israelis have killed the innocent. It's bad but it's not suprising and is understandable when they've been under seige since the country was created and it's only made worse by the fact that you can't tell an innocent from a terrorist.

Durandal wrote:They're every bit as bad. They just happen to have money. If we suddenly gave that billions of dollars in aid to the Palestinians, the situation would be exactly the same as it is today.

They aren't as bad. If they deliberately target civilians like the Palestinians, then there wouldn't be a Palestinian left alive. There have been regrettable incidents and even war crimes but in the balance Israel is still by far the lesser evil.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-03-17 01:34pm

There's a good way to determine who is the terrorist and who is not. Look at the targets. The Palestinians specifically and deliberately target civilians. You cannot detonate a bomb in a supermarket and say "golly gee whiz, we thought it was a military base".

The Israeli government sends laser-guided bombs after specific terrorists; guys who hide among their own families and other innocents. These innocents are unfortunate but unintended. Many of them are pleased at the prospect of providing meat armor for their "heroic" brethren anyway.

I still find it odd that while Israel is punished for the innocent deaths they cause, there is not even the tiniest breath of criticism for the cynical use of civilians as human shields by the Palestinians. Many innocent Palestinians would be alive today were it not for that.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-03-17 01:39pm

Coyote wrote:I still find it odd that while Israel is punished for the innocent deaths they cause, there is not even the tiniest breath of criticism for the cynical use of civilians as human shields by the Palestinians. Many innocent Palestinians would be alive today were it not for that.

The IDF aren't angels but thats the truth. The Palenstinians have so trumped up their case that they forget that they're killing nothing but Israeli civilians and cynically using their own people as weapons, sheilds, and tools. It's appalling.

But then again that's the fundamental problem with the situation.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-17 04:54pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Durandal wrote:And what would you call people who kill civilians for being in their way? Maybe not terrorists, but certainly no better.
One guy does not a policy make. And yes, I'm aware of plenty of incidents where Israelis have killed the innocent. It's bad but it's not suprising and is understandable when they've been under seige since the country was created and it's only made worse by the fact that you can't tell an innocent from a terrorist.

And you therefore have a license to bulldoze anyone you please?

They're every bit as bad. They just happen to have money. If we suddenly gave that billions of dollars in aid to the Palestinians, the situation would be exactly the same as it is today.
They aren't as bad. If they deliberately target civilians like the Palestinians, then there wouldn't be a Palestinian left alive. There have been regrettable incidents and even war crimes but in the balance Israel is still by far the lesser evil.

So the Israelis come in, kick the Palestinians out, and backed with the support of the rest of the world, establish their "Jewish homeland," and then we're supposed to sympathize with them when the people they forcibly kicked out and now relegate to the status of second-class citizens in "occupied territories" resort to extreme methods to get their land back?

I'm not saying that the Israelis deserve suicide bombings, but the Palestinians certainly didn't deserve to just be shoved out of the way so that the Jews could have a home nation. Both sides are at least as bad as each other, and they almost deserve each other.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-17 05:11pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Coyote wrote:Well, AP wire services ran a picture of the bulldozer and location. If it is, indeed, the exact same machine then it looks to me like the driver would have been able to see her. It was not one of the oversize, fully armor-plated 'dozers that are frequently used for hot-zone demolitions.

It seems to me that the guy saw her and just didn't care-- one more idiot protestor making a serious miscalculation. The guy should be prosecuted for this action.
If that's the case, then prosecute the fucker and have a long talk with Israel. Deliberate murder is unacceptable.

I saw that picture too; if the driver didn't see her, he was blind. She was wearing bright orange too. And not only that, but the other protesters were screaming and shouting and even USING A FUCKING MEGAPHONE to tell the driver that there was somebody in front of him, and he ignored them to keep driving. And get this: he ran her over TWICE! He drove right over her and then put it in reverse and backed up over her again.