Help the Native Americans repel the European invasion (RAR)

[orbitingpluto]

In any case, I think that some people are missing the point here. They're talking about setting themselves up as a conqueror or prophet. Well, in that case, aren't the natives still being conquered by an outsider? Maybe one more benevolent and advanced than the historical European conquerers often were, but still conquered. The fact that most of our board is probably European or of European descent just drives home the irony. You're not talking about opposing the imperialist conquest of the Americas. You're just saying "when I'm the conquerer, I'll get it right".

Sure, my grandparents may have relocated from Eastern Europe near the turn of the century(1900 in other words)and I speak English, but I was born in America. If I'm going to pick a side between the humans who were born in what are now the Americas and some conquistadors born in Spain, I pick... both actually. While not getting massive amounts of gold or other booty will be a net loss for the conquistadors, finding cultures with similar levels of technology would give them a trading partner on par or better than the China that Columbus set out to find, which is good for people on both sides of the Atlantic. Which is the best I can hope for, a peaceful meeting of people resulting in exchanges that hurt neither.

Setting myself up as a ruler of men wouldn't help me out here; the best analogue to what I would like to become is a bit of a Gandalf figure, an adviser and friend to all good people, but not the holder of the reins of power, nor stationary. Hence why I wanted to know about walking and growing the beard.

I still have yet to figure out where I'd start though; the Americas are huge, and there's so many nations and tribes to choose from.

[The Romulan Republic]

In any case, I think that some people are missing the point here. They're talking about setting themselves up as a conqueror or prophet. Well, in that case, aren't the natives still being conquered by an outsider? Maybe one more benevolent and advanced than the historical European conquerers often were, but still conquered. The fact that most of our board is probably European or of European descent just drives home the irony. You're not talking about opposing the imperialist conquest of the Americas. You're just saying "when I'm the conquerer, I'll get it right".

Sure, my grandparents may have relocated from Eastern Europe near the turn of the century(1900 in other words)and I speak English, but I was born in America. If I'm going to pick a side between the humans who were born in what are now the Americas and some conquistadors born in Spain, I pick... both actually. While not getting massive amounts of gold or other booty will be a net loss for the conquistadors, finding cultures with similar levels of technology would give them a trading partner on par or better than the China that Columbus set out to find, which is good for people on both sides of the Atlantic. Which is the best I can hope for, a peaceful meeting of people resulting in exchanges that hurt neither.

The last bit is a good point. Though I'd prefer to get their by means other than conquest.

Setting myself up as a ruler of men wouldn't help me out here; the best analogue to what I would like to become is a bit of a Gandalf figure, an adviser and friend to all good people, but not the holder of the reins of power, nor stationary. Hence why I wanted to know about walking and growing the beard.

The Gandalf thing isn't that far off from my approach.

I still have yet to figure out where I'd start though; the Americas are huge, and there's so many nations and tribes to choose from.

This is a very good point. I don't know nearly enough about the subject to say where the best place to start would be.

[Patroklos]

I think some of you are forgetting this font of knowledge is being distributed through one point. Only you can use the box, and using the box does nothing to change the fact that for the most part we are talking about severely fractured societies living primarily on the village or two scale with maybe a tenuous link to a larger entity that barely affects there day to day. With severe language differences to boot. And no transportation. It will take you several generations just to get a single tribe up to industrial level skills minus that hindrance, but you actually have to do it without upsetting the power stucture so much that you become the devil to everyone else. Politics is more important here than technology just like it always is. At least at first.

Also I am an expert in one thing, a hobbyist in a lot of others. Probably like most of you here. The think I am an expert in (global logistics) would be near useless to me in this scenario at least until some very distant end game. That fact is that the same is true for all of us. Everything a modern human does in a knowledge economy is predicated on so many levels of historic discovery and unseen competency that if stripped to the very beginning of any field we would be utterly useless. Oh, you know about materials technology? Working on that nano-tube problem? Well tell me how to smelt bronze. Yeah, you can't order that from the supply desk. Whats that? Yeah sorry you have to build a blast furnace from from wood, clay and maybe stone if you have a few decades for the local craftsmen to get it for you. Wait, you don't know what a smelting furnace looks like? Wait, do you know how to mine for tin? I am be factious here and realize some primarily Central and South American natives know about at least gold and copper smelting but you need to repeat this nearly every technology out there. In summary, you will be learning alongside whomever you can convince to listen to you, you will not be the fire bringer from Olympus.

We have examples of modern nations with all the wonders or technology and the highest levels of military horrors for persuasion technology can offer interacting with peoples who have every reason to submit and accept the new and better way. It generally ends up bloody. For those of you talking about transforming the Americans into enlightened paradises, did any of you stop to think that these people have their own ideas of what that looks like that has no resemblance to yours? Oh, you'll buy them off with your amazing technology you say? Whats the difference between that and a bag of glass beads? You could do this same scenario and change the setting to present day north Nigeria or ISIS Syria and you would probably fail and be dead to boot. You are talking about doing this to entire continents with even less familiarity and, yes, dare I say less attachment to your cultural ideas and technology than a Palmyra jihadi still bloody from chopping of heads. He is probably just as estranged from your ideology as any of the native americans in this scenario are but at least he knows what a computer is and appreciates it and ever tool he uses against you is from the same worldwide civilization.

A clarification: Whats the cook time on the objects this box makes?

[K. A. Pital]

They cannot kill or harm me, as long as my goals are to help them. I would assume that this is, effectively, divine protection, some sort of protective bubble or divine retribution that stops the people around me from harming me. Very soon all will understand that harming me is impossible, as it is really my goal to help them to repel foreign invasions and build up nationstates that are the basic unit of modern civilization. This bit does make it easer, as you should not be too concerned about them poisoning you or burying you alive and the like. You really are God's own ambassador as long as you are helping.

It is very obvious that they will have a different view on things. However, the change brought about by early industrial systems and Enlightenment education will be efficient - maybe not in the first decades, but slowly, century after century. In the end, the time given to you is also unlimited as long as you keep helping.

[Purple]

And we do not have to advance the whole continent at once. Go slowly, one tribe at a time. Say I start with the Zapotec as I said. They have a nice little culture going. I'd have them start conquering around expanding aggressively into other smaller tribes. Eventually I'd engineer a rebellion with the Aztecs, ally with one side and take them over as well. One step at a time I would slowly creep my way throughout South America.

[Borgholio]

A clarification: Whats the cook time on the objects this box makes?

A few seconds. You close the box, you hear a chime, then you open and what you requested is there.

[madd0ct0r]

and as long as it exists in the world, I can summon a copy?

Say, an atom on U238? Summoned to fill the box?
Given that's I'm immune from damage...

[Borgholio]

and as long as it exists in the world, I can summon a copy?

Say, an atom on U238? Summoned to fill the box?
Given that's I'm immune from damage...

As long as it's informational or medicinal. So a textbook would be ok or a vaccine, but not uranium.

[Purple]

and as long as it exists in the world, I can summon a copy?

Say, an atom on U238? Summoned to fill the box?
Given that's I'm immune from damage...

As long as it's informational or medicinal. So a textbook would be ok or a vaccine, but not uranium.

Wait we can actually spawn ready made vaccines? Can we spawn other medical miracles such as antibiotics too? That alone would mean we could cause any society we chose to have a population boom. How did I miss that?

What about crop strains? Can we have the box produce modern strains of corn and the like that have a very high yield?

[K. A. Pital]

Vaccines and crop varieties I think are an absolute must. Even a Victorian tech level society can succumb to epidemics. If we want to prevent a Spanish flu type of situation when the Europeans arrive, vaccination is important.

[madd0ct0r]

I thought the challenge was that such things needed to be discovered in the world first before the box could clone them?

[K. A. Pital]

Then we are screwed, as conquest largely predates vaccination, but the strains are not present in the new world, so no way to protect yourself against it...

[Eternal_Freedom]

The OP said that weapons had to be discovered int he world before the box would make them. Any other medicine, vaccine, crop strain, store of knowledge or educational material is available up to 21st century level.

[Borgholio]

Wait we can actually spawn ready made vaccines? Can we spawn other medical miracles such as antibiotics too?

Yes, so long as they are discovered by modern science.

What about crop strains? Can we have the box produce modern strains of corn and the like that have a very high yield?

No, it cannot produce food or seeds. It can produce farm equipment that has been discovered by Europe of that period.

I thought the challenge was that such things needed to be discovered in the world first before the box could clone them?

Weapons and tools, yes. Medicines can be modern-day. No point in giving the natives European tech if they still all die from smallpox anyways...

The OP said that weapons had to be discovered int he world before the box would make them. Any other medicine, vaccine, crop strain, store of knowledge or educational material is available up to 21st century level.

Not specifically crop strains, but modern day farming techniques can be brought forward, including how to create hybrids.

[Marko Dash]

given around 200 years the Niña, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria would get discovered by an early seaplane and escorted into a large port by at least a predreadnought type battleship.

kinda reminds me of playing as america in civ, IIRC i celebrated july 4th 1776 by launching the apollo 11.

[Borgholio]

Truth be told I was debating whether to give this RAR 1 or 2 centuries. I didn't know if only 100 years would be enough to spread the necessary knowledge, vaccines, or weapons to both continents.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Would you need to spread it to both continents before Columbus arrives? If you focus your efforts on the areas where he will land, you can ensure that no news of the New World returns to Spain. That way he gets written off as another lost expedition and you buy yourself more time to develop the Americas before more intrepid explorers arrive.

[Borgholio]

True, you would only have to make sure the islands of the Caribbean are prepared. Either kill Columbus and burn his ships, or simply demonstrated European-level technology so he won't see them as an easy target.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actualy I was going to go with simply keep him and his men on the islands. Burning the ships is a waste. Disassemble them, use the materials for something else. make sure we give all known vaccines to Columbus and his men. Then we use one of our ships (which will almost certainyl be much more advanced than his were) to return to Spain as the stronger power.

Make it clear to them that we are happy to trade with them, to provide knwoledge and medicines and so forth, but that any attempt for them, or any other European nation to settle in the New World will be met with deadly force.

[Purple]

Wait, if we stop the first contact from happening do we get more time? Like, say we sink every foreign ship that reaches the american continents.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would think so, if every expedition that sets out fails to return, people are going to stop paying for them after a while.

[Purple]

I would think so, if every expedition that sets out fails to return, people are going to stop paying for them after a while.

Yes, but do WE get more time. As in, does the entire setup with the immortality and stuff keep on going or does it end after the set date anyway?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would think so, if every expedition that sets out fails to return, people are going to stop paying for them after a while.

Yes, but do WE get more time. As in, does the entire setup with the immortality and stuff keep on going or does it end after the set date anyway?

The OP says we have 2 centuries till Columbus arrives, and we have the chance to change the outcome. I can only assume that we are allowed to stick around to see the results of these changes.

[Elheru Aran]

Important point. The box may be limitless, but the people aren't. If you want to teach them how to set up their own Industrial Revolution, you are going to have to teach them the basics of industry in the first place, and that requires resources-- iron, steel, and so forth.

How easy is it to mine iron in the Americas? Are there areas where it's easy enough to find? My understanding is that Europe benefitted from fairly easily mined iron sources from the late B.C.'s onward, but they never developed iron in the Americas until the colonizers arrived and found some small local iron sources such as bog-iron.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well if necessary you can have the box make lots of parts for things made from iron, like the cannons mentioned in the OP, and then use a furnace to melt them down. It's crude but it would work for a while, long enough to find local iron at least.