Abrams

[TrailerParkJawa]

Just about every report Ive read has different numbers on how many M-1 were lost and to what. They pretty much all agree that none were lost to enemy tank fire.

The tank that I heard about being scuttled was scuttled along with two APCs. The crews got stuck in mud and set off the tanks themselves.

I think the largest number Ive seen, and I cant remember where, is that 18 M-1 Abrams were knocked out of action for various reasons. Of those 9 were repaired.

I'll see what I can find and post later.

[Enlightenment]

The moderator of sci.military.moderated posted a list of Gulf War M1 losses into his newsgroup earlier this year. His post can be found here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ae ... put=gplain

[Soulman]

As for relative toughness, the M1 is definitely one of the toughest tanks around. This means nothing against top-attack munitions, but it's still noteworthy. Then come the latest British and French models, and I'd rank the Russian tanks at the bottom. ERA can only take it so far...

The Challenger 2 has better armour than the M1A2. It is however slower and not as accurate whilst firing on the move.

[Azeron]

The LA2 6 is not better armoured per say, and niether is the challenger. They have differnt amounts put on different parts. The M1A2 SEP have the most amrour on the turret, the germans have more on the bottom sections.

Both German and Amrican Armour protection is equivilient and a good deal more than any other tank fielded, with the one noteable exception of Isreals Mekk err somethng (I forgot how to spell it or pronouce) 4.

I already posted the figures on a previous thread on the abrams vs the leaopard if you want to go look for it.

You Put up a platoon of M1A2 SEP's against a Leopard Platoon, the M1A2's win. The fire control and electronics make the M1 a better pack killer, and in close combat unmatched, but not by far by the leopard. Distance gives the advantage to the leopard, but the distances we are talking about are so far, that most would not even attempt to engage.

[Vympel]

AHAHAHHAHAHAH

Yeah right, and a 120mm DU round fired from an Abrams
at a bogged down Abrams to destroy it...couldn't penetrate
it POINT BLANK in the REAR........

what makes you think shitty soviet guns will be able to kill it
when the M1's own gun couldn't do it?

I've heard this particular BULLSHIT story a million times, mate, and it's absolute nonsense, just like the DU penetrator that went through TWO Iraqi T-72s and other such fantasies.

Firstly, it is PHYSICALLY impossible for the M1 tank to have armor thick enough to repel ANY number of shots from a 120mm main gun at close range (hell even LONG range) from the rear. If it did, as someone else said it would make the German Maus look like a paper bag. Second of all, the story is total rubbish from the get go because the crew of a tank have their own THERMITE GRENADES to scuttle the fighting comparment and engine compartment. What kind of moron incompetent tankers waste main gun rounds when they have grenades for the purpose?!

As to the quality of Soviet ERA, I've read the Jane's article reporting on the US Army tests. I'd like to see any amateur armor fan with their irrational opinion of the quality of Soviet armor rebut the US Army's OWN TESTS.

As to the quality of Soviet tank ammo, I'd point out again that the Iraqis weren't using Soviet tank ammo- and the Russians have since released a few new rounds during the 1990s.

And as I said before, Depleted Uranium is not MAGIC. "You need a DU penetrator to penetrate DU armor" is a load of FUCKING BULLSHIT.

[Vympel]

The LA2 6 is not better armoured per say, and niether is the challenger. They have differnt amounts put on different parts. The M1A2 SEP have the most amrour on the turret, the germans have more on the bottom sections.

Both German and Amrican Armour protection is equivilient and a good deal more than any other tank fielded, with the one noteable exception of Isreals Mekk err somethng (I forgot how to spell it or pronouce) 4.

I already posted the figures on a previous thread on the abrams vs the leaopard if you want to go look for it.

You Put up a platoon of M1A2 SEP's against a Leopard Platoon, the M1A2's win. The fire control and electronics make the M1 a better pack killer, and in close combat unmatched, but not by far by the leopard. Distance gives the advantage to the leopard, but the distances we are talking about are so far, that most would not even attempt to engage.

In the latest Greek Army tank trials the Leopard 2A5 beat the M1A2 by a narrow margin.

The Leopard 2A6 also has a longer main gun.

[Vympel]

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/era.html

[Oberleutnant]

Both German and Amrican Armour protection is equivilient and a good deal more than any other tank fielded, with the one noteable exception of Isreals Mekk err somethng (I forgot how to spell it or pronouce) 4.

Merkava 4 is indeed a real beauty and its design is a result of real experience in armoured combat. The new Mk-4 has a new 120mm gun (greater muzzle velocity, new kinetic APFSDS-FS), an improved battle management system, probably a new type of armour, and an all new engine that also the French Leclerc uses.

[Azeron]

Yah I read about that one. It one becasue it can forge rivers, and fires at a distance no one would fire. In combat in forested areas it woulb be at a significant disadvantage similiar to what happen to the panzers in the ardens.

take away forging, and a cannon thats actual usefullness is null because of usual combat abilities the M1A2 SEP wins. Throw them into pack formations, and the SEP wins by even larger margin. Technology is movign towards team playing in tanks. very rarely does a tank fight with no other tanks in support. The US has a distinct advantage in this regards because of our advanced communications capactiy which is well over a decade ahead of anything the euros have. Thats why that don;t even bother mounting more sophisticated electronics and communication gear. Its useless without the support technology, and infrastructure.

[Azeron]

Hey mike since you are into pyshics and all, you think you could give us a perspectyive on armour penetration between DU plate against both tungsten and DU penetrator rounds?

[Anarchist Bunny]

A hand gun should do it. Stupid superman script.

[Pablo Sanchez]

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/era.html

Jeez, I had no idea Kontakt-5 was so good.

[Sea Skimmer]

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/era.html

Jeez, I had no idea Kontakt-5 was so good.

The problem is it costs several hundred thousand dollars per tank, and will kill any supporting infantry within about 100 feet. Plus the panels are very large, so it's possible to aim a second shot into the hole blasted by a first.

Actually short bursts of auto cannon fire against each tank so equipped would likely strip it all away. Still it is kick ass.

[Oberleutnant]

take away forging, and a cannon thats actual usefullness is null because of usual combat abilities the M1A2 SEP wins. Throw them into pack formations, and the SEP wins by even larger margin. Technology is movign towards team playing in tanks. very rarely does a tank fight with no other tanks in support. The US has a distinct advantage in this regards because of our advanced communications capactiy which is well over a decade ahead of anything the euros have. Thats why that don;t even bother mounting more sophisticated electronics and communication gear. Its useless without the support technology, and infrastructure.

Not all "Euros" use the same command and control systems in their MBTs and saying that Europeans don't bother upgrading their command & control systems is just stupid. While I don't doubt the fact that SEP is an advanced system, nor that US military has certain advantages because of its special needs, the systems used on M1A2 SEP (or the tank itself) are certainly not a decade ahead of Europe or the rest of the world. Gimme proof, damnit!

"The US has a distinct advantage in this regards because of our advanced communications capactiy" Please, elaborate. I'm sure you have a good point here but I'm not quite getting the message.

Complicated equipment such as modern-day tanks usually involve subcontractors from across the globe, for example Abrams has a German main gun and a Canadian fire control compture. An American company such as GDLS has employees from everywhere in the world working for them. American companies have a same technology level that is roughly the same in most European countries - on some areas it may be better, on some areas worse.

PS. What is your opinion of the Israeli command & control system?

[phongn]

The M1A2 SEP has the JTIDS datalink systems built in. I don't know if any other nations use something similar.

[Oberleutnant]

Phong, I guess not. GDLS (and a bunch of sub-contractors) were behind the SEP package that was specifically designed for Abrams, although nothing would prevent it from being installed to Leclerc. for example.

A quick googling reveals that JTIDS abbreiviation seems rather common in military technology.

[Oberleutnant]

In the latest Greek Army tank trials the Leopard 2A5 beat the M1A2 by a narrow margin.

I hate to come for Abrams' defence but trials are never a synonym for "which is the better mothafucka killing equipment". Politics, among many other things, play their part. However, compared to Leo 2, Abrams has had less than spectacular popularity in non-Arabic customers. I heard that Turkey which had chosen Leopard 2A6 after extensive testing, decided to buy M1A2 instead when the German Green-party opposed the Leo 2 deal.

[Azeron]

arabs have had it with soviet equipmwnt. They don't want euro companies that don't deliver on time and over promise on performance. They want customer care adn training from truely elite forces, ther eis only 1 stop and shop for that the USA arsenel of freedom Store. open 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year including hunakkah and xmass. You need to kill it, we got the weapon for you!!


Oh yah and we cna lay down a 3 gb ethernet down anywhere on the planet over a an entire theatre of operations with our advanced military communications satalites. That means we are very very cool.

I hear germans use walkie talkies in thie leopards.

The SEP has a modular component design I hear so yu can mix and match gear. I beleive they are working on systems for that espress purpose.

[Sea Skimmer]

In the latest Greek Army tank trials the Leopard 2A5 beat the M1A2 by a narrow margin.

I hate to come for Abrams' defence but trials are never a synonym for "which is the better mothafucka killing equipment". Politics, among many other things, play their part. However, compared to Leo 2, Abrams has had less than spectacular popularity in non-Arabic customers. I heard that Turkey which had chosen Leopard 2A6 after extensive testing, decided to buy M1A2 instead when the German Green-party opposed the Leo 2 deal.

The Greek Tank trails should not be used as proof for anything. The French had a team on sight, which was selectively jamming, and distorting GPS whenever a non-French tank was being demonstrated. This caused the M1 and Challenger II navigation systems to get screwed up and as a result the M1A2's battle management system was totally screwed up. Normally when GPS jamming is present, the M1's just do to the backup INS, but with it being distorted and no M5's around to tell them, that did not happen.

[HemlockGrey]

Dammit, the French are doing nothing to improve their military reputation.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The Greek Tank trails should not be used as proof for anything. The French had a team on sight, which was selectively jamming, and distorting GPS whenever a non-French tank was being demonstrated. This caused the M1 and Challenger II navigation systems to get screwed up and as a result the M1A2's battle management system was totally screwed up. Normally when GPS jamming is present, the M1's just do to the backup INS, but with it being distorted and no M5's around to tell them, that did not happen.

Fuckers.

[MKSheppard]

http://www.cvni.net/radio/e2k/e2k02news.html

French secret services accused of dirty tricks in Tank deal.

A £1bn tank bid to supply the Greek government with Challenger 2 tanks has raised suspicions that the French secret services used dirty tricks to scupper the British bid. French and British teams were among four countries in competition for the tender to supply 250 Tanks. The other countries being Germany and America.

During the tests the British Challenger tanks had difficulty with navigation and were unable to work out exactly where they were. The British use the satellite global positioning system, GPS, for navigation, whilst the French had no such problems with their navigation.

The Americans also claimed that their navigation suffered difficulty and it was later alleged that the French were covertly interfering with a GPS signal.

Investigations showed that a signal was transmitted blocking the signal from one satellite. Since the GPS system needs the signal from 3 or more satellites for accuracy the loss of just one signal means errors in navigation in excess of 100 yards.

In 1995 an American Institute think-tank estimated that France was devoting a third of its secret service budget to economic intelligence. This may well be true since agents from the DST, Direction et Surveillance du Territoire, [French Internal Security Service] removed documents from a hotel in Tolouse where British Aerospace executives were staying.

The Greek officials found the whole event to be most amusing and discounted the dirty-tricks in their decision making processes, eventually selecting the German made Leopard 2A5 Tank as their choice.

**********

OOOh, watch out pablo.....

Former KGB Colonel Executed.

Gennadi Bernoyski, 41, a former KGB Colonel was executed at his luxury Gold Coast Canal home at Benowa Waters, Australia.

Detective Inspector Len Potts stated that the ex-colonel was putting his rubbish out when he was shot several times in the stomach. The victim managed to crawl back inside the house but died before help could arrive. Two men in wet suits were seen on the night of the murder and if frogmen were involved they could have escaped by swimming across the canal.

He also suggested that a boat could have been waiting nearby explaining why no car was seen leaving the scene.

Seven empty cartridges from a handgun were found in the driveway.

Bernoyski's wife, Svetlana, 28, has stayed away from their home since the shooting.

It is not thought that Bernoyski's previous service with the KGB had anything to do with the shooting, whilst there also appears to be no links with the Russian Mafia.

[MKSheppard]

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&l ... .com#link1

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&l ... o.uk#link1

[Pablo Sanchez]

Former KGB Colonel Executed.

Gennadi Bernoyski, 41, a former KGB Colonel was executed at his luxury Gold Coast Canal home at Benowa Waters, Australia.

Whatever you may think, you cannot prove anything. I was not involved in the sad, lamentable death of this double-crossing born-again capitalist. But I will say that there is a possible of a certain M. Gorbachyev dying mysteriously.

[Vympel]

Well the French sure can be dodgy can't they!

"The problem is it costs several hundred thousand dollars per tank, and will kill any supporting infantry within about 100 feet. Plus the panels are very large, so it's possible to aim a second shot into the hole blasted by a first.

Actually short bursts of auto cannon fire against each tank so equipped would likely strip it all away. Still it is kick ass."

Yeah the ERA set costs more but considering that Russian tanks are already cheaper it doesn't really make much of a difference- I also thought that an autocannon would be able to strip it away but in an actual battlefield situation I doubt it would be much of a tactic- that Bradley firing its 25mm at the T-80 or T-90 a few thousand meters away will just be telling the tank "hey look at me!", instead of dealing with the vehicles on the battlefield it can actually kill.

I think its amazing that a tank that weighs more than 20 tons less than the M1A2 (T-90 only weighs 49 tons IIRC) can stand up to it on a battlefied- even though the Abrams is of course still the superior machine.