The problem is that the technology isn't really there to turn the OICW into a viable weapon. The reliability issue is the big deal and they don't have the tech to fix it.THe Yosemite Bear wrote:I mean after they built enough cleaning kits (Like say one for every person fighting rather then one for ten), got decent burning powder, bullets designed to actually be fired down the barrel of the gun, and replaced the Barrels, the M-16 kicked ass. Just it SUCKED to be a soldier in Vietnam, because of few things like this.
Is... (the OICW all it's cracked up to be?)
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Indeed. And with lessons learned from the CAR-15 and the Colt Commando, a carbine version, the M4 was developed. The M4 is the ultimate incarnation of the original M16 AR15 series rifle. It has an extendable stock, is a lighter weight weapon, has excelent accuracy at both range, and is a highly capable close combat weapon. It can be equiped with a large variety of modifications (as shown in the Canadian C8 version), but is still a rugged and simple weapon. It would be a pitty to replace the well designed M4 with the unreliable OICW.THe Yosemite Bear wrote:I mean after they built enough cleaning kits (Like say one for every person fighting rather then one for ten), got decent burning powder, bullets designed to actually be fired down the barrel of the gun, and replaced the Barrels, the M-16 kicked ass. Just it SUCKED to be a soldier in Vietnam, because of few things like this.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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What ever happened to the caseless-ammo gun they were looking at many years ago?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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The M-4 is shit at long range......14 inch barrels and the 5.56mm just don'tAlyeska wrote: Indeed. And with lessons learned from the CAR-15 and the Colt Commando, a carbine version, the M4 was developed. The M4 is the ultimate incarnation of the original M16 AR15 series rifle. It has an extendable stock, is a lighter weight weapon, has excelent accuracy at both range, and is a highly capable close combat weapon. It can be equiped with a large variety of modifications (as shown in the Canadian C8 version), but is still a rugged and simple weapon. It would be a pitty to replace the well designed M4 with the unreliable OICW.
mix....20 inches is the minimum for any kind of decent performance from
the 5.56. If you really need those extra few inches, just turn the bleeding
thing into a bullpup....
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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The HK G-11?Darth Wong wrote:What ever happened to the caseless-ammo gun they were looking at many years ago?
Had teething problems with it...and of course the cold war ended so no need
to waste money on it....
Prototype Caseless rounds
Final version of caseless round
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
That is incorrect. The maximum effective range that a soldier can fire their weapon with a standard scope is 600 meters. While dedicated snipers and highly skilled marskman can fire at longer ranges with an M16, this is not standard. Additionally combat ranges drop significantly. A target that a single soldier can hit at 600 meters will take SIX soldiers to hit in combat. Combat ranges drop significantly, and some of the range issues with rifles drop significantly. The possible ranges issues with the M4 (which are almost non existant) are negligable compared to the additional bonuses the M4 gets for its other capabilities.MKSheppard wrote:The M-4 is shit at long range......14 inch barrels and the 5.56mm just don'tAlyeska wrote: Indeed. And with lessons learned from the CAR-15 and the Colt Commando, a carbine version, the M4 was developed. The M4 is the ultimate incarnation of the original M16 AR15 series rifle. It has an extendable stock, is a lighter weight weapon, has excelent accuracy at both range, and is a highly capable close combat weapon. It can be equiped with a large variety of modifications (as shown in the Canadian C8 version), but is still a rugged and simple weapon. It would be a pitty to replace the well designed M4 with the unreliable OICW.
mix....20 inches is the minimum for any kind of decent performance from
the 5.56. If you really need those extra few inches, just turn the bleeding
thing into a bullpup....
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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At that range, with a 14 inch barrel, you have almost no freaking VELOCITYAlyeska wrote:The possible ranges issues with the M4 (which are almost non existant) are negligable compared to the additional bonuses the M4 gets for its other capabilities.
at all...you need the 20 inch barrel to give it POWER at that range....
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
A while back at SB I did a thread talking about the best possible replacements for the SA-80.
The final list of contenders was this.
Traditional
M16/M4 family
G-36
Sig-550-552 series
Bullpup
Styer Aug
FAMAS
FN F2000
All of the rifles listed were selected as the best rifles in the world today because they are effective rifles with good accuracy, relatively simple systems, and can be modified for other needs such as grenade launchers (which every single listed weapon can be equiped with).
With such well designed rifles, the OICW really has no place as a pure rifle replacement. Its only possible use would be a support weapon in order to utilize its large grenade clip.
The final list of contenders was this.
Traditional
M16/M4 family
G-36
Sig-550-552 series
Bullpup
Styer Aug
FAMAS
FN F2000
All of the rifles listed were selected as the best rifles in the world today because they are effective rifles with good accuracy, relatively simple systems, and can be modified for other needs such as grenade launchers (which every single listed weapon can be equiped with).
With such well designed rifles, the OICW really has no place as a pure rifle replacement. Its only possible use would be a support weapon in order to utilize its large grenade clip.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Well, it certainly looks like it would have been ultra-cool. Lightweight, with a huge ammo capacity. What's not to like?MKSheppard wrote:The HK G-11?
Had teething problems with it...and of course the cold war ended so no need
to waste money on it....
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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If you're gonna use a grenade option, just redesign the M203 or make new ammo for the thing. It shouldn't be *that* hard with all the new wiz-bang tech they're trying to apply to the OICW.Alyeska wrote:
With such well designed rifles, the OICW really has no place as a pure rifle replacement. Its only possible use would be a support weapon in order to utilize its large grenade clip.
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Actually....300 round magazine (!) for the Light Support Weapon variantEmperorMing wrote:The one H&K develpoed? Looked pretty good to me; 200 round magazine in a compact semi-bullpup configuration. Shep probably has more info...Darth Wong wrote:What ever happened to the caseless-ammo gun they were looking at many years ago?
of the G-11....
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Dam! You'd have your basic load in one clip...! Nice.MKSheppard wrote:Actually....300 round magazine (!) for the Light Support Weapon variantEmperorMing wrote:The one H&K develpoed? Looked pretty good to me; 200 round magazine in a compact semi-bullpup configuration. Shep probably has more info...Darth Wong wrote:What ever happened to the caseless-ammo gun they were looking at many years ago?
of the G-11....
DILLIGAF: Does It Look Like I Give A Fuck
Kill your God!
Had the G-11 been fully developed it would have made a very good rifle. Its lack of recoil compared to the other rifles made the 2nd and 3rd shots against a target much more accurate. It made fully auto fire surprinsly accurate. The entire system actually allowed soldiers to fire at long ranges with a higher degree of accuracy. What would take 6 soldiers with M16s to kill a target at 600m would only take 3 soldiers with the G-11.
Sadly with the end of the threat from the USSR, the rifle design was killed. Sure, we got the G-36 instead from H&K, and thats a damn nice design, but the G-11 could have done so much to the assault rifle designs. Hopefully someone with a brain will take the idea for the G-11 and design an assault rifle from that in the next 20 years.
Sadly with the end of the threat from the USSR, the rifle design was killed. Sure, we got the G-36 instead from H&K, and thats a damn nice design, but the G-11 could have done so much to the assault rifle designs. Hopefully someone with a brain will take the idea for the G-11 and design an assault rifle from that in the next 20 years.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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When can the British army expect a replacement for the SA80?
I have on pretty good authority that its one of the worst assault rifles ever.
I have on pretty good authority that its one of the worst assault rifles ever.
I felt like putting a bullet between the eyes of every Panda that wouldn't screw to save its species.
I wanted to open the dump valves on oil tankers and smother all the French beaches I'd never see. - Jack, Fight club
I wanted to open the dump valves on oil tankers and smother all the French beaches I'd never see. - Jack, Fight club
There was some talk earlier this year of replacing the rifle with the C7 or G36 by 2008, with the Royal Marines and other readily-deployable troops being given priority for the new weapon. But this was said by some to have been a combination of wishful thinking and a misreading of an MoD statement; 2008 will apparently be the date by which all SA80s will be modified to A2 standard (alledged to still be useless by the troops).Dirty Harry wrote:When can the British army expect a replacement for the SA80?
I have on pretty good authority that its one of the worst assault rifles ever.
So the answer would appear to be: probably never. Ain't it great?
.
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Yeah I know what you mean. I've also been told that the standard issue weapon of the Royal marines might as well be the M16 A2, as no-one takes the SA80 if they have the chance. Well, if they don't fancy coming back they take it but other than that.......RadiO wrote:There was some talk earlier this year of replacing the rifle with the C7 or G36 by 2008, with the Royal Marines and other readily-deployable troops being given priority for the new weapon. But this was said by some to have been a combination of wishful thinking and a misreading of an MoD statement; 2008 will apparently be the date by which all SA80s will be modified to A2 standard (alledged to still be useless by the troops).Dirty Harry wrote:When can the British army expect a replacement for the SA80?
I have on pretty good authority that its one of the worst assault rifles ever.
So the answer would appear to be: probably never. Ain't it great?
.
I felt like putting a bullet between the eyes of every Panda that wouldn't screw to save its species.
I wanted to open the dump valves on oil tankers and smother all the French beaches I'd never see. - Jack, Fight club
I wanted to open the dump valves on oil tankers and smother all the French beaches I'd never see. - Jack, Fight club
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A while back I did a thread at SB about the best replacement for the SA80.Dirty Harry wrote:When can the British army expect a replacement for the SA80?
I have on pretty good authority that its one of the worst assault rifles ever.
The final list of contenders was this.
Styr Aug
G-36
M16/M4 or C7/C8
FAMAS (if modified for M203 as the original design allowed)
Sig550(includes 551 and 552)
FN F2000 (only after extensive field testing though)
All the listed weapons display equal or greater capabilities over the SA80 and have added capabilities such as modificaitons and underslung grenade launchers.
The Styr Aug and M16/C7 weapons have the most combat experience. The Sig-550 series is a well made Switzerland weapon with similar capabilites to the M16 series. The FAMAS is a relatively succesful French weapon, but the newest versions gave STANAG compatibility while removing M203 combatability. The G-36 is the newest H&K assault rifle and its just damned well made. The FN-F2000 is the newest Bullpup on the block and has some of the advanced weapon features from the OICW but in a smaller and easier to maintain package.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
That's interesting. I vaguely remember a MoD statement that the Marines seen with M-4s and M-16s in Afganistan were using American equipment for interoperatabilty with US forces , or something like that. Are M-16s officially issued then, on the quiet?Dirty Harry wrote: Yeah I know what you mean. I've also been told that the standard issue weapon of the Royal marines might as well be the M16 A2, as no-one takes the SA80 if they have the chance. Well, if they don't fancy coming back they take it but other than that.......
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Maximum effective range for an M-16A2 against a point target (human sized) is 550m. Please note that this assumes the target is statinary and the shooter is in the prone position for best support. maximum effective range against an area target (a house or vehicle) is 800m.Alyeska wrote: That is incorrect. The maximum effective range that a soldier can fire their weapon with a standard scope is 600 meters.
Now the BIG however is that the US Army does not train its soldiers at ranges beyond 300yds and the USMC trains out to 500yds and even then rate of hit is not that great...on a Known Distance range. In other words accurately placing rounds on target even with the full elngth -16A2 is difficult out past about 300yds for the average marksman. Even more important than that is the M998 round is rather weak at those ranges.
With the -14 you compond all the problems already present with he -16A2 not the least ofwhich is a different balance that alters trajectory. Furthermore the shorer barrel makes it unsuited past 300m, same as the
-16, but to an even greater degree. Most grunts I've talked to prefer the
-16 for everything except MOUT.
The above is simply unture. The M4 has many other tradeoffs associated with it than, what you call negligible, range issues. For staters the M4 has a balance problem when compared with the -16 that is only exascerbated when you add either a spoting laser or an M203 40mm Grenade Launcher. Furthermore what you call negligible range problems are actually impact problems. WHile the -4 fires the same round out to the same distance it has less velocity which translates into less hitting power. Already with the -16 its tough enough to get a real hit at 300m (the 5.56 round is shit for penetration power) and the -4 is worse. Again almost every grunt I've ever tlaked to on the issue uniformly prefers the -16 unless its a MOUT situation.While dedicated snipers and highly skilled marskman can fire at longer ranges with an M16, this is not standard. Additionally combat ranges drop significantly. A target that a single soldier can hit at 600 meters will take SIX soldiers to hit in combat. Combat ranges drop significantly, and some of the range issues with rifles drop significantly. The possible ranges issues with the M4 (which are almost non existant) are negligable compared to the additional bonuses the M4 gets for its other capabilities.
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MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
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I'd rather not have an infantry weapon in which reloading takes a barrel change. For that matter there's almost nothing I'd want that it except a small caliber grenade launcher. For that I have a use for a two barreled storm weapon.
Nothing else Metal storm is worthwhile.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2002-10-22 06:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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The rifle works just fine without power and can be detached and used as a SMG. Though it seems to lack a shoulder stock, so its not something you'd want to have to use for any length of time.Admiral Piett wrote:I suppose that the 5.56mm rifle mounted on it should still work even without batteries.Darth Wong wrote:Hmmm ... what about those experimental EMP mortar shells?
Imagine an entire army with non-functioning rifles.
Random note: The G11's round has been recycled into the MP-7, in a shortened form though.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956