Nationalism...how much is too much?

[Raptor 597]

Well, if you are patriotic it shouldn't be monatary, but on the inside is what counts. Fuck all those Neo Nazi Wannabes , and their Mindless Dogs known as the citizen. Anyways, I loved this contry before September 11, and now the people telling me too be patriotic now said fuck the US on September 10th. You know what? Fuck them.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Nationalism inevitably leads to fascism. Its an unfortunate truth.

That's a ridiculous fallacy. Nationalism and Fascism are completely unrelated things, with countless countries during the 19th and early 20th centuries being nationalistic in the extreme, and never having fascist governments, and now being normal democracies today. I hope you were being sarcastic; I really, really do.

[weemadando]

Nationalism inevitably leads to fascism. Its an unfortunate truth.

That's a ridiculous fallacy. Nationalism and Fascism are completely unrelated things, with countless countries during the 19th and early 20th centuries being nationalistic in the extreme, and never having fascist governments, and now being normal democracies today. I hope you were being sarcastic; I really, really do.

I'm not. Nationalism, if allowed to continue expanding will inevitably lead to facism. France at the moment is a VERY nationalistic state. They have a strong democracy, but the nation is still right-wing simply because of the nationalism.

Some nations that have experienced nationalism have moved back towards the centre before it got out of hand.

But the fact remains that nationalism is a mere step away from facism. Look up the definitions of facism. This is a good paper to start with: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~semp/facism.htm

[phongn]

I think I have to agree with Ando here (watches as the board faints in shock). Nationalism, left unchecked, will very likely lead to fascism.

I see little wrong with patriotism, love for country, etc. but nationalism is something else entirely.

[weemadando]

I think I have to agree with Ando here (watches as the board faints in shock).

*has massive coronary*

Somebody call 000!

[Steve]

Oh, for Christ's sake, I cannot believe this....

I, for one, am very proud of my country. Our glorious Republic, which has over two hundred years refined it's values to become the pinnacle of Western civilization, stands atop the world; we are the true inheritors of the legacy of Athens, Thebes, and Rome. And on September 11th, we were attacked. Yes, citizens from other nations were killed, but it was our property that was destroyed, the majority of the blood shed was our blood; blood shed by Islamic fundamentalists that have the Middle East and most of the Islamic world in their grip.

That's all the justification we need to see Baghdad, Damascus, and Riyadh burn. And so shall it be done. Europe and the UN can get on board or get the hell out of our way. For the peace of the world, Islamic radicalism across the globe must be confronted and crushed without mercy, their civilizations dishonored on their home soil and their spirit humiliated. We can then rebuild them as we rebuilt Japan (And perhaps better than we rebuilt Japan).

[Vympel]

Oh, for Christ's sake, I cannot believe this....

I, for one, am very proud of my country. Our glorious Republic, which has over two hundred years refined it's values to become the pinnacle of Western civilization, stands atop the world. And on September 11th, we were attacked. Yes, citizens from other nations were killed, but it was our property that was destroyed, the majority of the blood shed was our blood; blood shed by Islamic fundamentalists that have the Middle East and most of the Islamic world in their grip.

That's all the justification we need to see Baghdad, Damascus, and Riyadh burn. And so shall it be done. Europe and the UN can get on board or get the hell out of our way. For the peace of the world, Islamic radicalism across the globe must be confronted and crushed without mercy, their civilizations dishonored on their home soil and their spirit humiliated. We can then rebuild them as we rebuilt Japan (And perhaps better than we rebuilt Japan).

Never have I heard such arrogant, inflated, self-important, imperialistc nonsense.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think I have to agree with Ando here (watches as the board faints in shock). Nationalism, left unchecked, will very likely lead to fascism.

I see little wrong with patriotism, love for country, etc. but nationalism is something else entirely.

And I have to disagree vigorously, because I think that Fascism has certain psychological overtones of a mythical nature - this has been the case in every fascist government - that are impossible to gain through simple progression, but are rather the result of a complex series of factors.

[Darth Wong]

I, for one, am very proud of my country.

There is a difference between patriotism and jingoism.

Our glorious Republic, which has over two hundred years refined it's values to become the pinnacle of Western civilization, stands atop the world.

From a macroeconomic and military sense, yes. From a quality of life standpoint, not necessarily; there are many problems such as repressive regions, religious theocratic forces at work, and other problems such as a fucked-up health care system, fucked-up legal system, high crime rate, rap music, etc. Some of the language in the original declaration of independence was great stuff. A lot of the ideas in the constitution were great stuff. But a whole lot of shit has been piled on top since then.

And on September 11th, we were attacked. Yes, citizens from other nations were killed, but it was our property that was destroyed, the majority of the blood shed was our blood; blood shed by Islamic fundamentalists that have the Middle East and most of the Islamic world in their grip.

That's all the justification we need to see Baghdad, Damascus, and Riyadh burn. And so shall it be done. Europe and the UN can get on board or get the hell out of our way. For the peace of the world, Islamic radicalism across the globe must be confronted and crushed without mercy, their civilizations dishonored on their home soil and their spirit humiliated. We can then rebuild them as we rebuilt Japan (And perhaps better than we rebuilt Japan).

The Russians tried this tactic in Chechnya. It is still a festering problem despite a decade of atrocities and brutal suppression (100,000 civilians dead and counting), and Chechnya is nothing compared to the whole of the Middle East. Complex problems are not always amenable to simple solutions, Steve.

[Steve]

Never have I heard such arrogant, inflated, self-important, imperialistc nonsense.

The truth sometimes hurts. But facts are facts.

And imperialistic? Perhaps so... perhaps the ultimate result of this war will be an Imperium Americana to succeed where Imperium Romana did not; bringing Western civilization, all of it, to Arabia, and with it all the promises of the West; secular rationalism, civil audit of the military, the concepts of citizenship and democracy, and constitutional and consensual government, as well as our military capabilities which they already seek to possess.

[salm]

Oh, for Christ's sake, I cannot believe this....

I, for one, am very proud of my country. Our glorious Republic, which has over two hundred years refined it's values to become the pinnacle of Western civilization, stands atop the world; we are the true inheritors of the legacy of Athens, Thebes, and Rome. And on September 11th, we were attacked. Yes, citizens from other nations were killed, but it was our property that was destroyed, the majority of the blood shed was our blood; blood shed by Islamic fundamentalists that have the Middle East and most of the Islamic world in their grip.

That's all the justification we need to see Baghdad, Damascus, and Riyadh burn. And so shall it be done. Europe and the UN can get on board or get the hell out of our way. For the peace of the world, Islamic radicalism across the globe must be confronted and crushed without mercy, their civilizations dishonored on their home soil and their spirit humiliated. We can then rebuild them as we rebuilt Japan (And perhaps better than we rebuilt Japan).

being proud of your country is bullshit. if you say you´re proud of your country you say that you´re bein proud of being a citizen of this country. since you didnt do anything to be a citizen of this country you cant be proud of it becouse pride infers that you´ve accomplished something.

[Steve]

There is a difference between patriotism and jingoism.

And what would you define as jingoism?

From a macroeconomic and military sense, yes. From a quality of life standpoint, not necessarily; there are many problems such as repressive regions, religious theocratic forces at work, and other problems such as a fucked-up health care system, fucked-up legal system, high crime rate, rap music, etc. Some of the language in the original declaration of independence was great stuff. A lot of the ideas in the constitution were great stuff. But a whole lot of shit has been piled on top since then.

And, so too, has developments that have spread voting rights from white men of property to all citizens, the destruction of slavery when Southern reactionaries tried to maintain it with force, and a refinement of our system.

No system is perfect. But Western civilization has many advantages that I prefer over others, not the least of those the concept of citizenship and civil participation in government.

The Russians tried this tactic in Chechnya. It is still a festering problem despite a decade of atrocities and brutal suppression (100,000 civilians dead and counting), and Chechnya is nothing compared to the whole of the Middle East. Complex problems are not always amenable to simple solutions, Steve.

Yes, they did. They even negotiated with Chechnya and left it alone for years. That is, until the Chechnyans invaded a neighboring province of Russia.

Negotiation didn't work. The Russian setbacks were just as much the result of incompetent leadership as any other factor.

And while you can point to Chechnya, which was negotiated with, I can point to Imperial Japan, which was not negotiated with.... and was crushed under superior weight of arms by the United States (with peripheral help from Britain and Australia).

And Japan was more of a threat than the Islamic world is today.

How is the problem that complex? The terrorist leadership is affluent (bin Laden himself is a millionaire) and their entire motive is a hypocritical hatred of the West fueled by religious motivation. They love our toys but hate our societies. And they have support in most of the countries that pretend to be our allies, like Saudi Arabia.

The answer is simple. Brutal, but simple. The Islamic fundamentalists must be made to pay for their crimes like Imperial Japan was for their atrocities. We must dishonor their entire culture, as we did the cultures of militarist Japan, the Third Reich, and the Confederacy, and as Epaminondas and his Thebans dishonored the militarist culture of Sparta in the Great March of 370-369 B.C. By directing our wrath at the supporters of terror, and making them pay a material price for their transgressions, while taking great pains not to inflict casualties among the civilian populace (as we did in Afghanistan, despite what leftist twits claim). Sherman did the same thing in his March to the Sea and the subsequent march through Carolina; he burned the plantations and spared as much as possible the handful of poor farms he encountered, he brought the war home to those who had given it their support from afar. Just as the autocrats of the Middle East are doing today.

What is your alternative, Mike? Negotiations? Leaving Hussein alone? Abandoning Israel to the wolves? Please, enlighten us.

[Steve]

being proud of your country is bullshit. if you say you´re proud of your country you say that you´re bein proud of being a citizen of this country. since you didnt do anything to be a citizen of this country you cant be proud of it becouse pride infers that you´ve accomplished something.

I respectfully disagree. I was born here. I was raised here. I have studied my country's history, our heritage, and our ideals, and I am proud of them, the general accomplishment of the men and women who have lived on these shores, both born here and not born here.

Moreover, I love my freedom, and to mee, the pinnacle of being American is to love freedom and hate tyranny. That last fact makes it hard to swallow when, for reasons of greed or realpolitik, we support vicious autocrats like the shieks.

[salm]

being proud of your country is bullshit. if you say you´re proud of your country you say that you´re bein proud of being a citizen of this country. since you didnt do anything to be a citizen of this country you cant be proud of it becouse pride infers that you´ve accomplished something.

I respectfully disagree. I was born here. I was raised here. I have studied my country's history, our heritage, and our ideals, and I am proud of them, the general accomplishment of the men and women who have lived on these shores, both born here and not born here.

Moreover, I love my freedom, and to mee, the pinnacle of being American is to love freedom and hate tyranny. That last fact makes it hard to swallow when, for reasons of greed or realpolitik, we support vicious autocrats like the shieks.

love for something is not the same as pride for something. you can be proud of something because you´ve accomplished it and are better in something than others are, e.g you can be proud of getting a degree in somthing because you´re intelligent enough to master college or you can be proud of running 100 meters in less then 10 seconds because you´ve trained hard.
you can love something, e.g. your country because it gives you freedom or wealth or whatever.

being proud of someone else is something different. you can say they are better because they managed to accomplish something e.g. fighting successfully for freedom. but you can project this on yourself unless you´re one of the people who have fought for freedom. what i want to say is that being an [insert nationality] on its own cant give you a feeling of pride.

[salm]

being born and raised somewhere is not something you´ve accomplished and therfor you cant be proud of it since it happened accidently.

[Steve]

If you want to play semantics, salm, I'm proud of the accomplishments of my fellow Americans, who embody my country.... thus I'm proud of my country.

Happy?

[Knife]

being born and raised somewhere is not something you´ve accomplished and therfor you cant be proud of it since it happened accidently.

No, but as for me, I vote, pay my taxes, stay current on current events(like there is any other way), and served my country in one of the harshest ways possible. I participate in a Democratic Republic and I am proud to be apart of it with all its failures and triumphs.

[Darth Wong]

And what would you define as jingoism?

Patriotism is loyalty to your country (not necessarily the government that happens to be running it). Jingoism is Azeron-style "my country is better than yours" bragging.

And, so too, has developments that have spread voting rights from white men of property to all citizens, the destruction of slavery when Southern reactionaries tried to maintain it with force, and a refinement of our system.

You hung onto slavery and white-only voting longer than many other countries. Don't take credit for things your country had to be dragged kicking and screaming into.

No system is perfect. But Western civilization has many advantages that I prefer over others, not the least of those the concept of citizenship and civil participation in government.

Western civilization and "the United States" are not synonymous. We were talking about the US, and your jingoistic claims about its superiority to all other nations.

How is the problem that complex? The terrorist leadership is affluent (bin Laden himself is a millionaire) and their entire motive is a hypocritical hatred of the West fueled by religious motivation. They love our toys but hate our societies. And they have support in most of the countries that pretend to be our allies, like Saudi Arabia.

And you could kill them all without killing the problems that breed more terrorists. Worse yet, the more collateral damage you inflict during this campaign (which incidentally has little or nothing to do with Iraq), the more future terrorism you will breed.

The answer is simple. Brutal, but simple. The Islamic fundamentalists must be made to pay for their crimes like Imperial Japan was for their atrocities. We must dishonor their entire culture, as we did the cultures of militarist Japan, the Third Reich, and the Confederacy, and as Epaminondas and his Thebans dishonored the militarist culture of Sparta in the Great March of 370-369 B.C. By directing our wrath at the supporters of terror, and making them pay a material price for their transgressions, while taking great pains not to inflict casualties among the civilian populace (as we did in Afghanistan, despite what leftist twits claim). Sherman did the same thing in his March to the Sea and the subsequent march through Carolina; he burned the plantations and spared as much as possible the handful of poor farms he encountered, he brought the war home to those who had given it their support from afar. Just as the autocrats of the Middle East are doing today.

Oooh, big tough American talk. Did it occur to you that perhaps those historical precedents don't apply? People who are industrialized and comfortable wish to return to those conditions, and are capable of taking rational actions to achieve that goal. The Japanese and Germans qualify. Just enough of the Deep South qualified to make it work ... barely. But Islamic terrorists are a different breed; they are accustomed to poverty and lawlessness. Osama is wealthy, but his foot soldiers aren't. Chechnya demonstrated that even incredibly ruthless suppression won't take the fight out of people like this.

What is your alternative, Mike? Negotiations? Leaving Hussein alone? Abandoning Israel to the wolves? Please, enlighten us.

Yes, abandon Israel to the wolves. Fuck 'em; they haven't done a thing for you in half a century except demand aid and get you in trouble. "Racial homelands" are a degenerate social anachronism. Then, yes, you try to negotiate with Saddam. You may negotiate at gunpoint if necessary; I do not necessarily rule that out. But so far, no one is giving him an "out", so what's he supposed to do? Why dismiss the option untried? And don't tell me this is about the morality of his treatment of his own people; you're still in bed with China and Russia, remember?

It is difficult to foretell the future. Maybe the US will march in, the Iraqi forces will fold like a house of cards, and everything will come out smelling rosy-fresh. On the other hand, maybe the US will march in, the Iraqi forces and people will fight tooth and nail in the cities where massive aerial bombardment is not a realistic option without discarding anything remotely resembling moral imperative (not to mention losing all international support), and it will become a sinkhole of resources and men. It is easy to say that you support an action when the cost of that action is not yet known.

[salm]

If you want to play semantics, salm, I'm proud of the accomplishments of my fellow Americans, who embody my country.... thus I'm proud of my country.

Happy?

hnm... kind of.
what i want to say is that you cant be proud because you´re american or german or french or chinese.

[Steve]

Patriotism is loyalty to your country (not necessarily the government that happens to be running it). Jingoism is Azeron-style "my country is better than yours" bragging.

But how do you distinguish the context of bragging about superiority to the pointing out of simple facts? Qualitively, the US is better than Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, or Iraq.... We have higher standards of living, consensual constitutional government, civil audit of the military, and a prosperous middle class.

'Tis not a boast, 'tis truth.

You hung onto slavery and white-only voting longer than many other countries. Don't take credit for things your country had to be dragged kicking and screaming into.

More like portions of our country had to be dragged kicking and screaming into. Slavery was illegal in the most prosperous regions of the United States through most of it's history. The South's planters used all of their chips to try and keep their system, and eventually they ran out of chips and had to resort to violence (And over a threat that was non-existant). We all know how that ended up: South Carolina, North Carolina, and Georgia paid the wages of their folly to Sherman and his Army of the West.

BTW, White-only voting was illegalized by the 14th and 15th Amendments in 1865; that Southern states got around this is a sad state of affairs, and one that has also been settled, thank heavens.

Western civilization and "the United States" are not synonymous. We were talking about the US, and your jingoistic claims about its superiority to all other nations.

The US is the most powerful Western state. That gives us an added height over the other nations of the West, many of which having now become bogged down by guilt over past misdeeds, utopian pacifism, and moral relativism.

That the US is the world's only superpower is established fact, and thus we are "superior" in that sense.... but that does not equate to proclaiming it's citizens intristically superior to all other nations. Australians, Canadians, Britons, all contribute today to the continuance of Western supremacy. Russia will, hopefully, soon join us. And will likely make a better ally than the forming European Union in the long run.

And you could kill them all without killing the problems that breed more terrorists. Worse yet, the more collateral damage you inflict during this campaign (which incidentally has little or nothing to do with Iraq), the more future terrorism you will breed.

So, basically, when we have ruined the terrorists' sources of income, taken their lands, and robbed them of their cannon fodder through humanitarian aid during occupation, and best of all shattered their illusion that Allah will join them in battle, they will still fight?

Somehow.... I don't think so. Rather, I think that a war waged in the right way, with emphasis placed on military targets and the autocratic elite of Iraq (and later other targets), followed with military occupation and the restructuring of society as we did in Japan will reduce that possibility sharply.

Oooh, big tough American talk.

That sounds very... European.

Did it occur to you that perhaps those historical precedents don't apply? People who are industrialized and comfortable wish to return to those conditions, and are capable of taking rational actions to achieve that goal. The Japanese and Germans qualify.

Germans, yes. Japanese? No. They had some industrialization, but where still quite "Third World" in standard of living during the war.

Just enough of the Deep South qualified to make it work ... barely. But Islamic terrorists are a different breed; they are accustomed to poverty and lawlessness. Osama is wealthy, but his foot soldiers aren't. Chechnya demonstrated that even incredibly ruthless suppression won't take the fight out of people like this.

Because Chechnya was a half-hearted gesture that was not prosecuted fully.

Yes, abandon Israel to the wolves. Fuck 'em; they haven't done a thing for you in half a century except demand aid and get you in trouble.

I'd rather not. They're the one secular democracy in the Middle East, and along with the Turks, our only real ally.

And by supporting them, we actually protect the Arabs. The Israelis know full well that an Arab victory will be the equivalent of a second Holocaust, and they'll go to any length to stop it.... or bring their murderers down with them. And they do have nukes.

"Racial homelands" are a degenerate social anachronism.

You seem to fail to understand that nations such as the United States and Canada (and to a lesser extent Australia) are the exceptions that prove the rule. The modern world is filled with Nation-States, Mike. Nations are groups of people, and like it or not, most of those save for the melting pot ex-colonies of Africa are "racial homelands"; for the Filipinos, the Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, etc.

I have no problem with the Jews of the world having a homeland. I'm not entirely happy at the bloodshed that's happened over there, and consider the formation of Israel to have been a hasty decision, but what's done is done, and I support the continued existance of the Israeli Nation-State; it at the very least is a consensual government with established basic law and republican government.

Cand considering that Druze Arabs and some Palestinians enjoy Israeli citizenship, and all the benefits thereof, it's not quite as monolithic as you think. That more do not is not just the blame of Israeli extremists, but also of Palestinians and how they have allowed legitimate grievances to be hijacked by terrorists (Who in turn incite them to want Israel's destruction more than peace).

Then, yes, you try to negotiate with Saddam. You may negotiate at gunpoint if necessary; I do not necessarily rule that out. But so far, no one is giving him an "out", so what's he supposed to do? Why dismiss the option untried? And don't tell me this is about the morality of his treatment of his own people; you're still in bed with China and Russia, remember?

We negotiated with him already. For the last ten years we've done nothing but play a tug-of-war with him diplomatically, and where has it gotten us? Nowhere.

By barring weapons inspectors on so many occasions, he's violated the ceasefire that halted American tanks in Iraq in '91. We are now legally free to, whenever we desire, resume the conflict. It shall hopefully be done shortly.

It is difficult to foretell the future. Maybe the US will march in, the Iraqi forces will fold like a house of cards, and everything will come out smelling rosy-fresh. On the other hand, maybe the US will march in, the Iraqi forces and people will fight tooth and nail in the cities where massive aerial bombardment is not a realistic option without discarding anything remotely resembling moral imperative (not to mention losing all international support), and it will become a sinkhole of resources and men. It is easy to say that you support an action when the cost of that action is not yet known.

Considering the shoddy record of Eastern armies against Western armies (and how Eastern armies tend to lose a war or conflict with one battle, such as Salamis or Poitiers, while Western armies can be annihilated as thoroughly as the Romans were at Cannae and still win in the end), and American anger over terrorism... I like the odds.

And we rebuilt Tokyo after we incinerated it, as well as many other German and Japanese cities. We'll rebuild the Iraqi cities too, as well as other infrastructure improvements.

I'll laugh like hell when, within six months of the fall of Baghdad, the Iraqi people are enjoying more prosperity under American military governorship than they did at any time under Hussein.

[Enlightenment]

I'll laugh like hell when, within six months of the fall of Baghdad, the Iraqi people are enjoying more prosperity under American military governorship than they did at any time under Hussein.

Just like the prosperity the Afgans are enjoying after Taliban was erased....

Nation building is unAmerican: you people are just going to do yet another seagull act in Iraq, just like you've done everywhere else after WWII. You're going to take over Iraq, get rid of Saddam (if you're lucky, maybe he'll be a bit slower of mind than bin Laden and you'll manage to kill/catch him) make a huge mess of the country then wash your hands of the matter and abandon everything beyond Shrubby's oil fields and perhaps a few cities. Meanwhile the rest of what used to be Iraq will degenerate into chaos and turn into yet another base/recruiting region for al Qaida.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I still think the US has a damn good government system...its worked well for over 200 years, but I feel that we must be on guard against these so called Patriots useing religion and Nationalistic retoric, who seem to be comeing more and more into power these days. If it keeps going like this..I feel that we may be forced to learn a very hard lesson...just like the Germans did in the 30s and 40s. and it will happen soon...within our generation or the next.

Just because the Germans have consistenly been confused about the nature and purpose of imperialism since Bismarck and failed to realize the difference between diplomacy and blitzkrieg does not doom the U.S. to fascist subjugation.

We have nowhere near the number or intensity of ideologue morons that Germany has had. Most of our politicians change their horns relatively and actually care very little about most issues, manipulating them to get power and little else.

Hell, the government subsidized "poems" by black racists that decreed the death of cops and Americans and praising 3rd world hell holes. Shit, we patronize those who favor our destruction; we're nowhere near fascist. In fact, we've become annoyingly touchy-feely and downright pussy at times.

[Stuart Mackey]

The government is slowly whittling away at our rights, using excuses like terrorism to make the people comply. The citizenry does not care because it is too ignorant.

Well I dont nessarily think this is a deliberate attack on American rights, so much as abuse of a situation to gain personal power. One need only look at one senator McCarthy and his tactics, drum up support by playing on peoples fear. Something similar happned after WW1 with the round up and deportation of people thought to be 'reds' or radicals.
What is a issue is that Americans can be so gullible as to belive and tolerate such tripe in the firstplace. McCarthy and the committee for unAmerican activities acted in a manner that was in the finest traditions of the Soviet Union. But it is also a tribute to Americans that they sooner or later get rid of such people for being the potential threat that they are. Of course one day they might not...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nation building is unAmerican: you people are just going to do yet another seagull act in Iraq, just like you've done everywhere else after WWII. You're going to take over Iraq, get rid of Saddam (if you're lucky, maybe he'll be a bit slower of mind than bin Laden and you'll manage to kill/catch him) make a huge mess of the country then wash your hands of the matter and abandon everything beyond Shrubby's oil fields and perhaps a few cities. Meanwhile the rest of what used to be Iraq will degenerate into chaos and turn into yet another base/recruiting region for al Qaida.

Define "unAmerican."

Define "you people."

Explain how military governing ship is not actually denounced by the holier-then-thou "international community," and not American planners. The Soviets displayed why occupying Afghanistan was not wise, and we never invaded to begin with. The Taliban was a foriegn force dominating that country composed of Pakistani Islamic students. We crushed them for harboring Al Quaeda and Al Quaeda was ground to powder for good old national defense/retaliation. I mean damn, where's the American grudge for the Canadians retaliating against America by marching to DC and burning the White House for trying to invade their country in 1812?

How bout you judge what's happening now or has happened rather then whining about shit that hasn't transpired yet.

Better yet, why don't you make an alternative proposal that isn't total bullshit.

The government is slowly whittling away at our rights, using excuses like terrorism to make the people comply. The citizenry does not care because it is too ignorant.

Political scare tactics don't impress me.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Just like the prosperity the Afgans are enjoying after Taliban was erased....

And it is prosperity. Lawlessness, yes, but that's better than outright war, which they previously "enjoyed". Their country is recovering, aide is pouring in, and the end result may yet be good, though I am concerned with the course we took there (Namely in regard to the King). However, in Afghanistan it was probably the best.

Nation building is unAmerican: you people are just going to do yet another seagull act in Iraq, just like you've done everywhere else after WWII. You're going to take over Iraq, get rid of Saddam (if you're lucky, maybe he'll be a bit slower of mind than bin Laden and you'll manage to kill/catch him) make a huge mess of the country then wash your hands of the matter and abandon everything beyond Shrubby's oil fields and perhaps a few cities. Meanwhile the rest of what used to be Iraq will degenerate into chaos and turn into yet another base/recruiting region for al Qaida.

We are going to be instituting a MacArthurian Regency; and it shall likely work. I have explained the reasons why it work in Iraq before, and they still stand.